Region 8 National Hunting and Fishing Day?

[Doc]

So is it true, as Canandaigua Daily Messenger outdoor columnists Len Lisenbee stated, that the Livingston County Federation of Sportsmen were notified last week that the DEC would no longer serve as host of the National Hunting and Fishing Day celebration? And that a permit allowing for all of the various activities would not be issued? Is the DEC getting out of the business of promoting hunting fishing and trapping? What exactly are they trying to tell us? Does this new attitude toward hunting, fishing and trapping extend beyond Region 8?

[growalot]

That's what I heard this past weekend. I do not know if it is across the state...but it would not surprise me if it is only region 8.

[Doc]

That has always been one of the most positive promotion of outdoor activities going. Thousands of people were annually introduced to hunting and fishing and trapping and other outdoor activities because of that event. It was one of the most powerful offsetting showcases of these activities and now it appears that the DEC is trying to destroy it.

 

I wish I could find an internet link to Lisenbee's article. He went into a lot more depth about the change in attitudes of the DEC regarding hunters, fishermen, and trappers. Much as I have suspected, it appears that the composition and attitudes of the DEC has significantly shifted and its not in a direction that favors the sportsmen.

[Doc]

OK ..... Found it.....

http://www.mpnnow.com/article/20150618/SPORTS/150619558/0/SEARCH

[growalot]

I'd be interested in hearing a reason ...perhaps the lawyers claimed it was a liability due to not having the needed parking space...even though 5/20 is wild busy and I do not believe,at least I do not recall any accidents with the ppl walking from their parked cars along 5/20. We would go to Dads and walk down. What ever the excuse if it comes from reg. 8 I'm pretty sure it will be a lame one....

[phade]

I'm not really surprised, that event has gone downhill big time.

 

Costs for the spaces there doubled or tripled in the past couple years, too. My assumption is the regional budget made this event a loser profit-wise, thus they attempted to raise prices to break even and it hasn't worked, thus it getting the axe.

 

Not a real shocker.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by phade

[Doc]

I'm not really surprised, that event has gone downhill big time.

 

Costs for the spaces there doubled or tripled in the past couple years, too. My assumption is the regional budget made this event a loser profit-wise, thus they attempted to raise prices to break even and it hasn't worked, thus it getting the axe.

 

Not a real shocker.

I heard about the costs for the spaces going through the roof and could immediately see the results of fewer exhibits. It was almost like they were trying to kill it. And yes, the quality of the event did suffer.

 

I have to wonder exactly what actual costs they incur by basically letting the Livingston County Federation of sportsmen do the heavy lifting in terms of organizing and running the event. There was a time when the DEC pretty much ran the whole thing, and it truly was an enthusiastically run DEC event with heavy DEC participation. That hasn't been the case in a long time.

 

Today with concerns about hunter population, and their concerns about adequate hunter enthusiasm for doe harvests and out-of-control deer populations, one would think that promotion and education would be high on their goals. Especially with an event that is so heavily privately supported. I just find their whole attitude to be puzzling.

[landtracdeerhunter]

Should such an event " break even?". Millions of dollars are used for radio and television ads to promote New York state. Millions are spent to bring new business to New York at the expense of existing tax payers. I see no difference with an event like this one.

[phade]

I heard about the costs for the spaces going through the roof and could immediately see the results of fewer exhibits. It was almost like they were trying to kill it. And yes, the quality of the event did suffer.

 

I have to wonder exactly what actual costs they incur by basically letting the Livingston County Federation of sportsmen do the heavy lifting in terms of organizing and running the event. There was a time when the DEC pretty much ran the whole thing, and it truly was an enthusiastically run DEC event with heavy DEC participation. That hasn't been the case in a long time.

 

Today with concerns about hunter population, and their concerns about adequate hunter enthusiasm for doe harvests and out-of-control deer populations, one would think that promotion and education would be high on their goals. Especially with an event that is so heavily privately supported. I just find their whole attitude to be puzzling.

 

Payroll and liability expenses probably ruled the roost on this one. Even with the federation doing most of the work, there were plenty of DEC personnel on hand on premise, and as you probably know, they don't work for free.

 

Each region is managed with its own budget and I am sure this was purely a financial move. They couldn't make this event a break-even ordeal, thus it was shuttered.

[phade]

Should such an event " break even?". Millions of dollars are used for radio and television ads to promote New York state. Millions are spent to bring new business to New York at the expense of existing tax payers. I see no difference with an event like this one.

 

Yes. When you have X amount of dollars in your budget as a regional director, you need to adhere to it. I am fairly confident this is a cost-related measure.

 

The ads you speak of probably come from a budget out of the central office.

Edited June 25, 2015 by phade

[Paula]

There is a guy here at beagle club from Federation.… something. said he is not happy with dec or how venders were charged. They are having a same thing here in Mumford.

[phade]

The irony of Livingston Co Sprtsmen Fed. holding an event in a different county. Apparently it has come to that.

[Doc]

The irony of Livingston Co Sprtsmen Fed. holding an event in a different county. Apparently it has come to that.

Well yes, they probably thought it was appropriate to use a facility that partnered them with what they thought was an ally of sportsmen and women. I wonder what they think now. I wonder what we all should be thinking now. I guess we have gotten a little shot of reality.

[growalot]

I would think a regional director would include the appropriate amount for such an event in his region when he submitted his regional budget...Is that not part of a regional directors duties?

[Paula]

I think the guys name is Bob, but i could be wrong. Bob said that the price for spaces were to be according to size and the guy (DEC guy) was not doing that, no ryme or reason to the prices. It sounded to me like DEC only let the ones holding the event use the land because it was being used for that before DEC moved in.

So maybe the guy who was setting the prices for spots started doing it a few years ago, that is when the attendence started going down.

[Zag]

I'm not really surprised, that event has gone downhill big time.

 

Costs for the spaces there doubled or tripled in the past couple years, too. My assumption is the regional budget made this event a loser profit-wise, thus they attempted to raise prices to break even and it hasn't worked, thus it getting the axe.

 

Not a real shocker.

Agreed. I haven't gone in yrs. Last time I took my son we did a walk around and left. Seemed to be mostly a cheesy flea market.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Prices for spots hadnt gone up that much in the last few years, but attendance had dropped with visitor and exhibitors alike. To have a booth there, you had to have insurance at a specific minimum level. I know because I did the booking and whatnot for when our QDMA branch had a booth there for a couple of years. We didnt bother last year because of bad attendance.

 

The reasons why exhibitors dropped off was because of the insurance mandate combined with a rise in costs for the spots, then because there werent as many vendors, attendance dropped off, then more vendors dropped out and attendance continued to slide. It was a very pathetic showing the last two years. I can say that the guys running the NHFD there did a horrible job with getting the applications, etc out to past vendors and exhibitors. I dont think ours came in my mailbox until about a week before the event, and trying to get response from those guys was like pulling teeth. The insurance mandate stemmed from an incident where a woman dripped over a tent hold down rope and injured herself. She sued the DEC successfully.

 

I dont think its just region 8 though, I think the event has been axed state wide at any DEC facilities. I could be wrong about that though. Just what I heard.

[Doc]

I went for quite a few years in a row, and even exhibited as a representative of Avon Bowmen for a few years. But lately even though some of the displays and activities were quite interesting, they began to get repetitive. Nothing ever changed, and even some of the old vendors and sportsmen's organizations began to slowly thin out such that many of the displays that I did look forward to simply stopped coming.

 

On the last trip over, I questioned a lot of exhibitors and got the same story from each one. The costs were getting too high. And while I am sure that is the case, I also think that a lot of interest from rod & gun clubs and archery clubs and trappers organizations has been dwindling over the years. I remember back when I was involved, we spent a huge number of hours photographing and writing up presentations, and composing talks and seminar style of presentations. There was volumes of handouts and printed material that took a fair amount of dedication and effort from our club members. I can also say that almost all of the other exhibitors put in similar efforts that paid off with a NH&F day presentation that everyone wanted to see. I have not really seen any of that kind of enthusiasm in recent years and it surely shows in the participation and attendance. So, I am not sure just who is responsible, but I can say that it is a shared responsibility that runs all the way down to the individual sportsmen not giving a damn about putting on a good display that represents their individual interests.

 

Some of that is driven from the top, and I have seen huge changes in the participation of DEC personnel, to the point where it begins to look like their part in it all was completely limited to supplying the land. And now they want to pull that last connection with sportsmen. It appears that they really would rather specialize in environmental and pollution concerns than having anything to do with hunters, fishermen and trappers. And so it appears that we no longer have them as spokespeople for the support and growth of our outdoor activities, and that they have absolutely no interest in seeing any of these things maintained or in a growth situation. With that hole in the sportsmen's PR purposely created, they have shown their complete disinterest in that whole end of their activities. Yes, there are still many DEC employees that see value in it, but as Lisenbee points out, the management level of the DEC has been populated by lawyers and others who could really care less about promoting outdoor activities. Instead of fixing it, they are simply going to walk away from it.

[mike rossi]

delete this one....

Edited June 30, 2015 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

I went for quite a few years in a row, and even exhibited as a representative of Avon Bowmen for a few years. But lately even though some of the displays and activities were quite interesting, they began to get repetitive. Nothing ever changed, and even some of the old vendors and sportsmen's organizations began to slowly thin out such that many of the displays that I did look forward to simply stopped coming.

 

On the last trip over, I questioned a lot of exhibitors and got the same story from each one. The costs were getting too high. And while I am sure that is the case, I also think that a lot of interest from rod & gun clubs and archery clubs and trappers organizations has been dwindling over the years. I remember back when I was involved, we spent a huge number of hours photographing and writing up presentations, and composing talks and seminar style of presentations. There was volumes of handouts and printed material that took a fair amount of dedication and effort from our club members. I can also say that almost all of the other exhibitors put in similar efforts that paid off with a NH&F day presentation that everyone wanted to see. I have not really seen any of that kind of enthusiasm in recent years and it surely shows in the participation and attendance. So, I am not sure just who is responsible, but I can say that it is a shared responsibility that runs all the way down to the individual sportsmen not giving a damn about putting on a good display that represents their individual interests.

 

Some of that is driven from the top, and I have seen huge changes in the participation of DEC personnel, to the point where it begins to look like their part in it all was completely limited to supplying the land. And now they want to pull that last connection with sportsmen. It appears that they really would rather specialize in environmental and pollution concerns than having anything to do with hunters, fishermen and trappers. And so it appears that we no longer have them as spokespeople for the support and growth of our outdoor activities, and that they have absolutely no interest in seeing any of these things maintained or in a growth situation. With that hole in the sportsmen's PR purposely created, they have shown their complete disinterest in that whole end of their activities. Yes, there are still many DEC employees that see value in it, but as Lisenbee points out, the management level of the DEC has been populated by lawyers and others who could really care less about promoting outdoor activities. Instead of fixing it, they are simply going to walk away from it.

 

The entire DEC is not connected to sportsmen, Hunters refer to the DEC, when they should be referring to the BOW, the bureau of wildlife, a section of the DEC.

You are further implying that the upcoming staff even in the BOW are not hunters or even have first hand experience with hunting. That is correct, look at college enrollment.

I don't think all that has anything to do with the DECs decision relevant to the OP however. It is repetition, and hunting is becoming more and more esoteric, and as such fewer and fewer non-hunters, including youth, including the children of hunters, can relate. I have said this in other words over and over.... Urbanization and the electronic age contribute, but they are not causative by themselves.

Edited June 30, 2015 by mike rossi

[phade]

I would think a regional director would include the appropriate amount for such an event in his region when he submitted his regional budget...Is that not part of a regional directors duties?

 

It's the first and easiest thing to axe in a budget because its an ancillary add-on to the services provided by the region. Not only that, but I submit a $4M budget each year to my director, and there's alot of red marker that comes back to cut out, and that's "just the way it is."

[Doc]

It's the first and easiest thing to axe in a budget because its an ancillary add-on to the services provided by the region. Not only that, but I submit a $4M budget each year to my director, and there's alot of red marker that comes back to cut out, and that's "just the way it is."

It's true that PR activities are easy to axe out if the DEC truly is afflicted with short range vision. NYS doesn't seem to have that kind of problem with blowing millions on advertising the tourism industry. I suspect the "I Love New York" TV ads aren't exactly cheap. But when it comes to the DEC, I can't say that I have ever seen anything that could be mistaken for forward thinking and recognizing expenditures that could have huge returns in the future. Their move toward cutting off support for outdoor activities and the participants does not exactly indicate the recognition of the importance of having healthy numbers of hunters, fishermen and trappers as partners in their game management activities. But that's becoming old news.

 

So it isn't really a question of how easy it is to sacrifice support and encouragement of sportsmen and women, but rather a question of the wisdom of sacrificing it. I really wonder if they can even see the value of supporting programs that grow these activities. A well organized and operated National Hunting and fishing day can pay off huge dividends in recruitment of future license buyers, if they really could see that far.

 

[growalot]

That would take work..What are you thinking!

[phade]

It's true that PR activities are easy to axe out if the DEC truly is afflicted with short range vision. NYS doesn't seem to have that kind of problem with blowing millions on advertising the tourism industry. I suspect the "I Love New York" TV ads aren't exactly cheap. But when it comes to the DEC, I can't say that I have ever seen anything that could be mistaken for forward thinking and recognizing expenditures that could have huge returns in the future. Their move toward cutting off support for outdoor activities and the participants does not exactly indicate the recognition of the importance of having healthy numbers of hunters, fishermen and trappers as partners in their game management activities. But that's becoming old news.

 

So it isn't really a question of how easy it is to sacrifice support and encouragement of sportsmen and women, but rather a question of the wisdom of sacrificing it. I really wonder if they can even see the value of supporting programs that grow these activities. A well organized and operated National Hunting and fishing day can pay off huge dividends in recruitment of future license buyers, if they really could see that far.

 

 

The show has been LOUSY the past few years, so it hasn't been working. I am sure more effort could be done, but it's pretty clear they are not interested in that. Finances just killed it off, that's all.

[Doc]

The show has been LOUSY the past few years, so it hasn't been working. I am sure more effort could be done, but it's pretty clear they are not interested in that. Finances just killed it off, that's all.

The question is, does this go farther than just finances? Does it indicate a change in attitude toward hunters, fishermen and trappers? .... perhaps a genuine dis-interest or worse. Is there an attitude of antagonism between hunters and the DEC that is starting to show here? I get the feeling that there is more than just a financial component to this action and all the attitude over recent years that has led to the destruction of this event.