Is CWD a Threat To Hunting

[Larry]

Here is some info I posted Different thread It’s up to decide if the studies done by states, the CDC and universities is BS or not.

Now for some facts, it is a proven fact that CWD is fatal to deer, elk and moose theirs no dispute on this. CWD is also similar to Mad Cow disease (bovine spongiform encephalopathy). The first known cases were discovered in an enclosed herd of captive mule deer in the late 1960s in research facilities in Colorado. In New York the only cases of CWD were found in and around a captive herd. The source may have been the connected taxidermy shop.
  CWD and Mad Cow are caused by a pathogenic effect on neurons of an abnormal isoform of a host-encoded glycoprotein, the prion protein.
When Mad Cow disease showed up in Britain they said it could not jump the species barrier well it did and is now linked to Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in humans.
If CWD is ever found to be able to jump the species barrier it would end hunting as we know it in the US that’s my concern

[Four Season Whitetail's]

0 replies and only 58 people even opened the page..Yet the post on..Acorns Dropping..gets over 500 views!  Guess that answers your question about this drummed up political crap and what people think. 

 

Yeah a few deer may get it, Even less will ever live long enough to die from it and its been proven not to do any harm to any deer herds in any state and proven not to harm humans.  

 

Shall we sit back and worry for the next 60 years and see if something that has caused no harm for the last 60 years may mutate into something?

 

What ever happened to Ebola?

[dbHunterNY]

some are just too tired to talk about it.   .....again. 

 

I don't think it should be ignored.  I don't think we should fear it like a cancer either.  Fortunately it's not something we really deal with here.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

some are just too tired to talk about it.   .....again. 

 

I don't think it should be ignored.  I don't think we should fear it like a cancer either.  Fortunately it's not something we really deal with here.

how can that be?  Remember...They tell you that once its in place somewhere you can never eradicate the stuff.  We had it 10 years ago behind wire and in the wild. Tell me those deer did not touch other deer?  Tell me those deer did not wizz on the forest floor or other deer in that area has not eaten in those areas the last 10 years?   Cant have it both ways.  Its been so blown out of proportion by the aganda pushers its silly. And now after all these years CWD itself is proven that their thoughts hold no water.

 

Now they say its in Corn and Alfalfa yet all these CWD states are top Ag states sending out millions of tons of this stuff a year all across the world. Yeah Ok!   Look on the bright side..They now say Bile Acid has been shown to have an effect on the prion.

 

You know..They cut a mouses brain up..Inject the prion into the brain and then put acid on it to kill it.  Gotta love how they just keep looking for stuff to find something else. lol

[dbHunterNY]

it's a disease based prevalence and it doesn't seem to be very prevalent around here.  also it might not take hold to make a deer look like a mess with rabies until a later age.  maybe that adds to it being quiet here.  we've got bio and rat labs out this way always looking into stuff.  that's the thing about diseases they aren't a simple science.

 

...still when I process my deer I avoid things.  i don't hack saw through the bones.  don't mess with the brain, eyes, spinal column etc.... or cut through lymph nodes. does it help?  idk... maybe maybe not but it sure doesn't hurt.

[knehrke]

I guess I'm one of those guys who inject mice and pour acid onto their brains 

 

I'm a Professor of Medicine at the University of Rochester Medical Center and a permanent member of the National Institute of Health's Neural Oxidative Metabolism and Death study section. As well as an avid bowhunter and long-time member (occasional contributor) here.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. And you can never prove a model, only disprove it...that's one of the main tenets of science. However, the people who do prion research are striving to understand a complex and deadly group of diseases. One that frankly scares the crap out of me. Nearly all neurodegenerative diseases involve protein aggregation. In prion diseases, the proteins themselves are the vector for transmission. Nobody is saying that the sky is falling, but given the choice, doesn't it make sense to be cautious when you're dealing with something that's deadly and, as you point out, not that well understood?

 

Let me be clear in stating that most scientists don't have an agenda. There's more questions out there than there are people to answer them. The people I know work on things that they feel could make a real impact or could head-off a potential problem. They follow strict sets of rules and are subject to constant internal and external review. Most people don't realize that when scientist disagree, there's not some ethical breach, it's just part of the process. It's about interpreting the data and achieving consensus.

 

But in order to interpret it, you have to understand it. As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't mean to offend. But please keep an open mind and remember that scientists, who often make enormous sacrifices to do what they do, also have opinions. Yes, I said opinions. But they are opinions based on fact and filtered through years of training. It doesn't make sense to have experts work for years to understand something, then discard their findings because it doesn't fit your personal view.

 

And my guess is that most scientists who study prion diseases, of which CWD is one, have no idea that deer are farmed commercially. In the bigger picture, CWD is a smaller concern than the stuff that actually kills people. From which we can apply our models to CWD. And maybe prevent a disaster. If we're proactive.

 

Always learning or never learning.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I guess I'm one of those guys who inject mice and pour acid onto their brains 

 

I'm a Professor of Medicine at the University of Rochester Medical Center and a permanent member of the National Institute of Health's Neural Oxidative Metabolism and Death study section. As well as an avid bowhunter and long-time member (occasional contributor) here.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. And you can never prove a model, only disprove it...that's one of the main tenets of science. However, the people who do prion research are striving to understand a complex and deadly group of diseases. One that frankly scares the crap out of me. Nearly all neurodegenerative diseases involve protein aggregation. In prion diseases, the proteins themselves are the vector for transmission. Nobody is saying that the sky is falling, but given the choice, doesn't it make sense to be cautious when you're dealing with something that's deadly and, as you point out, not that well understood?

 

Let me be clear in stating that most scientists don't have an agenda. There's more questions out there than there are people to answer them. The people I know work on things that they feel could make a real impact or could head-off a potential problem. They follow strict sets of rules and are subject to constant internal and external review. Most people don't realize that when scientist disagree, there's not some ethical breach, it's just part of the process. It's about interpreting the data and achieving consensus.

 

But in order to interpret it, you have to understand it. As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't mean to offend. But please keep an open mind and remember that scientists, who often make enormous sacrifices to do what they do, also have opinions. Yes, I said opinions. But they are opinions based on fact and filtered through years of training. It doesn't make sense to have experts work for years to understand something, then discard their findings because it doesn't fit your personal view.

 

And my guess is that most scientists who study prion diseases, of which CWD is one, have no idea that deer are farmed commercially. In the bigger picture, CWD is a smaller concern than the stuff that actually kills people. From which we can apply our models to CWD. And maybe prevent a disaster. If we're proactive.

 

Always learning or never learning.

Yes and No...Yes you be cautious but not to the point of ruining peoples lives over something that the so called experts cant even agree on and one of which the disease itself has shown and proven itself as to what it is....Something that deer can contract and die from!  But facts also show that 99.9% of deer will never live long enough to die from it.  

 

Prevent a disaster you say?  Really!   After 60 years of having no ill effects on land, animal or man you speak of disaster?

 

Opinions are made of facts and truths.

 

No disrespect but to try and get us to believe that scientist do not know about how big deer farming is all across the country and the numbers involved as they study this stuff tells me they have not done all their homework.  Sorry...Cant swallow that one!

 

Whats your thoughts of all these prions being spread all across the country in every truck load of Corn and Alfalfa that comes out of every one of these CWD positive states?

Edited September 18, 2015 by Four Season Whitetails

[phade]

Looks like somebody brought their knife to the gun fight.

[knehrke]

Prion diseases are dangerous exactly because of what we don't know about their mode of transmission  And my point about deer farming is that...no offense intended...it's somewhat lower of a concern than human health. Like most neurodegenerative diseases, prions may not kill an organism. But make no mistake, there are consequences. So yes, a deer might die of old age with CWD. But how do you measure dementia in a deer? This is why most mouse models of human neurodegenerative disease fail to show age-related pathologies. Mice die at two years of age. How much longer do people live than deer? That's a lot of years for the disease to manifest itself. It makes sense to be concerned.

 

Now, maybe there's an overreaction at the legislative level. But scientists don't make laws. I can't say I follow CWD closely, as there are other health concerns that steal my time and focus. And I can't claim to be an expert on CWD specifically. But, from an informed perspective, prion diseases in general are scary. What if it turns out that CWD jumps species and ends up a new Alzheimers? There's precedent: think HIV. I wouldn't just dismiss the potential impact based upon your experience, sound though it may be.

 

Since I have no vested interest or agenda here (nor virtual knife or gun, funny as that was...), this is where I stop. I'm not in the business of trying to change peoples' minds, just opening them. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by knehrke

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Prion diseases are dangerous exactly because of what we don't know about their mode of transmission  And my point about deer farming is that...no offense intended...it's somewhat lower of a concern than human health. Like most neurodegenerative diseases, prions may not kill an organism. But make no mistake, there are consequences. So yes, a deer might die of old age with CWD. But how do you measure dementia in a deer? This is why most mouse models of human neurodegenerative disease fail to show age-related pathologies. Mice die at two years of age. How much longer do people live than deer? That's a lot of years for the disease to manifest itself. It makes sense to be concerned.

 

Now, maybe there's an overreaction at the legislative level. But scientists don't make laws. I can't say I follow CWD closely, as there are other health concerns that steal my time and focus. And I can't claim to be an expert on CWD specifically. But, from an informed perspective, prion diseases in general are scary. What if it turns out that CWD jumps species and ends up a new Alzheimers? There's precedent: think HIV. I wouldn't just dismiss the potential impact based upon your experience, sound though it may be.

 

Since I have no vested interest or agenda here (nor virtual knife or gun, funny as that was...), this is where I stop. I'm not in the business of trying to change peoples' minds, just opening them. 

Well i would not run off so fast. I understand the concern but after 60 years and nothing how long do you run scared and ruin peoples lives over a..What If?   If what if was going to happen dont you think 60 years would have shown something?

 

The thing i dont get about you science guys is that you report on something you made.Lets take whitetail urine...You white coats inject CWD prions into urine and then into a mouse and make him positive.  Yet there has never been a case of the CWD prion found in a natural growing whitetail. Even 100% proven node and brain positive whitetails yet nothing in the urine.

Now i get the jist of this but i bet you could inject that mouse with something to force hair growth and it would grow a beard.

 

This what if this and what if that is a scare tactic used by those with agendas and they get their ammo from your research.  Nobody wants CWD and wishes that man would have left things alone and quit playing with mother nature.

 

Remember one thing...It was your white coats that made this prion way back when with Scrapies in sheep and it just jumped to deer and givin a new name.  

Science is important no doubt but when after 40-60 years  does one say enough is enough?  I believe if you look at a few states like Wisconsin they have already said it and the federal Govt said it way back when after they pulled all funding.

 

Ebola Anyone!

[Buckstopshere]

I was intrigued by a study, and I would have to find the link, that tried to get captive deer to contract CWD for research purposes by keeping them in close proximity to elk or deer that had tested positive for CWD. Bottom line, those test animals did not contract the disease. From what I have read, there is a lot more to CWD than we know now. But jumping up and down, running around and screaming, making laws and all kinds of rules, coming off half-cocked is so typical of our society today. If you point fingers at the deer farm today as having "a vested interest" and therefore its info is incorrect, what about the contrary? What about the people who are hired by the state to monitor these things? They make money from it too...just on the other side, so to speak. Govt. regulators have to justify their jobs. And don't think they are saints.  So if everybody has a vested interest, it is a wash. And instead of pointing fingers and saying this guy or that is a bad guy, wouldn't the logical path be one that talks about the science?

[jjb4900]

I've said it in the past, and might be totally wrong, but I believe most of these diseases are not new......the only thing new is that now they run tests for everything and have a finger to point at the cause........

[wooly]

I was intrigued by a study, and I would have to find the link, that tried to get captive deer to contract CWD for research purposes by keeping them in close proximity to elk or deer that had tested positive for CWD. Bottom line, those test animals did not contract the disease.

 

Maybe I'm confusing this with something else, but I thought they couldn't test for CWD on live animals?

How would they know that the elk and deer they were trying to pass on CWD actually had it to pass on to begin with.

That must have been some barbecue they had at the close of that study,lol

[jjb4900]

I would think that forcing animals that are already infected with a disease, to closely interact with animals that aren't, would give a false report on the severity of it......kinda like putting people in a cage with one having aids and not telling the others and allowing them to have sex...and then coming to the conclusion that people who live in close proximity to one another and interact normally spread the disease.

Edited September 19, 2015 by jjb4900

[Buckstopshere]

Well, good questions...out of my area of expertise so I am just talking off the top of my head... But if I was running research, I would attempt to find a way to repeat the experiment. Then it seems logical that  we could isolate the cause by focusing on the variables and eliminating them one by one. But if as reported "Wyoming did a 13-year study in which cows were put in deer pens heavily infected with CWD, and none of the cows became infected." It would be as you said, if people were put in an enclosure and had sex (or swapped bodily fluids) with those testing positive with HIV and none...zero came away with testing positive for AIDs, then we would have to go back to the drawing board. My point is there is too much emotion involved and not enough objective science.

[The_Field_Ager]

Prion diseases are dangerous exactly because of what we don't know about their mode of transmission.

 

 

With all due respect: The various forms of neurodegenerative disorders that may or may not be caused by Prions ( from my limited reading, this is a controversy unto itself) are incurable and no viable treatments exist for any of them once the disease has manifested. This would suggest that it is the natural history of the disease itself that is dangerous combined with science's inability to halt this history, irrespective of how it may or may not be transmitted. Finding out the mode of transmission in no way makes the disease any less fatal or dangerous.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Papist

[The_Field_Ager]

 I'm not in the business of trying to change peoples' minds, just opening them. 

 

 

So are you a scientist or a philosopher? 

[Buckstopshere]

This subject is a bit painful to discuss, by nonetheless important because my family and I basically live on venison and have for decades. I shoot a lot of deer. The little ones, the grand-kids, run around with a stick of jerky as soon as they are old enough to walk. We rarely buy beef and pork and eat free range chickens and buy a free range lamb at the fair each year. We grill a lot of deer meat and I am just about out...as it should be just before the season starts.

[jjb4900]

it's fairly obvious that if someone or something is put into an environment where they are FORCED to interact with the source of a disease, that we can determine how it is transmitted...the question is, how easily or to what extent is it transmitted in a natural environment.....

[Four Season Whitetail's]

CWD does suck and i also believe its been around forever. It is the same prion as Scrapies in sheep. There is a live test for CWD that has proven itself to be 85% accurate but thr USDA will not accept that as a viable test for deer farmers because its not 100%.  Well the funny thing is..We have to Tb test or herds every 3 years and that test is only 70% accurate and they are fine with that.

 

All these states that are bringing in Elk from CWD positive states and Untested states are using this live test before they bring them in and they are calling them CWD tested animals.  Funny how that works.

 

This was just another shot taken by some to try and stop or atleast slow down the growth of Deer Farms and High Fence hunting...Didnt work again!  

 

Now they claim they want to stop the spread of CWD so they outlaw the use of deer urine from farms. Now there has never been a documented case of the CWD prion being found in any whitetail urine in the wild or fenced and that includes 100% brain and Node positive animals?  Strange Huh?  But on the other hand there is 100% proof of the prion being found in Corn and Alfalfa yet they do nothing to stop big Ag and stop the harvesting and sales of corn and hay from any CWD positive states?  Strange Huh?   The corn on you local Agway store very well could be loaded with the prions after being harvested for Wisconsin and you but it to feed deer,cows,chickens,whatever and you just threw CWD prions all over the ground in your own backyard to infect that land for the next 16 plus years!  Strange Huh?

[Larry]

Any one see the article in DEER & DEER HUNTING about CWD it is very informative and up to date on the research that is going on, on this disease.
It’s a must read

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Any one see the article in DEER & DEER HUNTING about CWD it is very informative and up to date on the research that is going on, on this disease.

It’s a must read

Are you talking about the Texas case?  That one is real funny. They find CWD in the wild in 2012 and you hear nothing...Now the wild herd again passes it along to a farmed animal and some are up in arms.  Typical.

 

I think the best part is that any hunter can have their animals tested free of charge and payed by the state but any owners of whitetails that want a sample done has to cover the full shot out of pocket.   Nah...No such thing as agendas,  The lawsuit was filed in that state this afternoon.  You will see another outcome like we did in Iowa and the taxpayers will be charged millions yet again.

 

Will the never learn?

[knehrke]

With all due respect: The various forms of neurodegenerative disorders that may or may not be caused by Prions ( from my limited reading, this is a controversy unto itself) are incurable and no viable treatments exist for any of them once the disease has manifested. This would suggest that it is the natural history of the disease itself that is dangerous combined with science's inability to halt this history, irrespective of how it may or may not be transmitted. Finding out the mode of transmission in no way makes the disease any less fatal or dangerous.

 

Okay, my grants are reviewed and I can weigh in here...briefly.

 

Right you are that understanding how transmission occurs doesn't make a disease less deadly. But it may prevent people from getting it. Seminal progress made with many diseases has involved just that critical insight. For example, malaria and mosquitoes. If you identify the vector, you can inform the public how to combat spreading. Not a cure, but important nonetheless.

 

As for the other post: scientist or philosopher? Is there a difference???    <---that's my "white coat" emoticon  

 

Hoping everyone is having a great season so far! Stay safe.

Edited October 3, 2015 by knehrke

[Larry]

the citations are all from 2014 and 2015. I would think D & DH would check their sources unlike a trade magazine that panders to a specific group. If you haven’t read then read it. If want to dig deep check the citation remember this any research study is at lease peer reviewed. (still maybe bias ) but a OP ED piece is bias.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

the citations are all from 2014 and 2015. I would think D & DH would check their sources unlike a trade magazine that panders to a specific group. If you haven’t read then read it. If want to dig deep check the citation remember this any research study is at lease peer reviewed. (still maybe bias ) but a OP ED piece is bias.  

Must be i missed the one you are speaking of. Citations?  I know of the case in Texas but not of any citations.  Will see if i can locate it.