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I'm changing my stance on XBOWS


Buckmaster7600
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were there any footnotes to this long term study. I just can't get that math to work or we wouldn't have the large   population increases we have seen in many of the Western NY WMU's. The average for a buck to sire a fawn over his entire breeding life isn't 2?

 

when they say the does come into heat at the "same time" it is generally within a 2 week window.  (so 14 days.). if the average is 48 hours tending and a day to find another. that is almost 5 does breed. Add into that the possibilities of multiple cycles. 2 maybe 3. could be 10-15 per buck?

 

 

I'm just passing on the info...draw your own conclusions. Facts are in PA  40% of buck harvest removed in archery...big increase since x-bows legal.

 

Last year buck harvest fell 11.2% while doe dropped 15.5% compared to previous year. Everyone here claims predators reason for poor recruitment. PGC keeps cutting antlerless permits and shorting season to 7 days from 12 for doe. NY doesn't appear to be having a recruitment problem...why not?  BTW, archery accounted for about 25% of your buck harvest...keep it climbing and you'll be like PA.

Edited by Freytown
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I used to hate the ideas of XBOWS being allowed during archery seasons. After the amount of deer that I have hear of being wounded lately both on this sight and among friends with verticle bows. I feel that XBOWS could have changed this. It takes little to no practise to kill an animal with one. I think we as outdoorsman we owe it to the animal we are trying to kill to utilize the most efficient method available. I'm sure some will disagree as I would have a few months ago. But it is hard to argue that to become proficient with a verticle bow it takes shooting thousands of arrows annually, and some are not willing or able to do that. Now I know some will argue that mistakes will happen and I totally agree but I also know that the archers who shoot year round and shoot thousands of arrows a year are far less likely to wound an animal.

Of all the reasons for inclusion of crossbows, this is the line of logic that I have the biggest problem with. That is because what is being said here is that the bow is an inadequate deer hunting weapon because there are people who refuse to devote the effort to shoot them well. That line of thinking has no limit to it. It says that anytime a hunting season has any challenge to the weapon of use, more advanced weapons should be continually added until the requirement of skill goes away. Taking that to its logical conclusion says that the creation of a bow season was a mistake. Bow season was created to allow a special time of year for using a weapon of a unique skill (challenge). Obviously the bow creates a need for an additional level of effort and responsibility to accommodate that challenge. This argument basically says that weapons technology has to be added to all special seasons until the weapons of maximum ease are included for those that lack the will to devote the time and effort to become proficient. Bow season was created for exactly the opposite reason. It was designed specifically for the addition of challenge. So this idea that skill needs to be taken out of hunting as much as possible goes right at the heart of any of the special seasons that promote the use of challenging weapons. Take away the challenge of the weapon, and you have taken away the fundamental reason for the special season because the ultimate most efficient weapon with the least amount of required skill is the rifle.

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Doc I agree 100% but im looking at it for the animals sake. Not everyone is willing to devote the time needed to use vertical archery tackle but still take it to the field.

Then maybe the discussion should center on whether  a bow season should still be maintained at all. I'm sure it is only a matter of time before that thought gets argued in earnest (for the very same reasons). In fact, in many gun circles, that thought is already a hot topic.

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I agree with the bottom part however you and I think like that but many do not so why not give them another "easier" avenue. As far as banning verticle bows if many of the "hunters" that don't have time to practise or that just don't had the ability to use XBOWS all bow season they would be stupid not because their success rate would go up.

I don't see where I said "if WE were?"

 

because everything in life isn't meant to be easy. that's what makes bow hunting great. the challenge and the reward. it's supposed to be hard.

 

otherwise we would all just raise deer in pens like cows and harvest our venison that way right?

 

stop the pussification of america buy trying to make everything easy and instant!

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Then maybe the discussion should center on whether a bow season should still be maintained at all. I'm sure it is only a matter of time before that thought gets argued in earnest (for the very same reasons). In fact, in many gun circles, that thought is already a hot topic.

I have never thought about it like that Doc very good point. I think we are safe for a long time based on the revenue that comes from the archery world.

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Doc I agree 100% but im looking at it for the animals sake. Not everyone is willing to devote the time needed to use vertical archery tackle but still take it to the field.

 

then we as a group need to continue to pressure against those who don't put in the time. Self policing is the best thing we as hunters can do. Everytime we shrug off a hunter's poor ethics and training we fuel the fire for anti's, we fuel the fire for more asinine DEC rules and regs. If you know of family or friends who don't put in the effort they should to bow hunt you need to let them hear it. At the end of the day, we cannot change the actions of others (any married person knows this), however we can do our best to influence them. It needs to be unpopular and socially unacceptable to enter the woods with the stick and string unprepared.

 

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because everything in life isn't meant to be easy. that's what makes bow hunting great. the challenge and the reward. it's supposed to be hard.

otherwise we would all just raise deer in pens like cows and harvest our venison that way right?

stop the pussification of america buy trying to make everything easy and instant!

How do you suggest we fix the problem, every year there are more bow hunters. It's one of the only growing parts of hunting other than predator

And many of the new archers are going about it the right way but a lot are not.

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How do you suggest we fix the problem, every year there are more bow hunters. It's one of the only growing parts of hunting other than predator

And many of the new archers are going about it the right way but a lot are not.

 

I'm not sure it is a problem. We don't have any data on wounded archery deer as far as I know. I do recall some studies done in the past that actually showed the opposite. It showed more deer were wounded by gun hunters than archery. This was a while back when archery hunters were put in the spotlight by antis.

 

fact is, you can lose a deer with any weapon. Even the best and most ethical hunter will lose deer. It's a shitty part of our sport.

 

Personally, I believe archers are generally more dedicated passionate hunters given the time and money it takes to be successful at it. What do we do about the guys spraying shells at running deer on deer drives?

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wonder what happens when they report these out of season kills?? and some people blame this on trickery used by DEC, really??

 

Speaking of out of season kills,

 

I work with a man who finally fessed up...he had been quite distant and quiet lately... well He didn't read the rules and regs to close for 2015 deer seasons... Hunting in antlerless only zone, he thought October 15th was the start up day for Antlered harvest... Well like the book says, He was wrong.. He actually ended up harvesting the biggest buck of his life, a 150" 10 point.. dressed 210lbs... called in the harvest to DEC hotline that night... and to his surprise, the DEC being at the butchers the next day.. gathered his deer... meat antlers and all.. went to his house with the buck, and wrote him citations.. followed by a court date... We will see how lucky he gets off... just a fine, or maybe even loss of license for some time??

 

This is why people need to pick up the book or get online and do there homework..

 

sucks to be him, though hopefully he learned from his mistake.. i dont really feel bad for him

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I'm not sure it is a problem. We don't have any data on wounded archery deer as far as I know. I do recall some studies done in the past that actually showed the opposite. It showed more deer were wounded by gun hunters than archery. This was a while back when archery hunters were put in the spotlight by antis.

fact is, you can lose a deer with any weapon. Even the best and most ethical hunter will lose deer. It's a shitty part of our sport.

Personally, I believe archers are generally more dedicated passionate hunters given the time and money it takes to be successful at it. What do we do about the guys spraying shells at running deer on deer drives?

It seems like in this site there is a miss or a wound for every kill.
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Full inclusion doesn't bother me personally. I have no issue with crossbow hunters being in the woods while I'm out with my vert.

Practice is a big thing. A vert bow takes more dedication and practice then any other weapon. Bending at the waist, keeping the grip loose, breathing, waiting for the right shot, and keeping focus at full draw isn't easy. Throw in you have to practice from many different positions, standing, sitting, and kneeling are the top ones. You also have to practice from an elevated area if you are hunting from a tree stand.

I don't think you need to shoot thousands of arrows. But at least 6 arrows a few times a week is a must for a couple months before and during the season. It keeps muscle memory, gets you consistent, and you start to learn when a shot didn't feel right.

I also feel part of it has to do with the people who say "if you can keep the group inside a paper plate you are OK". This one has always irritated me even with guns. Having your shots all over the place in a 9-10" area isn't consistency, and you shouldn't be in the woods shooting at any game with that mentality. Your goal should be to be to get your groups as tight as possible. I am not talking 6 arrows and all have to touch, but keeping them as tight and consistent as possible sure does help.

There just to many factors with a vert bow to go in half cocked.

As for the mentoring issue? It's great to have someone help you learn, and there is no better training you can get then being in the woods with someone explaining things to you.

But, today, it's not 100% necessary. There is so much information out there via the web you just need to read, and in the off season go out and learn the woods. No mentor can keep you from making a bad shot or and other bad decision. They won't be taking the shot for you and will not be right there to make decisions for you.

 

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Speaking of out of season kills,

 

I work with a man who finally fessed up...he had been quite distant and quiet lately... well He didn't read the rules and regs to close for 2015 deer seasons... Hunting in antlerless only zone, he thought October 15th was the start up day for Antlered harvest... Well like the book says, He was wrong.. He actually ended up harvesting the biggest buck of his life, a 150" 10 point.. dressed 210lbs... called in the harvest to DEC hotline that night... and to his surprise, the DEC being at the butchers the next day.. gathered his deer... meat antlers and all.. went to his house with the buck, and wrote him citations.. followed by a court date... We will see how lucky he gets off... just a fine, or maybe even loss of license for some time??

 

This is why people need to pick up the book or get online and do there homework..

 

sucks to be him, though hopefully he learned from his mistake.. i dont really feel bad for him

The sad part is that many hunters will take a different lesson from this. Instead of "know the regs," it's "this is why you don't report your kill."

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+1 on the above two posts. But the thread isn't about the regs. It is more about learning to use the right weapon or use a different one.

problem is, as the saying goes "you can't fix stupid".........give a certain person a hammer and he'll crush his thumb, give him a screwdriver and he'll stab it through his palm, give him a saw and he'll cut his finger off.....well, you get the point.

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I know there are some folks out there who live for bow-hunting and are willing to put in the effort to become very proficient with that weapon.  Where I have a problem is when they don't want to share "their" deer with folks who may lack the strength, or time to attain such proficiency.  That is pretty much pure selfish elitism.  There are plenty of deer to go around but they do deserve to be killed cleanly.  If the crossbow can help us "lazier"  folks do that, why keep them out?   We need all the hunters we can get.   If you hunt with a vertical bow, you have got to be willing to accept some misses, and some woundings.  This site is especially loaded with examples of that this year.   

 

Obviously no one wants to wound deer, but some of us are bothered more than others by that.   I only missed a deer once with my bow, over 30 years, but I did wound a few that I did not recover.   I have forgotten some of my clean kills, but none of the woundings.   I know for certain that one of those fully recovered, as a friend harvested him a month later with a healed up shoulder blade.  Two others I hit there likely did ok also, but the one I hit too far back will always haunt me.  I was always "done for the season" with the bow on those years.  I cringe every time I see folks tell those who wound deer to "get back out there and try again".  I say "get to the range", or "hang it up for the year, learn from your mistake, and do better next season".  

 

While I cant speak for anyone else, I know that in my hands at least, a deer is far less likely to be wounded from my crossbow than my vertical bow.  There is simply no comparison in the accuracy I can achieve firing a scoped crossbow from a rest, and a vertical bow with pin & peep sights offhand.  I can pick out a hair I want to hit at 50 yards with that crossbow, while I am limited to a pie-plate at 30 yards with my vertical.  For that reason, I doubt I will pick up my vertical again for deer hunting.   Sure it would be nice to get out there for all of archery season, but I am thankful that we at least got the best two weeks.   I like it cold for deer hunting, so I didn't miss anything on this warm season so far anyhow.   Saturday's cold forecast looks perfect for the opener.           

Edited by wolc123
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While I cant speak for anyone else, I know that in my hands at least, a deer is far less likely to be wounded from my crossbow than my vertical bow.  There is simply no comparison in the accuracy I can achieve firing a scoped crossbow from a rest, and a vertical bow with pin & peep sights offhand.  I can pick out a hair I want to hit at 50 yards with that crossbow, while I am limited to a pie-plate at 30 yards with my vertical.  For that reason, I doubt I will pick up my vertical again for deer hunting.           

And the fact is that no crossbow is as reliable at quick and humane kills as a scoped rifle. So if your overwhelming concern is to be always using the most reliable weapon for a quick kill then bow season was not created for you. Throw down that clunky crossbow and pick up a rifle and end your concerns. Do not muck around in the season of those that have entered the bowseason with a desire to use and accept the handicap of a bow.

 

And my answer for those that refer to themselves as lazy, and undedicated, and too busy to use the bow season correctly and responsibly is to get the hell out of bow season and get your deer with the gun in the proper season. That is a weapon that is more in tune with the ability, responsibilities, and effort that you are willing to undertake. Why try to pry your way into a season that is not compatible with your lifestyle?

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The way I see it, there should either be full inclusion, or if crossbow has a separate season then compound bow should have the exact same season.  If you want to hunt with longbow or recurve and feel as though you need a special season then I am actually fine with that.  However, in my opinion compounds and crossbows should be restricted to the same seasons.  They are both mechanically assisted, and arguing that compounds are more "traditional" than crossbows is like arguing whether dirt bikes or Harleys are more like bicycles.

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I know there are some folks out there who live for bow-hunting and are willing to put in the effort to become very proficient with that weapon.  Where I have a problem is when they don't want to share "their" deer with folks who may lack the strength, or time to attain such proficiency.  That is pretty much pure selfish elitism.  There are plenty of deer to go around but they do deserve to be killed cleanly.  If the crossbow can help us "lazier"  folks do that, why keep them out?   We need all the hunters we can get.   If you hunt with a vertical bow, you have got to be willing to accept some misses, and some woundings.  This site is especially loaded with examples of that this year.   

 

Sharing our deer... good one. If you want it bad enough you can make the time. I have a 3 year old a 9 month old and a full-time job and I get it done. I sacrifice other things in my life because I want it that bad.

 

If you don't want it, you can wait till gun season and probably still do just fine. Assuming it's meat and not horns you're after right?

 

Hard workers should be helping lazier folks out you say? Please kindly move to the side and cast your vote for Bernie Sanders. We are done here.

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