Environmental Assessment: White-tailed Deer Damage Management in New York

[Doc]

No Doubt, Doc you know as well as i do that the Ny DEC will do whatever it takes to get money from hunters. Now things may be getting tight now that farmers and Ins companies are on their arse to keep numbers down. This year alone i would bet some hang up hunting because of no deer sighting. DEC has to figure what pays better...Hunters or Farms and Ins companies?

The problem is that the DEC Commissioner is appointed by Cuomo. And whatever political lobbying and pressure that Cuomo receives from the moneyed interests of the state including campaign contributors gets passed down to lackey that he put in charge of the DEC. The DEC gets the word via political command.

[Rebel Darling]

The problem is that the DEC Commissioner is appointed by Cuomo. And whatever political lobbying and pressure that Cuomo receives from the moneyed interests of the state including campaign contributors gets passed down to lackey that he put in charge of the DEC. The DEC gets the word via political command.

 

 

No Doubt, Doc you know as well as i do that the Ny DEC will do whatever it takes to get money from hunters. Now things may be getting tight now that farmers and Ins companies are on their arse to keep numbers down. This year alone i would bet some hang up hunting because of no deer sighting. DEC has to figure what pays better...Hunters or Farms and Ins companies?

 

 

It does seem a bit like tailoring the job description, or the RFP for one applicant, or contractor...

[tuckersdaddy]

I do get a chuckle out of some of these posts. a few posters are the same people that refused to bow hunt the first 2 weeks in doe only areas. then there is the land usage problems.... when the state land near over populated areas such as Cayuga heights get pressured up the deer do what deer do... run for the safe zones.. now the dec is left holding the bag on how to correct the over population at hand. the hunters won't do it.. the municipalities won't allow it.. government does what government does.. finds a solution that no one likes and makes it law. after this season everyone is under the impression that the deer Hurd is down. but what I saw is when it got cold, the wind blew and it the snow flew... 37 deer in 1 day on state land. 3 deer in the 3 weeks prior.. none after. I'm not a fan of how the dec manages the deer Hurd, but it does make me chuckle when as sportsman were asked to cull some doe but many won't because they don't have a big enough rack.

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[JFB]

Earn a buck program only works if you have the man power which DEC does not have. Add antler restrictions which would work the same way causing a person to take a doe instead of that spike chasing a non hot doe. They're would be no need for checks and would please majority of people except those that like to shoot 1.5 year old deer.

 

Disagree that earn a buck is any harder to enforce than any of their other regulations. Heck, they just put off entire WMU from buck hunting for the first 15 days and I'm fairly certain there were those not playing along. Things seem to change every year. How hard is it to not print a buck tag until a doe tag is filled? If you have to, charge an extra $5 to predesignated stores and DEC offices who you show the doe to. Cheaters will always cheat, but it could be done. 

[Doc]

I do get a chuckle out of some of these posts. a few posters are the same people that refused to bow hunt the first 2 weeks in doe only areas.

Don't confuse people refusing to be bullied into participating in a foolish, idiotic plan with refusing to do their part in harvesting deer. Those of us who see that doe-only, bowhunter-only, plan for what it truly is have no problem taking does. What we don't accept is the idea that doe harvests and deer population control is solely the responsibility of the smallest group of hunters shooting the most inefficient weapon. That plan and the way it was implemented cast a dark shadow over the credibility of the DEC sincerity about the problem.

[Doc]

Disagree that earn a buck is any harder to enforce than any of their other regulations. Heck, they just put off entire WMU from buck hunting for the first 15 days and I'm fairly certain there were those not playing along. Things seem to change every year. How hard is it to not print a buck tag until a doe tag is filled? If you have to, charge an extra $5 to predesignated stores and DEC offices who you show the doe to. Cheaters will always cheat, but it could be done. 

Ha-ha-ha ..... I can just picture hunters walking up to the hunting counter of Walmarts or Dicks and wrestling a bloody old doe carcass up onto the counter so they can get their buck license.

[JimMac]

isn't the leader of the dec friends with the top nysp who is in someones pocket and they all lean

slightly to wayyyyyy left ...  kill all the deer .. there bad .. oh look we dont need hunters ... grab them guns boys they don't need them now

[WNYBuckHunter]

I do get a chuckle out of some of these posts. a few posters are the same people that refused to bow hunt the first 2 weeks in doe only areas. then there is the land usage problems.... when the state land near over populated areas such as Cayuga heights get pressured up the deer do what deer do... run for the safe zones.. now the dec is left holding the bag on how to correct the over population at hand. the hunters won't do it.. the municipalities won't allow it.. government does what government does.. finds a solution that no one likes and makes it law. after this season everyone is under the impression that the deer Hurd is down. but what I saw is when it got cold, the wind blew and it the snow flew... 37 deer in 1 day on state land. 3 deer in the 3 weeks prior.. none after. I'm not a fan of how the dec manages the deer Hurd, but it does make me chuckle when as sportsman were asked to cull some doe but many won't because they don't have a big enough rack.

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LOL, Im one of the guys that refused to hunt the doe only seasons. I have no issue putting does on the ground. I put 4 in my freezer during gun season and missed a shot at another during bow. Doc hit the nail on the head as to why I refused to participate.

[chas0218]

Disagree that earn a buck is any harder to enforce than any of their other regulations. Heck, they just put off entire WMU from buck hunting for the first 15 days and I'm fairly certain there were those not playing along. Things seem to change every year. How hard is it to not print a buck tag until a doe tag is filled? If you have to, charge an extra $5 to predesignated stores and DEC offices who you show the doe to. Cheaters will always cheat, but it could be done. 

 

I understand your argument but still charging even more for a hunting license will turn off even more people. They are already outrageous. If you were to adapt the earn a buck like other states there would be checkpoints setup in every county. In NY there 62 counties. We have maybe 20 CO agents for the entire state and they are still reducing that number. Also there are many places that have low numbers of deer (not according to DEC there is only overpopulation) and this would cause even less. 

 

AR wouldn't cost anyone anymore money nor would it force a person to take 2 deer when they only need 1. I could see a lot of deer going to waste because of those that don't want/need that much meat. Yes they could donate the deer but there aren't many shops that participate in the donation program.

 

 

LOL, Im one of the guys that refused to hunt the doe only seasons. I have no issue putting does on the ground. I put 4 in my freezer during gun season and missed a shot at another during bow. Doc hit the nail on the head as to why I refused to participate.

You and me both. I argee Doc is spot on!

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by chas0218

[JFB]

Ha-ha-ha ..... I can just picture hunters walking up to the hunting counter of Walmarts or Dicks and wrestling a bloody old doe carcass up onto the counter so they can get their buck license.

 

Obviously large box stores would not be a check station. In Ohio, they used to register all sorts of mom and pop stores, gas stations, etc. I bought a license at a local bar once. They have since got away from checking in deer but most in Ohio wish they'd go back from what I understand. 

[Doc]

I think that it would be useful to carve a little chunk of the budget out and put up some public service announcements around hunting seasons that is aimed at changing attitudes about doe harvests and the necessity of population control. I think hunters minds and attitudes can be changed with even the most minimal of effort. I think it is also a good way to get the benefits and necessity of hunting put out there (as a side effect). I have always contended that the DEC does not have as big a public presence as they should have. It may be time to change that. I realize that DEC budgets have been cut to the bone, but with a bit of reprioritizing of expenditures they may find that a little more public exposure will offer more bang for the buck. Perhaps some media presence would start creating positive hunter attitudes through public education rather than trying to come up with all of these hair-brained fixes to throw band-aids over the effects of neglected bad, outdated, or uninformed attitudes.

[tuckersdaddy]

There seems to be some misunderstanding that deer numbers are impossible to control. It really doesn't take EAB or any of the fancy abbreviation brain-farts. All it really takes is to convert some portion of regular gun season to doe only, and you can eliminate all the deer you want to. And I am quite sure that the DEC is preparing a plan to justify whatever the financial interests of the state are lobbying for.

well according to most bow hunters... gun hunters already shoot anything that's brown and moves.. so making a doe only during gun will have no effect... they are already being shot... now on a less sarcastic note... a bigger problem is no hunt zones in high density deer areas. if you could get enough residents in and area such as Cayuga heights. to get you offsets, the fact the town does not allow it and some of the peta folks not allowing recovery you end up with what they got.... a mess. some areas of the state are following the same path with housing developments, corporate parks, and here's an interesting one that's occurring in our area, the Buddhist are buy large tracks of land.. for those who don't know they are a reincarnation, vegetarian type of religion. so unless the state steps in and holds deer rights over property owners rights, the problem will only get worse...

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[growalot]

 

so unless the state steps in and holds deer rights over property owners rights, the problem will only get worse...

 

Exactly  what do you propose that  statement to mean?

[16. ga hunter]

Wow read the plan they are planning to target high density urban suburban areas kinda like when you have to wait for ten minutes for the heard to cross in Kodak park. People need to stop crying all the god damned time and go back to a simpler existence when whitetail hunting was a fun enjoyable past time instead of grown men trying to compensate for under endowment by killing only deer with "nice" racks.

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[tuckersdaddy]

Exactly what do you propose that statement to mean?

grow... yes you are right.. your property is yours.. but let's talk recovery rights in a congested areas. if commercial herd reduction takes place, the state will over rule rights and allow removal for just pick a reason. Now if the same rules applied to recreational hunting it would allow more congested areas to be hunted.. example if you had 4 to 6 urban lots you have permission to hunt you have enough room to get offsets, but unless the surrounding properties at least 3 to 4 blocks out do not give you recovery right... no sense in hunting there. now you have a whole neighborhood that looks like Cayuga hieghts, or a Rochester suburb. Now grow.. be honest here, you go above and beyond when posting your property with your full name, a complete address and phone number.. you are one of the few. most property is posted 'smith.. syracuse'. so yes recovery rights do need to be addressed as part of the problem.

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[The_Field_Ager]

go back to a simpler existence when whitetail hunting was a fun enjoyable past time instead of grown men trying to compensate for under endowment by killing only deer with "nice" racks.

 

 

Pattering mature and wise deer for harvesting is far more enjoyable than shooting the many feckless crotch horns that piled up under my stand this year. You like fishing in a barrel too?

[16. ga hunter]

Not what I was getting at papist I pattern wise mature deer too. Hunt from the ground using natural cover to disguise my presence. However unlike most I hear these days my hunting is not a individual activity. An experience that at the end of the day is shared with family and friends. Meeting up during hunt for lunch ect staying out all day and knowing the woods we hunt. Not marching to a stand for a few hours then marching back on the afternoon. I enjoy shooting a nice buck as much as the next guy but don't get in a tizzy at the slightest change. And btw I do not like fishing in a barrel I prefer wilderness streams and ponds that most won't hike into for wild brookies

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

Not what I was getting at papist I pattern wise mature deer too. Hunt from the ground using natural cover to disguise my presence. However unlike most I hear these days my hunting is not a individual activity. An experience that at the end of the day is shared with family and friends. Meeting up during hunt for lunch ect staying out all day and knowing the woods we hunt. Not marching to a stand for a few hours then marching back on the afternoon. I enjoy shooting a nice buck as much as the next guy but don't get in a tizzy at the slightest change. And btw I do not like fishing in a barrel I prefer wilderness streams and ponds that most won't hike into for wild brookies

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Every person i know that hunts does and feels just what you said...But still wont shoot baby bucks or any buck not mature.  There is not a stronger feeling of accomplishment than finding,pattering and harvesting a single mature buck out of the woodlot you hunt. Thats hunting. Shooting any buck is not success for many hunters getting up in age and has a wall full of great bucks and has killed 100's of them.

Yeah finding and taking a mature buck sure makes my Stecter pick up!

[16. ga hunter]

Every person i know that hunts does and feels just what you said...But still wont shoot baby bucks or any buck not mature. There is not a stronger feeling of accomplishment than finding,pattering and harvesting a single mature buck out of the woodlot you hunt. Thats hunting. Shooting any buck is not success for many hunters getting up in age and has a wall full of great bucks and has killed 100's of them.

Yeah finding and taking a mature buck sure makes my Stecter pick up!

Taking any buck dose not do it for me either I am after a nice buck. There was a time in my hunting when I would take any buck sure but I am past that point. In fact I would rather run my cocker on grouse through deer season but don't want to deal with the people who would bitch. Or mistake an American Cocker Spaniel for a whitetail so I enjoy my time afield hunting deer. What gets me I guess is how quick others complain about what is being done in the southern zone. When those who have it the worst those taking nice bucks in the Adirondacks do so quietly. What I really find concerning is finding spikes in the woods that have been strapped out. And doe with minimal meat taken left to rot in parking areas. Or bucks left whole in the woods minus their heads. Seems more of an issue to me than what the dec wants to do in urban areas where access is denied. The rate at which I find cases of wonton waste in many tracts of state land in the southern zone tells me that most of those shooting wildlife in NYS have lost touch with what the sport is about and are after only one thing horns.

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Edited December 26, 2015 by 16. ga hunter

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Taking any buck dose not do it for me either I am after a nice buck. There was a time in my hunting when I would take any buck sure but I am past that point. In fact I would rather run my cocker on grouse through deer season but don't want to deal with the people who would bitch. Or mistake an American Cocker Spaniel for a whitetail so I enjoy my time afield hunting deer. What gets me I guess is how quick others complain about what is being done in the southern zone. When those who have it the worst those taking nice bucks in the Adirondacks do so quietly. What I really find concerning is finding spikes in the woods that have been strapped out. And doe with minimal meat taken left to rot in parking areas. Or bucks left whole in the woods minus their heads. Seems more of an issue to me than what the dec wants to do in urban areas where access is denied. The rate at which I find cases of wonton waste in many tracts of state land in the southern zone tells me that most of those shooting wildlife in NYS have lost touch with what the sport is about and are after only one thing horns.

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Although i agree with your post on what you find i believe you are talking about 2 different kind of people/hunters.  The low life that will do as you say are the same ones that will kill any buck they see.  Yes the hunting world has changed and most hunters are looking for real deer that are some what of a challenge to kill but i find it hard to believe that those are the hunter doing what you say you are finding. I myself saw dead bucks on Letchworth this year that were left because they did not make the cut for antler restricts.  The guys that shot them are not the same guys that are looking to only kill 120 inch bucks and up.

[16. ga hunter]

In a way I believe you are right. However I know for a fact that some of the deer are left in that state due to the "trophy" culture that has evolved. Leaving the low life's feeling inadequate or shamed by their killing of a young buck so they leave it after taking just enough of it. So as to be able to have a deer to brag about. Or tagging a buck if need be during late muzzle because they are close enough to the buck zone to not get caught. While driving around with a qdma sticker on the back of their truck. It's not all but i find many younger mid twenties to early thirties "buck" hunters to be involved in these kinds of activities. They quickly learn not to talk about them around me. Or supposed mentors telling young hunters it's ok to take the nice 8 because he has a tag for it even though said young hunter (i.e. Teens)took a spike on opening day and made his hunting career to that point. Now the young hunter is confused and feels guilty for no reason about taking that spike. I find it hard to convey what I mean exactly on these forums sometimes. However I believe it would be in our best interest as hunters and sportsman to be worried more about these types of things and the image general public will perceive over the dec thinning herds in certain areas. Could they get them drastically low yes non existent doubtful. In the long run only the true sportsman would remain anyways.

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Edited December 26, 2015 by 16. ga hunter

[gjs4]

The Gary Alt directive in pa was based off saving early successional trees but masked as being about antler restrictions after knocking the crap out of the herd. Basically if hey can limit deer numbers they can claim a win for the regrowth and then dangle the carrot of although there are less deer there are bigger or older ones. Every deer report has the average buck age increasing- ever note that? The stats are based on limited pools for a reason whether it's a survey or the deer take. The sportsmans liaison groups and deer herd meetings are never open let alone published or produce documented minutes. The E stands for economic not environmental

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