Lead Ammo Brief - go debate

[Doc]

I have been eating small game killed with lead shot for 72 years now and probably a considerable amount more than most people. So exactly when are all these tragic health disasters supposed to strike?

[Marion]

I have been eating small game killed with lead shot for 72 years now and probably a considerable amount more than most people. So exactly when are all these tragic health disasters supposed to strike?

That explains a lot kidding of course. I'm on your side Doc. The argument I'm sure will go something similar to "you could have eaten small game for 72 additional years had you not used lead shot"

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[shawnhu]

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/story/news/local/new-jersey/2016/02/01/nj-lead-poisoning-campaign/79665914/

Must be all that game meat these kids are eating these days....

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

That was not my intent with this post. Rather, the intent was to get people to reflect on what they say or read, and encourage  evidenced-based thinking instead of ideology-based thinking. However, it is not working...

Oh it is working....People showing you how far from real and out there your thoughts really are.

[Curmudgeon]

That was not my intent with this post. Rather, the intent was to get people to reflect on what they say or read, and encourage  evidenced-based thinking instead of ideology-based thinking. However, it is not working...

 

This debate is in some ways is Rorschach test. For some it is about poisoning eagles and other wildlife. Those concerned about human health see something else. The single-issue 2nd Amendment guys see it as a threat. I had one guy tell me it was all right to use copper bullets for better performance but it was not acceptable to discuss the food chain and wildlife issues.

 

I have been eating small game killed with lead shot for 72 years now and probably a considerable amount more than most people. So exactly when are all these tragic health disasters supposed to strike?

 

Doc - Like so many others who argue against using less toxic alternatives, your rhetoric is overblown. 4S says mutations. You are calling the incremental affects on small children "tragic health disasters". I too have been eating small game and venison most of my life. I would never consider that the lead may not have impacted me. Like you, I grew up around cars spewing lead, lead paint and lead solder in the plumbing. Neither of us knows what would have been if we had not had that lead in our system.

 

There is no doubt that lead is bad, and especially so for children. So WHY, do you and others try to diminish these concerns by intentionally exaggerating them? Knowing what you know, if you had a toddler now, would you feed it small game with lead pellets in it?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

This debate is in some ways is Rorschach test. For some it is about poisoning eagles and other wildlife. Those concerned about human health see something else. The single-issue 2nd Amendment guys see it as a threat. I had one guy tell me it was all right to use copper bullets for better performance but it was not acceptable to discuss the food chain and wildlife issues.

 

 

Doc - Like so many others who argue against using less toxic alternatives, your rhetoric is overblown. 4S says mutations. You are calling the incremental affects on small children "tragic health disasters". I too have been eating small game and venison most of my life. I would never consider that the lead may not have impacted me. Like you, I grew up around cars spewing lead, lead paint and lead solder in the plumbing. Neither of us knows what would have been if we had not had that lead in our system.

 

There is no doubt that lead is bad, and especially so for children. So WHY, do you and others try to diminish these concerns by intentionally exaggerating them? Knowing what you know, if you had a toddler now, would you feed it small game with lead pellets in it?

Didnt bother the children that grew up eating small game back then and it wont bother them now. Now if you think that is worse than drinking some of the water people drink across this country?  Well......

You wont have to worry to much about the kids these days eating small game,doves,pheasant rabbit or many others killed with lead shot because there is not any to be had!

[shawnhu]

This debate is in some ways is Rorschach test. For some it is about poisoning eagles and other wildlife. Those concerned about human health see something else. The single-issue 2nd Amendment guys see it as a threat. I had one guy tell me it was all right to use copper bullets for better performance but it was not acceptable to discuss the food chain and wildlife issues.

Doc - Like so many others who argue against using less toxic alternatives, your rhetoric is overblown. 4S says mutations. You are calling the incremental affects on small children "tragic health disasters". I too have been eating small game and venison most of my life. I would never consider that the lead may not have impacted me. Like you, I grew up around cars spewing lead, lead paint and lead solder in the plumbing. Neither of us knows what would have been if we had not had that lead in our system.

There is no doubt that lead is bad, and especially so for children. So WHY, do you and others try to diminish these concerns by intentionally exaggerating them? Knowing what you know, if you had a toddler now, would you feed it small game with lead pellets in it?

Save the birds, sacrifice the sport.

You wonder why so many are coming out and diminishing your point, and it's because your point is against the very material most hunters use to hunt. That in itself is an assault on conservation.

No one is arguing that ingesting lead on purpose, or by accident is a good idea. What you're probably missing is that responsible hunters remove as much of this stuff from our diet as we can, and that's an ACCEPTABLE risk these hunters are willing to take, so why are you still harping on the subject?

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[Grouse]

Doc may be an example of how humans build up a resistance, or even an immunity, to lead if it is consumed in minute quantities over time.  Maybe it works like vaccines, where a small amount of a virus will actually keep you from getting the disease.  Many people over 50 were exposed to lots of lead in their youth and really haven't shown any verifiable evidence of harm.  How do we know Doc is less of a person because of it?  How do we know for certain he isn't more of a person because of it?

 

Nobody has ever done any research on that so who knows for certain?  Medical science is constantly revising things they were claiming to be absolutely certain of in the past.

 

With all of the things that threaten humans today, from war and terrorism to invasive diseases, a concern about lead ammo is just far down my list of worries.

 

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

.............so why are you still harping on the subject?

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I am only responding to posts, like yours. This has been going on for what, 10 days now since the first thread started?

[shawnhu]

You and mike basically started this thread, and all by your lonesome until some got lured into the "debate". I don't think you were simply "responding", more like instigating.

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[dbHunterNY]

This entire debate is non lead ammo for hunting. At the range I use lead ammo, My home range is a pellet trap inside a larger pellet trap. However I use non lead pellet ammo for hunting. I have a deer rifle and a slug gun both are fine tuned for copper and used exclusively for hunting, even so they make it to the range twice before each season the check zero. Small game is both more difficult since many pellets make it to the dinner plate and if cooked in an acidic environment spitting the pellet out may be too late.

 

Do you eat the varmints? If you dispose of the carcass properly you've no need to switch from lead. We are talking about lead in the game you EAT. or if not disposing of it so raptors and other animals get at the lead.

 

I don't eat the varmints.  however, there in is the problem of preventing other wildlife from getting to it.  a deep dry hole filled in seems to be the only way and that's just not feasible every time I go shoot something.  I've had shallow graves dug up at times.  for wood chucks if I have reason to believe there's no other chucks in the hole i'll toss it back in and fill in the hole.  otherwise, I try to at least throw it in a hedgerow or bushes at the field edge.  something like a coyote will probably find it and gorge on the spot.  at least birds of prey aren't finding it and spreading it over longer distances to bring some back to their nests.  for turkey I already use non-lead shot.  I'm getting into reloading and will most likely load non-lead ammo for big game hunting to reduce cost and help ensure performance.  some uses there's just no easy way around it though, that includes exposure and not just worrying about meat contamination that you or wildlife will be susceptible to.

[Curmudgeon]

You and mike basically started this thread, and all by your lonesome until some got lured into the "debate". I don't think you were simply "responding", more like instigating.

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I started this thread - http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/32001-good-column-on-non-lead-ammo/

 

Mike started this one all by his lonesome, because he wanted the discussion I "instigated" to be more of a debate, to actually involve evidence.

 

There is an easy way to get this all to stop.

 

[mike rossi]

 

There is an easy way to get this all to stop.

 

 

Fine with me. Even better if the  whole thread is deleted, not just locked. 

[Curmudgeon]

My thinking was that they just stop arguing with us. "You had the power all the time my dear".

[EspressoBuzz]

Hey Mike! I appreciated the social lesson/experiment in public oratory and rhetorical philosophical debate! Thanks! 

[dbHunterNY]

i think there's no need to fear lead as much as some posts came across to suggest.  i also don't think "evidence" that it can cause health issues should be ignored  either.  i think most sportsmen share this same sentiment though.  lead isn't going away anytime soon.  I think it'll take manufacturers to volunteer and market more options with reason for their business not to take a hit.  there has to be slow market growth.  specific groups within the sportsmen community being required to use it or everyone in general being forced to use it isn't working or going to work.  people who NEED it now pay too much for it.  a manufacturer ban on lead ammo production would destroy the industry and cause good ammo to be impossible to get for various reasons.

 

It's just something that's going to take a very long time to change.  promote it's use but don't claim the sky will fall if we don't.  that's where I stand not by choice but by necessity.

[Doc]

 

There is no doubt that lead is bad, and especially so for children. So WHY, do you and others try to diminish these concerns by intentionally exaggerating them? Knowing what you know, if you had a toddler now, would you feed it small game with lead pellets in it?

There is no exaggeration in my age, or the fact that there is no perceptible or doctor-diagnosed evidence of lead poisoning. Yes had I spent my childhood gnawing on lead painted window sills or chewing on lead pipes or drinking water that was tainted with lead or any other toxin, the story might have been different, but I am simply asking a question out of idle curiosity.....what makes this old critter such an amazing survivor that I have been able to fight off the so-called guaranteed death sentence of eating animals shot with lead shot and bullets and slugs?

 

At my age, I have a doctor that regularly monitors all aspects of my health, and I have yet to hear, " Gosh Doc, if only you hadn't have eaten so much lead shot game all your life you may have lived a few more years". I am not really trying to refute anything, but I have to say that simple curiosity forces one to ask these kinds of questions.

[mike rossi]

Here is the deal:

 

On every hunting forum there is a Doc Persona, a Four Seasons Whitetail Persona, and a Shawnhu Persona.

 

They claim  to be hunters, yet 5 things  they support will end hunting ( while implying the vice versa):

 

1) Pellet guns instead of real firearms

 

2) Expensive and detrimental High Fence Trophy Hunting 

 

3) Creating a rift between archers and all other forms of hunting

 

4) Use of lead ammo

 

5) Predator control, particularity bounties and/or year-round hunting 

 

They claim  to be hunters, yet 3 things  they oppose will end hunting via attrition ( while implying the vice versa) :

 

1) Oppose dove hunting

 

2) Oppose the state pheasant stocking program

 

3) Oppose habitat funding

 

[mike rossi]

Heres a few other gripes:

 

Not only does FSW spread misinformation and harrass people, he has been kicked off a number of sites, yet this site lets him rant.

 

On numerous occasions he condoned illegal activity - not only poaching but use of illegal drugs. Yet, the site administers let him go on and on. Suppose his idea of hunting is going through the gate in his back yard and shooting a deer he bred by AI behind a fence. Yeah, think I will go harvest old paddle antlers today..... 

 

Mike Kerry is is his real name by the way. Must do a lot of hunting between running a restaurant and a deer ranch.

 

Here is his characteristic rant on another site under the name Heart Punch - and if you notice BANNED from that site:

 

https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59359

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by mike rossi

[Curmudgeon]

There is no exaggeration.............what makes this old critter such an amazing survivor that I have been able to fight off the so-called guaranteed death sentence of eating animals shot with lead shot and bullets and slugs?

 

 

 

What? The "so-called guaranteed death sentence" is not another exaggeration? Where and who has suggested any such thing? Your default modus operandi in arguments is exaggeration.

 

The question remains: If you had a toddler today, would you feed it meat with lead in it?

 

[airedale]

Well brand me  "UNFIT", my Grandfather ate meat shot with lead, my Dad ate meat shot with lead, I ate and still do eat meat shot with lead and both of my boys grew up eating meat shot with lead and still do. I would not change one thing and do over everything exactly the same!!!!

 

We have always taken care of our game meat properly, all questionable meat is removed and discarded, none of us were ever sick from lead poisoning nor do I know one single hunter who ate meat shot with lead ever to come down with some sort of lead malady!

 

 

Al

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Heres a few other gripes:

 

Not only does FSW spread misinformation and harrass people, he has been kicked off a number of sites, yet this site lets him rant.

 

On numerous occasions he condoned illegal activity - not only poaching but use of illegal drugs. Yet, the site administers let him go on and on. Suppose his idea of hunting is going through the gate in his back yard and shooting a deer he bred by AI behind a fence. Yeah, think I will go harvest old paddle antlers today..... 

 

Mike Kerry is is his real name by the way. Must do a lot of hunting between running a restaurant and a deer ranch.

 

Here is his characteristic rant on another site under the name Heart Punch - and if you notice BANNED from that site:

 

https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59359

You got that right....There is a Terry Singeltary on every site and you are the one on this one. I have no problem signing my name at the bottom of the page when it come to calling out fools like you.

Singleltary spread nothing but his own claims on CWD and his sky is falling bullsh!t and i called him out with facts...And now after all these years look who was right...Me!

Same goes for you..I called you out on your stupid ideas of a failed Dove season and you so called dug up facts when the truth is you ask 9 out of 10 hunters and they tell you they wont support it on so many levels. You talk of taking away hunters choices to hunt where ever they like even behind 10,000 acre high fence ranches yet your dumb enough to say in the next breath that your ok with some kid hand feeding a bird all its life to be let out into a field so you can blow its head of after you had to have a dog hunt it down for you because you are not hunter enough to take that bird one on one.

 

The QDMA is a good site for a guy like you to bring up...A bunch of good old boys from the south getting rich off a bunch of fools that believe their crap...They use the word Quality when they are all trying to make Trophy   QDM is nothing but TDM but they cant do it on their side of the fence as we can on ours and that why deer farming and high fence hunting are two of the fastest growing facets in those industries.  

 

Bottom line is if you dont want to be called out on your failed thoughts then keep them over on your failed website trying to promote a failed dove season!   Joke!

[Doewhacker]

FSW has to be one the stupidest people on here and comes out with the stupidest crap for sure.

 

People like him and others that get the silent approval from this site are the sites downfall. Big reason why less and less folks post here.

[Doewhacker]

What? The "so-called guaranteed death sentence" is not another exaggeration? Where and who has suggested any such thing? Your default modus operandi in arguments is exaggeration.

 

The question remains: If you had a toddler today, would you feed it meat with lead in it?

 

 

Exaggeration and circular or repetitive argument are big here.

 

Exaggeration and circular or repetitive argument are big here.

 

Exaggeration and circular or repetitive argument are big here.

 

Exaggeration and circular or repetitive argument are big here.

 

 

 

 

 

See what I did there?  Now its a fact.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

FSW has to be one the stupidest people on here and comes out with the stupidest crap for sure.

 

People like him and others that get the silent approval from this site are the sites downfall. Big reason why less and less folks post here.

Yeah Ok....I believe that has been proven a few times over....You ladies just cant handle when the rest of us call out you failed thoughts on a few subjects.

 

Nothing but facts and truths come out of this camp!

 

You have proven yourself one of the biggest ones to show that you cant handle seeing someone else's success.  You and the bird man fit in together nicely..

 

When is the last time you reached in and supported this site with anything else but your bull????

Edited March 18, 2016 by Four Season Whitetails