Reframing Trophy Hunting

[Five Seasons]

Id bet my 401k the pompous elitist hunter has done more for hunting through purchasing tags, equipment, traveling to other states, living and breathing hunting and spreading it to their sons and daughters then Billy Bob and his 870 he takes out 1 weekend a year.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Billy Bob, we need him. But the majority of them don't do much for the sport.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Belo

[Curmudgeon]

Belo - I can't figure out if you just insulted me or not.

[Rattler]

I was referring to the, "This tends to be a self selecting group" part.  That's not an inclusive attitude.  That's a prejudicial position.  It's fine to be an expert,  but excluding those who are deemed unworthy because they disagree, or challenge your opinion, is not the proper methodology to get people to buy into your ideology.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I was referring to the, "This tends to be a self selecting group" part.  That's not an inclusive attitude.  That's a prejudicial position.  It's fine to be an expert,  but excluding those who are deemed unworthy because they disagree, or challenge your opinion, is not the proper methodology to get people to buy into your ideology.

 

Apparently, you did not understand what it meant. It refers to the people who choose to be part of this forum. You are part of the "self selecting group". Most of the hunters I associate with are not. This creates a bias which makes people like me less represented here than they are in the real world.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[Five Seasons]

Belo - I can't figure out if you just insulted me or not.

If I did it wasn't my intent.

[Rattler]

Apparently, you did not understand what it meant. It refers to the people who choose to be part of this forum. You are part of the "self selecting group". Most of the hunters I associate with are not. This creates a bias which makes people like me less represented here than they are in the real world.

 

Mea Culpa.  You are right, I misunderstood what you meant.  My apologies.

[tughillmcd]

Apparently, you did not understand what it meant. It refers to the people who choose to be part of this forum. You are part of the "self selecting group". Most of the hunters I associate with are not. This creates a bias which makes people like me less represented here than they are in the real world.

 

I am confused. Because we are members of this forum, we are automatically part of a "self selecting group",,

If I read you correctly, even though you are a member of this forum, you are not part of this same "self selecting group" because most of the people you hunt with are not members.

How about the rest of us whose hunting companions are not part of this group either. Why are we automatically pegged as being part of this "self selecting group"?

I guess I don't have a clue what your definition is of this so called "self selecting group" and what you are trying to get across with this comment.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I am confused. Because we are members of this forum, we are automatically part of a "self selecting group",,

If I read you correctly, even though you are a member of this forum, you are not part of this same "self selecting group" because most of the people you hunt with are not members.

How about the rest of us whose hunting companions are not part of this group either. Why are we automatically pegged as being part of this "self selecting group"?

I guess I don't have a clue what your definition is of this so called "self selecting group" and what you are trying to get across with this comment.

Kinda makes ya wonder if they even hunt huh. Words speak volumes at times!

[Curmudgeon]

I am confused. Because we are members of this forum, we are automatically part of a "self selecting group",,

If I read you correctly, even though you are a member of this forum, you are not part of this same "self selecting group" because most of the people you hunt with are not members.

How about the rest of us whose hunting companions are not part of this group either. Why are we automatically pegged as being part of this "self selecting group"?

I guess I don't have a clue what your definition is of this so called "self selecting group" and what you are trying to get across with this comment.

 

A simpler way of saying the same thing: This forum does not accurately reflect the opinions or practices of NYS hunters. It has biases. If someone wanted good data on what hunters in NYS think, they might come here looking for questions to ask. They would not come here to get data.

 

Since we are already off the rails, why not keep going. If you have been around a while, if you care and pay attention, one of the more obvious problems is how women are treated here. You have to be a tough woman to persist even if the men who are a problem are a minority.

 

Strictly rhetorical questions: Why are YOU here? Because you want to meet people like you? Because you are bored at your computer? Because you have an agenda? Because you like to argue? Because you are trying to learn something? Because it helps your business? Because you enjoy Muslim hate spam?

[The_Real_TCIII]

A simpler way of saying the same thing: This forum does not accurately reflect the opinions or practices of NYS hunters. It has biases. If someone wanted good data on what hunters in NYS think, they might come here looking for questions to ask. They would not come here to get data.

Strictly rhetorical questions: Why are YOU here? Because you want to meet people like you? Because you are bored at your computer? Because you have an agenda? Because you like to argue? Because you are trying to learn something? Because it helps your business? Because you enjoy Muslim hate spam?

Where's the "All of the above" option??

[Doc]

Would anyone care to actually define what is meant by "self selecting group". I am completely confused about what could possibly be meant by that term. It doesn't even make any sense to me.

[Curmudgeon]

I did it in the first sentence of post #34. Do you want me to quote myself? Forget that, here it is again: "A simpler way of saying the same thing: This forum does not accurately reflect the opinions or practices of NYS hunters. It has biases. If someone wanted good data on what hunters in NYS think, they might come here looking for questions to ask. They would not come here to get data."

 

In other words, when people choose to be part of a smaller group, they are not representative of the larger group.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[Five Seasons]

 

 

 one of the more obvious problems is how women are treated here. You have to be a tough woman to persist even if the men who are a problem are a minority.

 

 

in fairness. woman in hunting face a tough time. woman on the internet definitely face a tough time. woman in society are fighting inequality. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I certainly wouldn't say this site "bashes" woman more than anywhere else I've seen. We bash everyone, lol.

[nyantler]

I did it in the first sentence of post #34. Do you want me to quote myself? Forget that, here it is again: "A simpler way of saying the same thing: This forum does not accurately reflect the opinions or practices of NYS hunters. It has biases. If someone wanted good data on what hunters in NYS think, they might come here looking for questions to ask. They would not come here to get data."

 

In other words, when people choose to be part of a smaller group, they are not representative of the larger group.

I tend to agree with this... I'm not sure if pertains to all forums, but I think this forum has a better educated class of hunters than most of the 1000's of hunters I've encountered over the years. Although I don't think it represents the average NYS hunter... it does make for a bit more intelligent and interesting conversation than other forums I've been on. Most opinions seem well thought out even if I don't agree with some of them. I wouldn't come here for data if I was looking for a good sample of the average NYS deer hunter.

[Doc]

I did it in the first sentence of post #34. Do you want me to quote myself? Forget that, here it is again: "A simpler way of saying the same thing: This forum does not accurately reflect the opinions or practices of NYS hunters. It has biases. If someone wanted good data on what hunters in NYS think, they might come here looking for questions to ask. They would not come here to get data."

 

In other words, when people choose to be part of a smaller group, they are not representative of the larger group.

I agree with this statement, but how the heck that relates to a term like "self selecting group" still eludes me, but if that statement is somehow what you really meant to say when you started using the "self-selecting group" jargon, that's fine with me. I just needed some clarification as to what the hell you were talking about.

[Padre86]

You want to "work together" where there is "common ground". Arguing against wilderness areas - which I hunted avidly when I was able - and pushing for motorized access, undermines that desire. I can no longer hunt those big woods but I will continue to advocate for wilderness. I have personal limits but would fight the State compromising wild areas by allowing motorized access, even if it got me deeper into the woods. There are plenty of "Wild Forests". Many "Wilderness" areas are lacking in game anyway.

 

You may not find many who agree with me on this forum but they are out there. I hunt with them. This tends to be a self selecting group. Maybe sportsmen aren't joining your organizations because there are too many differences, too many compromises. I will join the NRA when they stop lying about the impact of lead ammo on scavenging raptors.

 

Why would trapping be banned in some municipalities? I assume this is for pet safety. I am sure I am not the only person who knows someone whose pet was caught or killed by a trap in a suburban or semi-rural area.

 

 

I think a lot of long-time Adirondack residents, not just those who hunt, would disagree with you.  A few, but powerful and wealthy, advocacy groups (ADK Mountain club) have been very stubborn about insisting that the APA classify many areas as Wilderness that had traditionally been open to the locals (and the public in general) for a multitude of uses (hunting, fishing, drive-in access, sea-plane access).  No one is arguing that the ADK park should be turned into one big ATV/4x4 park, but at the same time there are whole swaths of land that people used to use for recreation (hunting, fishing, camping) that no one hardly uses anymore due to how remote it is...and I'm talking from experience here as I have actually taken the time to find and hike down these old logging/hunting roads in the Pepperbox Wilderness area and Essex Chain of Lakes, among other areas...I've hardly seen a soul on these hikes and camping trips because of how long it takes to get there.  I'm not saying that I expect the wilderness to be teeming with people and activity, but by comparison, I've seen extensive swaths of Wild Forest areas (which are more permissible with motorized access) and I can tell you that the noise and traffic is minimal at best....you get a few hundred yards away from the main roads or the trailheads and you're quickly feeling alone in the woods.

 

Honestly, I think the best thing the APA could do is issue a sort of "back country" license to fishermen, hunters, sportsmen, or anyone seeking to get deeper into some of these wilderness areas...sort of a pass that would allow them to drive their vehicles a down these old logging and hunting roads for purposes of access.  Fees could go towards maintaining the roads and ecosystem in general.  The DEC could put a key fob device at the gates so that people who legally bought the pass are the only ones who get access and if they get caught breaking rules or abusing their access, revoke the pass.  We have the technology to do that sort of thing and given that you have to buy in, it would still keep the vehicle traffic restricted to certain roads (that in all honesty really don't see much if any foot traffic nowadays) and to a minimum.  

 

Hunting in the ADK's is hard enough as it is due to the low density of game, so hunters need all the access they can get to get into good spots.  And fisherman would appreciate the easier access to the more remote lakes and ponds.  A little more motorized access won't hurt anyone or anything despite what the environmental groups whine about.

 

Edit: BTW, I'm sure at some point in the future, bullets will use an entirely different material other than lead, but a lot of people tend to forget that lead is a naturally occurring element and that when lead bullets were banned in California, the # of raptor deaths didn't really change much either because there we were being poisoned by other sources of lead (either man-made or natural).  The amount of lead put into the ground by hunters is minimal compared to the amount of runoff and pollution created by a whole slue of other activities (farming, construction, roadway traffic, human traffic, power plants, ect.).

 

People pick and choose what outrages them in this day and age.  There is no shortage of groups of will cry "bloody murder" over small pieces of lead being shot into the ground, but they have absolutely no problem hooking up their iphones, computers, and A/C to a powergrid that relies predominantly on fossil fuel powerplants.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Padre86

[Curmudgeon]

I'm glad to see I have another fan. You joined the club.

[Padre86]

I'm glad to see I have another fan. You joined the club.

 

I don't know what club that is, but I do care about the environment.  If we totally trash our forests and wilderness areas, then I as a hunter, camper, hiker will have nothing to enjoy and neither will the future generations.

 

The only difference between you and I is that we each have different views on how to go about protecting the environment.  

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, it's the club that denies global warming, and that raptors are poisoned by bullet fragments. It's made up of people who believe the 2nd amendment was handed down by God himself. It's the club that thinks persecuting coyotes actually does something besides increasing coyote reproduction. It's populated with people who think the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Some others who think we need to log the Forest Preserve. Some members are gung-ho frackers.

 

If you think we need more deer, everywhere, regardless of the impacts to forest and other wildlife, you can certainly join.

[virgil]

Now that's funny.

[Padre86]

Oh, it's the club that denies global warming, and that raptors are poisoned by bullet fragments. It's made up of people who believe the 2nd amendment was handed down by God himself. It's the club that thinks persecuting coyotes actually does something besides increasing coyote reproduction. It's populated with people who think the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Some others who think we need to log the Forest Preserve. Some members are gung-ho frackers.

 

If you think we need more deer, everywhere, regardless of the impacts to forest and other wildlife, you can certainly join.

 

 

I thought we were talking about the Adirondack Park's land classifications and general conservation practices?  I have no idea how you went about making those assumptions about my overall political, religious and philosophical beliefs, but I'll pretend that post didn't happen.

[Curmudgeon]

Now that's funny.

 

Virgil - I'm surprised. I threw out a lot of bait and got little response. The only ones I didn't poke were the misogynists but they have been keeping a low profile lately.

[virgil]

I know.  I was pretty sure you'd get a response to that one. 

 

You also forgot to mention the conspiracy theorists- that was an oversight.

[Rattler]

Oh, it's the club that denies global warming, and that raptors are poisoned by bullet fragments. It's made up of people who believe the 2nd amendment was handed down by God himself. It's the club that thinks persecuting coyotes actually does something besides increasing coyote reproduction. It's populated with people who think the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Some others who think we need to log the Forest Preserve. Some members are gung-ho frackers.

 

If you think we need more deer, everywhere, regardless of the impacts to forest and other wildlife, you can certainly join.

 

As opposed to the club that believes in dictating their policies to everyone else, regardless of the consequences.

 

Example #1:  "[E]ven if the existence of global warming is 'settled,' the policies for how to best respond to it are not. But in the political debates about climate change, activists say that their climatological claims are irrefutable and so are their preferred remedies. If climate change is the threat they claim, I'd rather spend billions on geoengineering to fix it than trillions on impoverishing economic policies that at best slightly delay it." —Jonah Goldberg

Edited May 20, 2016 by Rattler

[Rattler]

Example of the dictator club #2:  

 

"Our Founding Fathers built a system of government for the specific purpose of protecting us from the kind of people that are running this country right now. But those people have twisted and ignored the Constitution, more every year, until they're finally at the point they can start pushing to change or replace it.

The Founding Fathers knew that tyranny is an incessantly aggressive beast and that only strict adherence to the Constitution would keep it at bay. And our only hope of stopping the encroachment of totalitarianism is to get people in government who will REALLY abide by the Constitution - not just study it for the purpose of learning how to get around it."

Caroline Crawley