Antler restrictions success? ?

[G-Man]

Although this might be the answer for NY if the goal is bigger bucks... If you think there is an uproar over antler restrictions, you haven't seen anything until you take away hunting days AND not allow gun hunting during the rut here in NY. Many here have said that AR's would cause a huge number of hunters to drop out of the ranks... shorter seasons and no guns during rut would have the same, if not worse, effect. Those that used the drop out of hunting defense for no AR's don't seem to have a problem with hunters dropping out when it comes to their view of how to have more big bucks. How is restricting antler size any different than restricting when and with what weapon you can take a buck... if in fact your only goal is to have bigger bucks?

As the article shows ar's do not produce bigger bucks as ny and pa are just about dead even every year in entries...my point is they are not nessary for what most hunter feel they will do which is create bigger bucks...the article shows they arent. The only way to grow bigger buck thay hunters that support ar seem to want would be to change season structure . That's all I said . I support neither and as I said on other thread I am quite content with deer management in nys..my only cage would be moving the opening back to a monday, to bring back camp comroderie, and economic boost to small towns and rural areas..

[dbHunterNY]

As the article shows ar's do not produce bigger bucks as ny and pa are just about dead even every year in entries...my point is they are not nessary for what most hunter feel they will do which is create bigger bucks...the article shows they arent. The only way to grow bigger buck thay hunters that support ar seem to want would be to change season structure . That's all I said . I support neither and as I said on other thread I am quite content with deer management in nys..my only cage would be moving the opening back to a monday, to bring back camp comroderie, and economic boost to small towns and rural areas..

 

in all fairness they do indirectly produce bigger bucks by letting some survive a year or two, which is many cases more than enough to stoke hunter satisfaction.  it still can lead to an antler size increase of 30+% of their potential.  I think it should be clear that the context of the article is referring to a big buck as a Boone&Crockett or Pope&Young buck, which is the portion of the population that are the very biggest and probably more mature.  most hunters have never even seen that caliber of buck in the wild in their lifetime.  so to say it's those results or nothing is a bit unrealistic.

 

I'm sure you also realize that subjective comroderie or economic boost aside.  some are hard pressed to get the time off or justify it for a Monday opener.  Especially if they're newer to hunting or not that serious.  Saturday opener gets more people out in the woods the first days of the open season.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And, how would it affect new hunter recruitment?

 

Not a bit. Most kids that hunt today are kids born to fathers that work hard for what they own when it comes to hunting and only want to take the best they can. Its bred into todays few new hunters that join the ranks. They want big and they want it now.

 

Just the way the world is turning in real life!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

in all fairness they do indirectly produce bigger bucks by letting some survive a year or two, which is many cases more than enough to stoke hunter satisfaction.  it still can lead to an antler size increase of 30+% of their potential.  I think it should be clear that the context of the article is referring to a big buck as a Boone&Crockett or Pope&Young buck, which is the portion of the population that are the very biggest and probably more mature.  most hunters have never even seen that caliber of buck in the wild in their lifetime.  so to say it's those results or nothing is a bit unrealistic.

 

I'm sure you also realize that subjective comroderie or economic boost aside.  some are hard pressed to get the time off or justify it for a Monday opener.  Especially if they're newer to hunting or not that serious.  Saturday opener gets more people out in the woods the first days of the open season.

They sure do. I know the place i hunt and have land around sure has gained from it. Only like 3-4 years in i believe and i know i have noticed the difference and enjoy the bigger success.

 

As do 100's of other hunters as trying to get on the place is almost impossible any longer without either some luck or some cash!

[Buckmaster7600]

I have hunted Ohio and I canceled my lease this year. If I kill a 100"+ buck in the Adirondacks that is a trophy. When I hunted Ohio it was fun having 120- 140" bucks around me daily. I shot the first 140" buck I seen my first time out there and after that I never got excited because it was the norm. I have no one to impress and I know what a "big" buck is in the areas I hunt. If I catch a 30lb king salmon on Lake Ontario it is a trophy to me even tho on the west coast it would be small.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'd like to ask this question, When the DEC collects the # of points on buck kills, why do they not release the numbers to the public? As a hunter when they say this % of 2 1/2 yr. old buck were taken, I'd like to see how many deer with 8 pt's or more were registered in that #.  Also the the #'s in low points as well. The DEC should realize by now we as a group believe what we see ,in most cases.

As far as a campaign for bigger buck goes they need to then explain some areas of NYS produce 1 1/2 yr. old 8pts,then describe what to look for in body characteristics to get an older deer,if that's what they want.

 

They do, its in the harvest report they release each year.

[growalot]

How'd I miss that..I read it..I do not recall  the numbers of buck in each category listed...IE  x = # spike,x= # of 3 x= #4 ,x= # 5 x= #6, x= #7pt. buck taken, ect ect... is there a page number or specific place I should be looking?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Not a bit. Most kids that hunt today are kids born to fathers that work hard for what they own when it comes to hunting and only want to take the best they can. Its bred into todays few new hunters that join the ranks. They want big and they want it now.

 

Just the way the world is turning in real life!

 

Not true, there are still a ton of new hunters being brought into the sport by people that are passing along virtues of the sport other than big racks.

[WNYBuckHunter]

How'd I miss that..I read it..I do not recall  the numbers of buck in each category listed...IE  x = # spike,x= # of 3 x= #4 ,x= # 5 x= #6, x= #7pt. buck taken, ect ect... is there a page number or specific place I should be looking?

 

Ill look it up, its in a couple of graphs if I remember correctly

[WNYBuckHunter]

How'd I miss that..I read it..I do not recall  the numbers of buck in each category listed...IE  x = # spike,x= # of 3 x= #4 ,x= # 5 x= #6, x= #7pt. buck taken, ect ect... is there a page number or specific place I should be looking?

 

Page 15 & 16. To figure out numbers, youd have to cross reference the percentages in the graphs with the harvest numbers given in other charts and do the math to get them.

[growalot]

I Do appreciate the time you took to look that up.though there is the point.

They have the individual #'s. They used them to make the charts..just print the #s. How difficult is that?.

I'll tell you...easier than doing the math.I'm sure more accurate as well..wink

[WNYBuckHunter]

I agree

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Not true, there are still a ton of new hunters being brought into the sport by people that are passing along virtues of the sport other than big racks.

Not True?  Really?  So you say it does not happen at all?  Wrong answer. It happens a pile and more hunters are after the biggest buck they can get then there is the so called Mgmt hunter or whatever you want to call them. Its pretty simple to see by looking at the land getting ate up in leases by hunters looking to farm the land in food plots and such...So they can kill a big buck.

 

Its the way of the hunting world and will continue on for the foreseeable future. Its everywhere. On every picture and page of most books,Big bucks on most hunting products. Its everywhere.

[G-Man]

in all fairness they do indirectly produce bigger bucks by letting some survive a year or two, which is many cases more than enough to stoke hunter satisfaction. it still can lead to an antler size increase of 30+% of their potential. I think it should be clear that the context of the article is referring to a big buck as a Boone&Crockett or Pope&Young buck, which is the portion of the population that are the very biggest and probably more mature. most hunters have never even seen that caliber of buck in the wild in their lifetime. so to say it's those results or nothing is a bit unrealistic.

I'm sure you also realize that subjective comroderie or economic boost aside. some are hard pressed to get the time off or justify it for a Monday opener. Especially if they're newer to hunting or not that serious. Saturday opener gets more people out in the woods the first days of the open season.

I have heard that many times, fact is when we had monday opener, there were more hunters all week as people took vacation, to hunt.. now. They don't use vacation and only hunt weekends, just my direct observations of the local hunters and the guys i hunt with..

[The_Real_TCIII]

Look at it like this Pa. has had AR’s for 14 years with up to 4pt’s on one side, and they just reach about 60% of the bucks kill are 2 1/2 years and older. So 40% are still 1 1/2 years old. (It’s called high grading)

Here in NY with little in the way of AR’s we stand at 52% of the bucks taken are 2 ½ years and older. So maybe in 5 or 6 years with passing on smaller bucks being now promoted we could be at the 60% mark and no one will be forced into AR’s. It will be just a attitude change.

I really struggle with that 52% number. How do they come by it?

[The_Real_TCIII]

As the article shows ar's do not produce bigger bucks as ny and pa are just about dead even every year in entries...my point is they are not nessary for what most hunter feel they will do which is create bigger bucks...the article shows they arent. The only way to grow bigger buck thay hunters that support ar seem to want would be to change season structure . That's all I said . I support neither and as I said on other thread I am quite content with deer management in nys..my only cage would be moving the opening back to a monday, to bring back camp comroderie, and economic boost to small towns and rural areas..

I miss the Monday opener so much! All the guys I know who only gun hunt do too. Used to be you came to camp Friday, bowhunt a bit, hunt Saturday if you want, hang a stand for he opener, relax, watch some football etc. Now it's all business, get there Friday if you can get the day off and be ready to go for Saturday

[Doc]

I don't expect you to understand the situation, but I assure you the risk on a co-op is very real.  Sure DEC isn't dragging them away with a citation or cuffs, that's not what we want.  Public ridicule is definitely there.  I've even had to diffuse some heated conversations where people were giving it right to the hunter who made or in one thought he made a mistake, and I'm one of the few that are the reason the restrictions were implemented.  Other situations were hunters getting told by the landowner to learn what happened and if it still continues to happen they'd have to find another place to hunt, even after hunting there for years.

 

my point isn't so much as what the state should or shouldn't do if pursuing ARs, but that hunters can and do deal with more complicated ones just fine.  I'm actually shocked with how little issues we actually do have or have heard of and how quickly the public finds out about deer that didn't make the cut.  your second paragraph about the deer being broadsided we heard none stop back when the spread restriction first came into play.  I type this in the sincerest way, you setting up a deer so it's broadsided as much as possible is the same as the rest of us.  making noises to stop a deer in all honesty happens more on TV shows than in real life.  I don't expect you to notice how often you can get a look at spread, because you don't have to.  there are times where a buck might not look your way, but I assure you bucks don't live their lives eyes straight forward.

 

finally, I'm not implying we should expect an ECO to look the other way or let you off when you're clearly at fault.  what I mean is ECO's are more likely to rely on the same visual inspection that lasts fractions of a second and at their discretion choose to take a another look.  they don't have the time and wouldn't be stopping every vehicle busting out a tape measure.  even so, honest mistakes do at times get off with warnings.  happened already this spring.  youth hunter with his dad turned themselves in.  one shot multiple jakes.

ARs don't have to be all doom and gloom.  I do think that NYS DEC should be open and realistic about what they're trying to achieve with them and not just say "hey people who are hunting in areas with ARs thinking it's the hunting is better", especially with any future push to expand them.  They should especially be hammering home why they just took a stance on preferring hunters pass yearling bucks.  "Because DEC said so." isn't a good enough answer and so far that's all so hunters know from what I'm hearing.

 

I'm sure there are all kinds of people that will make regulations as complex as possible and be real happy with that thinking they have set up the "perfect" set of rules. I personally tend to think the other way around. The K.I.S.S. principle is a good thing to aim for when constructing laws for environmental conservation law (or any other kind of law for that matter).

 

It is interesting that co-ops and landowner biases can involve such unfriendly disagreements and harsh results, but I don't see any of that negativity being of value to the perpetuation and health of hunting. I suppose it is just two different ways of looking at how hunting should be for the participants. Some like to see it regulated right to death with no care as to how practical it is to abide by whatever law is set up. I prefer to keep it all simple and easy to accommodate without setting land-mines when it comes to practical legal application.

[G-Man]

I agree doc, no reason For more laws that are only feel good. Personal choice is what is missing from to many things these days.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Not True?  Really?  So you say it does not happen at all?  Wrong answer. It happens a pile and more hunters are after the biggest buck they can get then there is the so called Mgmt hunter or whatever you want to call them. Its pretty simple to see by looking at the land getting ate up in leases by hunters looking to farm the land in food plots and such...So they can kill a big buck.

 

Its the way of the hunting world and will continue on for the foreseeable future. Its everywhere. On every picture and page of most books,Big bucks on most hunting products. Its everywhere.

 

Where exactly did I say it doesnt happen at all? You said "most kids", and I believe that is wrong. Maybe in the circles you run with, people are just all about inches, but thats not the way things are for most people. There is still alot more to hunting than antlers for the vast majority of people I have delt with in the hunting community over the years.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Where exactly did I say it doesnt happen at all? You said "most kids", and I believe that is wrong. Maybe in the circles you run with, people are just all about inches, but thats not the way things are for most people. There is still alot more to hunting than antlers for the vast majority of people I have delt with in the hunting community over the years.

Yes in your lets say..QDMA group i would say yes. In the real world its all about antler and inches. I mean come on. Even qdma brags to have what 60.000 members? I will give you every one of them and you still will be strangled  by the hunters that are all about killing the biggest,highest scoring buck they can. Heck even half of the qdma members will admit that they are all about the biggest they can get but they have this...Religion Disclaimer..that they throw in there about everything else that goes along with taking the biggest buck they can. Its not real hard to read!

[nyantler]

And, how would it affect new hunter recruitment?

I'm not saying it necessarily would... my point was that one argument against AR's is that hunters will drop out of hunting because they don't like being restricted.. if that is the case then losing hunting days and not being able to use a gun during rut should have the same result. Retention not really recruitment.

[nyantler]

As the article shows ar's do not produce bigger bucks as ny and pa are just about dead even every year in entries...my point is they are not nessary for what most hunter feel they will do which is create bigger bucks...the article shows they arent. The only way to grow bigger buck thay hunters that support ar seem to want would be to change season structure . That's all I said . I support neither and as I said on other thread I am quite content with deer management in nys..my only cage would be moving the opening back to a monday, to bring back camp comroderie, and economic boost to small towns and rural areas..

My comment wasn't meant for you.. I was just using your quote for a lead-in. I agree that AR's in the form being used in NY and PA don't go far enough to actually create big bucks in large numbers. But, if you look at the size of the record book class bucks in PA since AR's started and you will see a big difference in overall size and numbers of those bucks.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... AR's are only one item necessary in an overall deer management plan to improve the age structure among the buck population... bigger bucks are just a by-product of good management. AR's on their own is not deer management. I think we are trying to hard to manage whitetails in NYS with no actual goal in mind of where we want it to take us.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yes in your lets say..QDMA group i would say yes. In the real world its all about antler and inches. I mean come on. Even qdma brags to have what 60.000 members? I will give you every one of them and you still will be strangled  by the hunters that are all about killing the biggest,highest scoring buck they can. Heck even half of the qdma members will admit that they are all about the biggest they can get but they have this...Religion Disclaimer..that they throw in there about everything else that goes along with taking the biggest buck they can. Its not real hard to read!

 

Oh here you go with your anti-QDMA rant, and trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I said that people dont want to kill the biggest buck on their property. I never said that. Go back and read what I said.

 

Do you actually think that the only experience I have with the hunting community has been in my 4 or 5 years with the QDMA? Ive been around hunting all of my life, and have been hunting myself since I was 14.

 

I understand your obsession with inches, and the reason why you think its so important, its related to your income. Not hard to figure out. I do have to say though, your view of what reality is in hunting for the average guy is pretty skewed because of it.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Oh here you go with your anti-QDMA rant, and trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I said that people dont want to kill the biggest buck on their property. I never said that. Go back and read what I said.

 

Do you actually think that the only experience I have with the hunting community has been in my 4 or 5 years with the QDMA? Ive been around hunting all of my life, and have been hunting myself since I was 14.

 

I understand your obsession with inches, and the reason why you think its so important, its related to your income. Not hard to figure out. I do have to say though, your view of what reality is in hunting for the average guy is pretty skewed because of it.

Well guess what..I have had hunting property since 15 years old and have always has an obsession for big bucks with big racks.I just happened to turn that into making a good living.  I say qdma because they are about the only ones that will say..I want a big buck but there is so much more!  Well bottom line is they want the big buck first.

 

I can promise ya that if we stood in front of Bass Pro Shop and asked every hunter what their first wish is when it comes to deer hunting and 8 out of 10 will say...The big 10pt i have been watching on my trail cam or something like..The biggest buck i can find.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well guess what..I have had hunting property since 15 years old and have always has an obsession for big bucks with big racks.I just happened to turn that into making a good living.  I say qdma because they are about the only ones that will say..I want a big buck but there is so much more!  Well bottom line is they want the big buck first.

 

I can promise ya that if we stood in front of Bass Pro Shop and asked every hunter what their first wish is when it comes to deer hunting and 8 out of 10 will say...The big 10pt i have been watching on my trail cam or something like..The biggest buck i can find.

 

Who are you to say thats what they want first? If you read enough of what they say, and become involved with the organization, you would see that the big buck is not the #1 thing they are about.

 

Im not going to argue with you about it, you have your mind made up on what you think reality is, but your big buck obsession is not shared by everyone, or even most people.