lead in ammunition

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Images you may have seen before.

 

Deer carcass X-ray (not field dressed). White spots are metal.

 

Lead Radiograph_credit_TPF.jpg

 

CT scan of meat from random samples from the ND Venison Donation Program 2008. The bright spots are metal - mostly lead, some copper. I know some of you consider 8 years ancient history but the point is, the metal gets in the meat, and grinding it mixes it well. Yes, well placed shots reduce the problem. Butchering yourself reduces the problem. Those are best case scenarios, not guarantees. And, they do nothing for scavengers.

 

Meat Scan w-credit.JPG

 

This is an X-ray of lead fragments inside an eagle.

 

eagle lead 021.JPG

 

FSW likes to imply I am not a hunter. He cannot seem to accept that someone can be both a hunter and a conservationist. I assure you all, I have killed scores of deer, most recently last fall. FSW is blowing hot air.

 

As far as the charges that I want a ban. I actually think a ban would be harmful. My goal in this discussion is to reduce eagle deaths. The question is: what is the best way to accomplish that? A ban is not. Considering how little the average hunter knows about bullet fragmentation, education is needed. If you haven't watched the video, please do so with an open mind.

 

If anything I post disturbs you, I have provided a warning at the bottom of every post.

I can come on here and say i have millions but words are cheap and also a persons words really does say something about their life. I would give you the bird loving conservation with your words but hunter??? Not so much. But your story, Stick to it.

[ATbuckhunter]

I can come on here and say i have millions but words are cheap and also a persons words really does say something about their life. I would give you the bird loving conservation with your words but hunter??? Not so much. But your story, Stick to it.

What are your reasons for not believing he is a hunter? Is it simply for the fact that he chooses not to use lead bullets and wants to spread information that caused him to switch? This isn't a dig at you, just me being curious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What are your reasons for not believing he is a hunter? Is it simply for the fact that he chooses not to use lead bullets and wants to spread information that caused him to switch? This isn't a dig at you, just me being curious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you look at his time on this site from everything from Yotes,Birds all the way to deer. Never any talk of game taken, Never any talk of guns or bows, Never any talk of trips or game taken, Never any talk of family/kids hunts. But always talk about saving the animals and the birds. Conservation i will give him..Maybe even a touch of PETA in the mix but the hunter sure does not show.

 

Regardless, With this subject and lead being used for how many years on how many animals eaten by how many hunters= No Problems!

 

But to save the birds we all really should bury our gut piles. Funny how they have a problem with the birds catching something but not worried about those same birds spreading something.

[Rattler]

1 - What are you talking about? You quote me and immediately go into the waterfowl issue. I never mentioned waterfowl or anything to do with that. 

 

2 - I have spoken to hundreds of hunters on this issue. They are not stupid. However, most - way more than half - have been totally unaware of the lead fragmentation issue.       That is empirical knowledge, not a "superiority complex". Most hunters who learn that there is an alternative, one that performs better and lowers risk, at little increased cost switch.

 

3 - While no one here is advocating any regulation, you, and some of your compatriots are opposing education. You don't want the information out there.

 

4 - Why are you so angry?

 

 

You didn't mention the waterfowl lead ban, but someone else here did.  Maybe some hunters don't know about lead ammo issues, but most non-hunters know even less.  Posting what you did on YouTube will be used as more fodder for the anti-gun, as well as anti-hunting crowd.  You're helping their cause.  

 

You are not advocating any regulation, but you are priming the pump for it, and I suspect you know that.  You want the information out there in the general public so people will get involved and do your regulatory demands for you.  

 

I'm not angry at all.  Just looking to expose the end game you are obviously looking to accomplish.

 

Have you given any consideration to what a lead ammo ban, on the national level, might do to all ammo production, producers, costs, employees of ammo makers, military defense supplies, gun control, anti-hunting gains or anything outside of the ammo affecting raptors?  I'm concerned about the unintended consequences of someone's single minded zeal.

 

How about just posting your info where hunters will see it and keeping it out of the realm of people who hate all firearms and hunting?

 

How about pushing hunters using lead ammo to bury the gut pile?  Better yet, only shoot deer in the neck or head if using lead ammo?

 

I have a real aversion to anything, anyone wants to add to the "Ban" wagon in this country.  So far, every ban I've seen has created as many issues as it has solved.  It just puts the burden of the issues on someone else.

 

Sorry if this sounds angry.  It's grave concern you're reading, not vitriol.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Rattler

[vlywaterman]

"Have you given any consideration to what a lead ammo ban, on the national level, might do to all ammo production, producers, costs, employees of ammo makers, military defense supplies, gun control,"

 

Mr. Rattler,

even in CA where the complete ban will go into effect in 2019(I think), it is just for hunting. Do you think people in CA will stop shooting? There may be new businesses formed, making or distributing copper,,, such as Pierce Ammunition right here in NY. They were laying people off because they had too much in stock. If you looked at one of my previous posts, the military is switching, for environmental reasons and because it shoots better. "gun control",,I don't know, there will always be and always have been people opposed to hunting, but hunters have often been the conservationists, ones who knew the most about the wildlife, spent the most time in the wild, and would have the most at stake for protecting the environment. Showing our commitment to protecting some icon like the bald eagle would only seem to publicly promote our cause.  

About only talking to hunters about this. I will talk to whoever will listen, as far as I can determine the science is there, if one will objectively look at it. 

I have another pet peeve that I am trying to use to get my point across. In NYS hunters donate almost 80,000lbs of venison each year to the venison donation program. It goes to food pantries across the state as ground meat. It is a great program. But there are no warnings on the packages that it may contain lead. If I were to donate beef to the program it would need to pass certain tests and standards. Because it is game meat, it does not. PA does almost 100,000 lbs, I asked the coordinator if the meat was ever tested,,,, " why should we, we have never had a problem". I think not just hunters, but everyone should know this, particularly people who get this ground meat from the program. NH doesn't have donation program, but confiscated deer are donated to people in need. I asked if they were concerned with lead in the meat, "listen, they are getting this for nothing, I don't think they are concerned about lead". Some states at least put warnings on the packages. 

[DirtTime]

You didn't mention the waterfowl lead ban, but someone else here did.  Maybe some hunters don't know about lead ammo issues, but most non-hunters know even less.  Posting what you did on YouTube will be used as more fodder for the anti-gun, as well as anti-hunting crowd.  You're helping their cause.  

 

You are not advocating any regulation, but you are priming the pump for it, and I suspect you know that.  You want the information out there in the general public so people will get involved and do your regulatory demands for you.  

 

I'm not angry at all.  Just looking to expose the end game you are obviously looking to accomplish.

 

Have you given any consideration to what a lead ammo ban, on the national level, might do to all ammo production, producers, costs, employees of ammo makers, military defense supplies, gun control, anti-hunting gains or anything outside of the ammo affecting raptors?  I'm concerned about the unintended consequences of someone's single minded zeal.

 

How about just posting your info where hunters will see it and keeping it out of the realm of people who hate all firearms and hunting?

 

How about pushing hunters using lead ammo to bury the gut pile?  Better yet, only shoot deer in the neck or head if using lead ammo?

 

I have a real aversion to anything, anyone wants to add to the "Ban" wagon in this country.  So far, every ban I've seen has created as many issues as it has solved.  It just puts the burden of the issues on someone else.

 

Sorry if this sounds angry.  It's grave concern you're reading, not vitriol.

It will always be some cause or crusade. "Assault weapons", lead ammo, auto emissions, it won't stop. But, everyone is still entitled to an opinion and are free to speak that opinion.

I get the hazards of lead harming birds, I just don't think it's the huge issue some are creating. Just my opinion.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It will always be some cause or crusade. "Assault weapons", lead ammo, auto emissions, it won't stop. But, everyone is still entitled to an opinion and are free to speak that opinion.

I get the hazards of lead harming birds, I just don't think it's the huge issue some are creating. Just my opinion.

True Dat!! And some would like to cause a pile of negatives to have maybe one positive.  Not a good line to follow.

[DirtTime]

Second line of my signature.

 

It goes without saying that in a democracy everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions. The trouble starts when people think they are also entitled to their own facts.

 

 

[Padre86]

 

I feel like I am trying to put information out there that people can read that is not someones opinion, but rather scientific papers or based on papers. And I think if one looks honestly at the information, even if one isn't quite sure,, why risk feeding lead to your family.

And, having shot both, the copper groups better, kills better, and, I don't worry about any lead contamination.

check this out if you wonder about copper's effectiveness: http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/tortured-path-armys-m855a1-ar-15/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=122615chronicle&utm_campaign=CH122615-torturedpatharmysm855a1ar15 

 

You might be putting out informative studies, but the conclusions that you are drawing from them are what I question.

 

Again, if shooting deer with lead bullets is such a health risk, why hasn't anyone conducted a comprehensive and comparative study demonstrating the difference in lead blood levels between two sample populations: those who do eat lead-shot venison; and those who don't?  The only study that even comes close to covering that topic was the 2008 ND study, which showed that people eating lead-shot venison still had lower lead levels than the US population as a whole.

 

I'm agnostic on this topic as a whole; if scientific review demonstrates that there is a measurable health risk from eating lead-shot game, I'll stop using lead.  But I do question the methodology and tone assumed by some here.  If the science is settled on this matter, please show me the studies which settle it.  I'm not interested in listening to someone preach from their pulpit.

 

Edit: Also, I'd be interested in seeing someone chime in on the performance characteristics of lead and copper bullets.  As I understand it, there are some inherent pro's/con's associated with each type.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Padre86

[EspressoBuzz]

I'm agnostic on this topic as a whole; if scientific review demonstrates that there is a measurable health risk from eating lead-shot game, I'll stop using lead.  But I do question the methodology and tone assumed by some here.  If the science is settled on this matter, please show me the studies which settle it.  I'm not interested in listening to someone preach from their pulpit.

 

I have seen and read study after study conducted about lead and lead ammo and all agree with each other to a great degree. BUT, last night I slept at a Holiday inn Express so i too question the methodology and results of these test now. I may not be a scientist or researcher but I sure feel like one!!

[jjb4900]

one thing I know for sure, lead bullets are definitely deadly to deer.....

[Rattler]

If you extrapolate into the future where this lead ammo concern is going, you can't deny eventually all lead ammo, shot shells with bird shot, even when used for small game, as well as rifle bullets down to the .22LR, will all be questioned and eventually all be attacked until banned.

 

I have serious concerns with this, especially when you understand this will be on the NATIONAL level, as was steel ammo for migratory bird hunting.  Imagine how this will impact ammo suppliers and ammo supplies in general.  I don't think manufacturers would be capable of meeting the demand in the beginning and that may last for years.  Supply and demand affects cost to buyers too.

 

This would be a huge change to current ammo production and would have ripple effects throughout the entire shooting world, including military and law enforcement.  I don't like making these type of sweeping changes without knowing what the effects will be until it's too late.  Nobody wants bald eagles to die and we are all looking to prevent that, but at what cost?

 

[vlywaterman]

I think I'm getting a bit worn out here. I put up scientific studies, but I am not sure anyone reads them. Where are the facts or studies that claim there is no harm in using lead ammunition for hunting? Someone wanted a study where they tested people eating game meat,,, but it had to be a new study,,,, so I put up the one form Greenland,,, or did it have to be from the US? I keep hearing about the CDC study and how the folks who ate game meat still had a lower blood level than the national average. Didn't anyone hear my point that it was still 50% higher than those that did not eat game meat? Didn't anyone read that the CDC also said there is no safe level of lead and no level for kids that has no negative effects?

And about the ban and what it might do to our economy, hunting, or ability to get ammo. The ban in CA is being phased in over a many years, the complete ban(again only for hunting), will begin in 2019,,,,,,,, don't you think that 4 years might give hunters and ammo manufacturers some time to get this figured out?

If I can't present enough evidence for someone to switch, then I think I'm not doing a good job, and I will work on that, and do accept that. But, one must at least look at the evidence that is presented, so we can have an intelligent discussion on the merits of the studies.

[airedale]

Not so fast, says the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which issued a news release proclaiming that the study confirms that traditional ammunition is not a public health risk. The release, in part, reads:

  

As noted in a media advisory released by the North Dakota Department of Health, the highest lead level reading of an adult study participant was still below the CDC accepted lead level threshold for that of a child, and significantly lower than the CDC accepted lead level threshold for that of an adult. Furthermore, during a tele-press conference hosted by the ND Department of Health, officials stated they could not verify whether this adult even consumed game harvested with traditional ammunition. Correspondingly, the study only showed an insignificant 0.3 micrograms per deciliter difference between participants who ate wild game harvested with traditional ammunition and non-hunters in the control group.

 

 

 

November 6, 2008Special EditionCDC Study Shows No Health RiskAssociated with Traditional AmmunitionA Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) study on human lead levels of hunters in North Dakota has confirmed what hunters throughout the world have known for hundreds of years, that consuming game harvested with traditional ammunition poses absolutely no health risk to people, including children, and that the call to ban lead ammunition was and remains a scare tactic being pushed by anti-hunting groups to forward their political agenda.Today, additional information became available about the CDC study, originally released yesterday, that is important to disseminate to hunters, their families and the general public about the total and complete lack of any evidence of a human health risk from consuming game harvested using traditional ammunition. For instance, in the study the average lead level of the hunters tested was lower than that of the average American.In the CDC's study, children's lead levels had a mean of just 0.88 micrograms per deciliter, which is less than half the national average for children and an infinitesimally small fraction of the level that the CDC considers to be of concern for children (10 micrograms per deciliter). Yet, despite the total and complete lack of any evidence from this study of the existence of a human health risk, the Department of Health nevertheless urges that children under 6 and pregnant women not eat venison harvested using traditional ammunition. The North Dakota Department of Health's recommendation is based on a "zero tolerance" approach to the issue of blood lead levels that is not supported by science or the CDC's guidelines.To further put in perspective the claims concerning the safety of game harvested using traditional ammunition, consider this statement from the Iowa Department of Public Health (IDPH) -- a state agency that has conducted an extensive panel of blood-lead testing for more than 15 years: "IDPH maintains that if lead in venison were a serious health risk, it would likely have surfaced within extensive blood-lead testing since 1992 with 500,000 youth under 6 and 25,000 adults having been screened." It has not.

[airedale]

To say the current administration we have in this country has nothing to do with this subject is laughable, for me it is the biggest most obvious single indicator of all that this lead bullet crusade does not have much of a foot to stand on when it comes to human health problems.  Because he can not get any gun control legislation passed our president on national TV in an address to this nation said he will on his own pursue anything and everything by any means find a way to get something positive done for his anti gun agenda. Like I posted earlier a ban or restriction on lead based ammo would be the holy grail. The problem is that this line of attack will go down in smoke because anyone who has been involved in hunting and the consumption of game meat shot with conventional lead bullets knows of no case of anyone getting sick!!!

 

Al

Edited June 27, 2016 by airedale

[airedale]

Outdoor life's Online Editor's take on Mr VLYWaterman's study

 

      0

In its story, which shock waves through wildlife agencies and hunters’ forums, the AP went on to describe the dire symptoms of lead poisoning, but reported that “no sickness has been reported from lead-tainted venison” in North Dakota.

This “study” has some profound implications.

Are we hunters really injecting poison in the meat we bring home to feed our families? If so, then we need to know how we can help stop the epidemic. Is this North Dakota study just the leading edge of a public-health and conservation tsunami that will change the way we hunt? Will we start viewing the succulent backstrap from last fall’s buck not as healthy, fat-, hormone- and antibiotic-free protein but as contamination that can cause “confusion, learning problems and convulsions… brain damage and death,” as the AP reports?

Coming on the heels of California’s ban on lead bullets in the historic range of the endangered California condor, this news report from North Dakota would be especially unsettling if it wasn’t so flimsy.

For starters, the source of the health scare is suspect, even if his motivations are pure. Dr. William Cornatzer is a dermatologist, not an epidemiologist. Plus, he is on the board of The Peregrine Fund, an Idaho-based non-profit dedicated to raptor conservation that has lobbied hard to ban lead from condor country. The group is holding a conference in May entitled “Ingestion of Spent Lead Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans” (www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_conference/). Is Dr. Cornatzer’s study designed to foment outrage over home-freezer contamination leading up to the conference?

Then there’s the scientific validity of the study itself. Cornatzer’s initial investigation found detectable levels of lead in 53 of the 100 one-pound packages of ground venison he tested, according to the AP. That’s significant, but is it replicable? A follow-up study by North Dakota’s state health department found lead in all five samples of venison it tested. Disturbing, yes. But not as disturbing as the actions of public-health officials who extrapolated from this tiny sample that all hunter-harvested venison should be discarded.

Then there’s the oh-really nature of this report. I’m no Butcher Shop CSI forensic analyst, but I have a very hard time imagining lead “dust” in the hindquarters of my lung-shot deer. I have cut out jellied, bloodshot meat from many a front shoulder, but have difficulty believing that a bullet that passed through left debris in the backstraps or in the rump roasts.

But then, I butcher all my game myself whenever possible. For me, it’s the satisfying conclusion to a successful hunt, cutting and wrapping and labeling packages of protein that will sustain my family for the next year. And I am very careful that the meat I preserve isn’t contaminated with hair, dirt or blood.

I don’t like taking my meat to commercial butchers because I don’t know how they will handle it. Will they take the same care I do to trim off bloodshot meat? Can I be sure I’m getting my own meat back? Do they grind unblemished meat with some that may be compromised? Most butchers do a top-notch job, but some probably cut corners. Did the Bismarck samples come from shoddy meat shops? Maybe a follow-up study should look at practices in commercial meat shops and not implicate hunters who kill animals with lead bullets.

Or maybe a study should investigate the prevalence of lead poisoning in hunters’ families. As in the very real lead-paint epidemic of the 1960s, there should be evidence of the problem in the population.

If I’m poisoning my family, I want to stop. And if bullet-spraying hunters are a public-health menace, let’s discover the depth of the problem and systematically resolve it. But I want to make those decisions based on peer-reviewed science, not alarmist do-gooding.

- Andrew McKean

 

[mike rossi]

To say the current administration we have in this country has nothing to do with this subject is laughable, for me it is the biggest most obvious single indicator of all that this lead bullet crusade does not have much of a foot to stand on when it comes to human health problems. Be serious. 

 

 

 

 

Not so fast, says the National Shooting Sports Foundation, Not a reliable source of information. I have read many things they have published that are incorrect.

 

 . Correspondingly, the study only showed an insignificant 0.3 micrograms per deciliter difference between participants who ate wild game harvested with traditional ammunition and non-hunters in the control group. No level of blood lead is considered safe. 0.3 micrograms is significant. In a pregnant women it is more significant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.  Posting what you did on YouTube will be used as more fodder for the anti-gun, as well as anti-hunting crowd.  You're helping their cause.  Take a look at the post I just made. Hunters always think they are a head of the antis. Not so. 

 

You are not advocating any regulation, but you are priming the pump for it, and I suspect you know that.  You want the information out there in the general public so people will get involved and do your regulatory demands for you.  The target audience of this video is clearly hunters, However, I did notice whoever posted it on you-tube did not have it set to target hunters. I told Tom, and he talked to them about fixing it. 

 

 

How about just posting your info where hunters will see it and keeping it out of the realm of people who hate all firearms and hunting?

I did come across two persons mis-directing this video already. That isnt Tom's fault and is not going to have a huge impact anyway becuase there are many videos on this topic. They are probably a little more exited about this one because it is NY. I did my best to talk to one of these persons. It is impossible to get info out to hunters and exclude antis,  again, look at two posts I made today for  proof of that. Mis-directing the video could be anti-hunting zeal, but it could also be plain absent - mindedness. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by mike rossi

[Dinsdale]

Just curious for the non-lead folks out there.....

 

I've done market culling for human consumption where venison was headed to the European market place. This is all head-shot/high neck shot (base of the skull) shooting, actually there is a penalty for the shooter if a follow up body shot is needed as it degrades value of the carcass. That's also true in England where estates sell off venison to the general public, head shots are the norm.

 

Anyway, neck meat is ground and I know we were using some soft South African sourced bullets in handloads and i dropped over 100 animals in an evening mostly with the high neck shot. Lets just say those bullets fragmented as evidenced from the wounds left.

 

Any studies from overseas on this type of contamination?

 

Must be; I've seen local sourced venison in markets in both France and Spain hunting. A Mouflon I shot was on the menu a few days later at my hotel restaurant in Salsona, Spain! (He was damn tasty too!) 

 

Culled game meat is standard fare for many places right in the meat case at the local grocery store.

[mike rossi]

Just curious for the non-lead folks out there.....

 

I've done market culling for human consumption where venison was headed to the European market place. This is all head-shot/high neck shot (base of the skull) shooting, actually there is a penalty for the shooter if a follow up body shot is needed as it degrades value of the carcass. That's also true in England where estates sell off venison to the general public, head shots are the norm.

 

Anyway, neck meat is ground and I know we were using some soft South African sourced bullets in handloads and i dropped over 100 animals in an evening mostly with the high neck shot. Lets just say those bullets fragmented as evidenced from the wounds left.

 

Any studies from overseas on this type of contamination?

 

Must be; I've seen local sourced venison in markets in both France and Spain hunting. A Mouflon I shot was on the menu a few days later at my hotel restaurant in Salsona, Spain! (He was damn tasty too!) 

 

Culled game meat is standard fare for many places right in the meat case at the local grocery store.

 

Yup there are over sea studies with the same conclusions. look em up.

[vlywaterman]

based on the CDC study this is what ND came up with, and it really wouldn't matter whether Cornatzer was a doctor or garbage man would it? he didn't do the study.

https://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/

Based on the results of the CDC blood lead level study and a Minnesota bullet study, the North Dakota Department of Health has developed the following recommendations to minimize the risk of harm to people who are most vulnerable to the effects of lead:

• Pregnant women and children younger than 6 should not eat any venison harvested with lead bullets. 
• Older children and other adults should take steps to minimize their potential exposure to lead, and use their judgment about consuming game that was taken using lead-based ammunition.
• The most certain way of avoiding lead bullet fragments in wild game is to hunt with non-lead bullets.
• Hunters and processors should follow the processing recommendations developed by the North Dakota Department of Agriculture.

And from the CDC recently as they reduced the level that they recommend intervention at.

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclpp/blood_lead_levels.htm

Protecting children from exposure to lead is important to lifelong good health. No safe blood lead level in children has been identified. Even low levels of lead in blood have been shown to affect IQ, ability to pay attention, and academic achievement. And effects of lead exposure cannot be corrected.

Reference Level

• Experts now use a reference level of 5 micrograms per deciliter to identify children with blood lead levels that are much higher than most children’s levels. This new level is based on the U.S. population of children ages 1-5 years who are in the highest 2.5% of children when tested for lead in their blood.
•  

most people don't get sick from eating lead, the lead mimics calcium, and so it is deposited in bones and muscle tissue especially in youngsters, and it screws up your nervous system which includes the brain.

Even when chelation is done, and lead levels are brought down,,, it is permanent damage,,, 

also from the CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/data/

There is no known safe BLL. Exposure to lead can seriously harm a child’s health. Millions of children are being exposed to lead in their homes, increasing their risks for

• damage to the brain and nervous system,
• slowed growth and development,
• learning and behavior problems (e.g., reduced IQ, ADHD, juvenile delinquency, and criminal behavior), and
• hearing and speech problems.

I rest my case.

If you want to risk feeding lead to your family, that is your choice, no they probably wont die from it , or even get sick from it, but, can you just dismiss all that is in red above from the CDC? 

[vlywaterman]

yes, there are lots of papers about this from other countries, like this recent one:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47395320_Implications_for_wildlife_and_humans_of_dietary_exposure_to_lead_from_fragments_of_lead_rifle_bullets_in_deer_shot_in_the_UK

 

and on the other side of the pond, it is also science vs non-science:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/countryside/11924359/Countryside-at-odds-over-lead-risk-to-children-who-eat-game.html

 

 

[airedale]

can you just dismiss all that is in red above from the CDC? 

 

The answer to your question is absolutely for the simple reason I butcher and properly take care to remove and discard any questionable meat that I suspect may have lead in it. If by chance any got by me the amount would be insignificant. I have a better chance of hitting the Powerball Lottery than getting lead sickness from  venison I have eaten.

 

Al

Edited June 27, 2016 by airedale

[airedale]

To say the current administration we have in this country has nothing to do with this subject is laughable, for me it is the biggest most obvious single indicator of all that this lead bullet crusade does not have much of a foot to stand on when it comes to human health problems.  Because he can not get any gun control legislation passed our president on national TV in an address to this nation said he will on his own pursue anything and everything by any means find a way to get something positive done for his anti gun agenda. Like I posted earlier a ban or restriction on lead based ammo would be the holy grail. The problem is that this line of attack will go down in smoke because anyone who has been involved in hunting and the consumption of game meat shot with conventional lead bullets knows of no case of anyone getting sick!!!

 

Al

 

Mike Rossi Says "Be Serious"

 

I am dead serious Mr Rossi, I take this president for his word when it comes to gun control, this administration just a few years ago tried to ban the sale of green tip 223 ammo, There is no question in my mind if they not only look at firearms to control they are also looking at any possibilities with ammo. and if they can find something to use they will.

 

Al

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Disclaimer....No humans  were injured or killed by lead poison from hunter harvested game in the 100's of years in use.  A bird or two may have bit the bullet but there does not seem to be big write ups where the birds are dropping in big numbers either.

 

Flame On!

[airedale]

"This boils down to an anti-hunting initiative," says Jess Brooks at Barnes Bullets, one of the leading manufacturers of non-toxic bullets. "It's as simple as that. We're not looking at this as a bullet-sales tool at all. We're looking at it as an issue to divide hunters and thin our ranks."