lead in ammunition

[mike rossi]

Or Audubon needs to start an ammo manufacturing plant, Audubon knows how to fund raise. Plus there will be goverment subsidies available. 

[vlywaterman]

good point, yes, the ammo giveaways seem to be what works best, I think they used that in AZ and maybe near the Tetons, where the NPS  offered exchanges for ammo. 

Maybe we should also focus on going to ranges and providing ammo to try, it sells itself when hunters shoot the rounds, they are always amazed at how much mass those copper jacketed rounds lose when shooting into water, and how the copper rounds retain almost all the mass while penetrating almost twice as far.

We did talk about the idea of using coupons to get hunters to try copper.

I do disagree that education won't work though. In the end, hunters will switch because they believe it is the best choice. Legislation is not the answer, I agree, and as most hunters know, we abide by rules and regulations not for fear of getting caught, but because we believe they are the practices that will preserve our environment and heritage as conservationists.

If we can get hunters to just try these rounds, they will see they group better, kill better, and that this isn't the slippery slope to take away our guns or cause undo financial hardship on hunters.

[mike rossi]

Another thing to look into is the recent legislation in NY to teach the tradition of hunting in public schools. You might work with the sponsors of that legislation to include a stipulation that the course includes ammunition education. it might not fly with the sponsors if they are wing nuts, but a deal can be hammered out in the assembly environmental conservation committee and/or the Governor before signing into law.  That might not even be needed, (to codify it into statue) depending on how the bill is written, it might leave the curriculum up to the DEC.If so, then the DEC can be trusted or during the regulation setting process make suggestions during the public comment phase > published in the state register.  

Edited June 29, 2016 by mike rossi

[airedale]

Perceived problem would be easily resolved with better and more explicit instructions on the dos and don't of preparing all game meats for consumption in both the big and small game hunting syllabus and also touching on the same in depth for new hunters taking the hunters training course.

 

Of course anyone with a half a brain knows what the real agenda of all this baloney is.

 

Al

Edited June 29, 2016 by airedale

[mike rossi]

No doubt if this hunting in the classroom passes, there is going to be a citizen advisory board, and as with things of this nature it will be codified that a designated number of this board represent the NYS Conservation Council; the FWMB, and the CFAB. That means business as usual. 

 

Changing the subject slightly, I do not wish it, but it is likely, that if Audubon et al lobbied for certain stipulations regarding education they would experience a push-back. That might provide a perspective to the magnitude of push back that would result from legislation to ban lead ammo, a push back that would be much harder than from a simple education proposal.  

[Curmudgeon]

Perceived problem would be easily resolved with better and more explicit instructions on the dos and don't of preparing all game meats for consumption in both the big and small game hunting syllabus and also touching on the same in depth for new hunters taking the hunters training course.

 

Al

 

Al - Are you volunteering to push this? I don't disagree that you could improve meat quality but eagles are what got me into this, and your solution does nothing for that problem.

 

No doubt if this hunting in the classroom passes, there is going to be a citizen advisory board, and as with things of this nature it will be codified that a designated number of this board represent the NYS Conservation Council; the FWMB, and the CFAB. That means business as usual. 

 

Changing the subject slightly, I do not wish it, but it is likely, that if Audubon et al lobbied for certain stipulations regarding education they would experience a push-back. That might provide a perspective to the magnitude of push back that would result from legislation to ban lead ammo, a push back that would be much harder than from a simple education proposal.  

 

Mike -

 

The Audubon name is in the public domain so it gets confusing at times. Audubon NY didn't even know about the video until they saw a news item. They probably have google searching daily for anything with the name Audubon in it. If they pay lip service to this issue, we have accomplished something. Yes, there is a policy on their web site but try to find one thing they have actually done. As to whether DEC can be trusted to include non-lead info in educational programs, the rank and file people in the trenches want something done. That's where the WMA idea came from - within the agency. Once you get near the top of the F&W division, politics takes over and this issue is radioactive. My guess is that for Cuomo, the cost benefit calculus doesn't work well on this one. There is a new Chief Biologist who seems well informed and open minded. There will be a new head of the Division soon. The old one is retiring. It will be interesting to see if things change. 

[mike rossi]

 

 

Mike -

 

The Audubon name is in the public domain so it gets confusing at times. Audubon NY didn't even know about the video until they saw a news item. They probably have google searching daily for anything with the name Audubon in it. If they pay lip service to this issue, we have accomplished something. Yes, there is a policy on their web site but try to find one thing they have actually done. As to whether DEC can be trusted to include non-lead info in educational programs, the rank and file people in the trenches want something done. That's where the WMA idea came from - within the agency. Once you get near the top of the F&W division, politics takes over and this issue is radioactive. My guess is that for Cuomo, the cost benefit calculus doesn't work well on this one. There is a new Chief Biologist who seems well informed and open minded. There will be a new head of the Division soon. The old one is retiring. It will be interesting to see if things change. 

 

My intent was discussing possible actions that might actually work. Many people do not understand the different levels of the Audubon Society, but that is not me. If they are serious about getting the lead out they need to start thinking outside the box. Legislation and education of older hunters is inside the box.  

 

Many states already ban lead on wildlife management areas. Some of these bans have existed over 20 years. A model after that is no surprise. I did not hear that from any DEC staff, however, I already told you who I heard it from. I am sure dec staff has made  recommendations to follow that, but this is going off topic.  

 

Hashing over the executive control over following the suggestions of other DEC staff is not a productive use of time. The DEC makes recommendations but the final say is with the Legislature and Governor. The Legislature and Governor are in turn influenced by the public. That said can we move on?  

 

Also, you are contradicting yourself. The change in staff will not change anything which requires legislative approval. Even natural resource plans and changes in regulations are subject to public review. Sometimes if public outcry is loud enough, even a plan or regulation can be legislated - example the mute swan plan. 

 

Whether it is Audubon, Audubon - NY State, a county chapter of Audubon, some other organization, or a coalition of organizations is not the focus of my comment. I was referring to the action, not the entities. 

 

Regarding the policy goals of Audubon NY. I had refereed to that earlier because several people had indicated your video would encourage or facilitate legislation. The video is speaking to hunters, not anyone else. It isnt telling anyone to contact the Legislature to ban lead ammo. However, it would be remiss not to mention that according to their website,  Audubon - NY does seek a policy change. The reason it would be remiss, is because the credits on your video list the Delaware County Chapter of Audubon. The chapter is not the same as A-NY, I understand that. It is not me you need to explain that to.  

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by mike rossi

[erussell]

anyone else have problems with copper solids not expanding in deer? i stopped using them when i had to shoot a deer 3 times to kill it. tiny hole in tiny hole out. i dont think they expanded at all. The last one i ever used on a deer i found it in the deers off side shoulder not expanded. almost didnt find the deer. snow on the ground no blood. but i found hair. so i followed it up and found th edeer 100 yrds from where i shot it. only blood was wher eit dropped. switcheod to lead hollowpoints and havent had a problem yet.

[WNYBuckHunter]

anyone else have problems with copper solids not expanding in deer? i stopped using them when i had to shoot a deer 3 times to kill it. tiny hole in tiny hole out. i dont think they expanded at all. The last one i ever used on a deer i found it in the deers off side shoulder not expanded. almost didnt find the deer. snow on the ground no blood. but i found hair. so i followed it up and found th edeer 100 yrds from where i shot it. only blood was wher eit dropped. switcheod to lead hollowpoints and havent had a problem yet.

 

I had that issue, and switched to SSTs and Accutips

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

anyone else have problems with copper solids not expanding in deer? i stopped using them when i had to shoot a deer 3 times to kill it. tiny hole in tiny hole out. i dont think they expanded at all. The last one i ever used on a deer i found it in the deers off side shoulder not expanded. almost didnt find the deer. snow on the ground no blood. but i found hair. so i followed it up and found th edeer 100 yrds from where i shot it. only blood was wher eit dropped. switcheod to lead hollowpoints and havent had a problem yet.

Same here in my little 20. Was a tack driver with Solids but givin it was a 20 and they would just zip right thru it was like i missed the shot totally.

[erussell]

ya shot it 3 times 40 yrds hand size group through the lungs. we just stood there looking at eachother. lol i reloaded and was about to shoot again as he walked off but finally tipped over. took him a while to expire. i wasnt to happy. if i had hit him higher i probably would have had to shoot him 3 more times.

[Rattler]

I've heard of problems with copper bullets expanding at long range.  They need high velocity to expand, and at long distances the velocity isn't enough to make them expand well.  Never heard of issues at close range until now.  I'm sure different copper bullets work differently, just as lead ones do.  Guess it takes some testing to be sure what will work.

 

The point here is, you can't assume switching to copper will be a great leap forward.

[Curmudgeon]

Never had a problem. The 2 we've recovered were just like the photos - 4 leaf clovers. What brand bullets for the 3 shot group in the lungs and the deer just stood there?

 

From the AZ fish and game dept: "93 percent of Kaibab deer hunters say that non-lead bullets perform as well as or better than lead bullets on game."

Edited July 1, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[airedale]

The science of killing with bullets was figured out long ago, there are two schools of thought and both work well with correct bullets. High velocity with an expanding bullet that develop so called shock and the big bore large diameter bullets producing a big hole.

 

The big bore handgun hunters found out that shooting any big game with round nose or semi pointed bullets  constructed with lead or a solid jacketed alloy at handgun velocities slipped through the flesh causing much less damage than an expanding bullet and while they will certainly kill their performance is pretty much described in the posts above. With lead two things can be done to help, a large hollow point or a semi wadcutter design as in the Keith cast bullets that instead of slipping through flesh the sharp edges cut and cause a wound channel with much more damage and bleeding.

 

With solid copper it is all about high velocity, at shotgun velocities there is little that can be done to get any expansion at shotgun speed. Most I have seen are fired with a sabot making their actual diameter even smaller than the gauge. The best bet for improving performance with copper slugs is some kind of semi wadcutter configuration that will shoot accurately.

 

Al

Edited July 1, 2016 by airedale

[vlywaterman]

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Remington-Premier-Copper-Solid-Sabot-Slugs/705574.uts

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/ammo-12-gauge-remington-premier-copper-solid-sabot-slug-3-1-ounce-hollow-point-1550-fps-5-round-box-pr12mcs-047700310107.do

 

I don't believe this video, I have used these slugs and shot them in water, always expanded beautifully,but I'm putting it out there to be honest and not cherry pick. But, read the comments after the video,,, and  the last box of these I bought was $12 in Margaretville at Del Sports.

[Larry]

The copper solid slug they were using was the first stile they came out with. Remington doesn’t make that stile anymore. I have used both stiles and the old stile did not expand but the new stile works well and they shot very well out of my 870. The only reason I don’t use them when I use a shotgun for deer I found a slug that shot just as good and work as good for ½ the price.

[Rattler]

Well here's a new development regarding copper bullets.  Anti-gun groups are starting to push their anti cop killer bullet campaign again.  Guess what bullets are being added to the list of bullets that must be banned?  Copper rifle bullets.

 

Imagine if they were the only bullets being made today.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Well here's a new development regarding copper bullets.  Anti-gun groups are starting to push their anti cop killer bullet campaign again.  Guess what bullets are being added to the list of bullets that must be banned?  Copper rifle bullets.

 

Imagine if they were the only bullets being made today.

 

 

Red Herring. We are asking people to use copper solids for hunting, hunting only, voluntarily, a couple of rounds per year. If the anti-gun groups had their way, it wouldn't matter what ammo we were talking about. Anti-gun groups will do what anti-gun groups do.

 

Someone I spoke to at the Peregrine Fund told me the only lobbying they have ever done was to keep solid copper bullets from being restricted due to their ability to penetrate body armor. 

[Rattler]

If they get their way and outlaw bullets that can penetrate a cops body armor, all rifle bullets will be banned.  But if they are forced to compromise, like so many people believe solves problems, Teflon coated and copper bullets may be the ones to go.  Just a heads up for you guys.

 

[jjb4900]

don't birds have significantly different digestive systems then mammals? birds have gizzards that grind up their food, which would obviously give the lead a better and easier path into the body as opposed to a mammal....would it not? I would think if a human ate a few pieces of lead shot here and there, they would pass the majority of it before it does any harm.....unless you were eating it on a weekly or daily basis, I would think it has a minimal effect on people. I may very well be way off and totally wrong, but just a thought.

[vlywaterman]

That is a good point. I believe(just thinking) that a pellet or two would pass much easier than these tiny particle the size of pepper flakes or smaller, and the surface area of these tiny prattles would seem much greater as well in terms of your acids breaking them down so they can be absorbed into the blood stream. For most birds, that do have gizzards, there is a double problem, not only are they getting some lead from the possible food they eat, but for many birds like doves, the pellets they eat are what they think are the perfect size gravel for their gizzards so they sit in there being ground up. Some birds(even of the same species) are more tolerant, and some, even eagles seem to be able to regurgitate the contaminated stuff. Look at the study where they were intentionally poisoning eagles with lead. A wide range. http://huntingwithnonlead.org/PDFs_Main/Bald%20eagle%20lead%20dosing%20study.pdf

And as was mentioned and referenced earlier, people ,,, and pigs who ate game meat had higher blood lead levels than those that did not.

 

[jjb4900]

quite honestly, I would say the crap we ingest on a daily basis from all the garbage that's put into the foods we buy and eat is 10x's worse then any small amount of lead we can ever introduce into our systems from the animals we kill with lead ammo......I'd rather eat a burger made from a deer I killed with a lead bullet over a Big Mac any day of the week, and probably be healthier for it. 

[Rattler]

I wonder what would happen to a bald eagle that ate a Big Mac?

 

[Padre86]

This back-and-forth shows that there are plenty of people looking for a cause to adopt and make their own.  All of a sudden lead bullets have become a topic of debate in the conservation circles.  In reality, there are much more pressing issues in NY, and elsewhere, that need to be addressed.

 

- I've not heard of hunters getting lead poison from eating wild game shot with lead bullets.  Maybe it has happened, but I haven't heard of those incidents.

- The lead levels of sample populations which eat wild game is generally about the same as the US population as a whole, if not slightly lower.

- And while there is some evidence to suggest that raptors and certain birds are more affected by the lead in game carcass, are any of those populations shrinking or under threat because of lead bullets?  Again referring to the Condor discussion in CA, that state's wildlife officials acknowledged (after the lead ban went into effect) there were other sources of contamination that were affecting that bird.

 

If my understanding of any of these issues changes drastically, I'll reconsider my stance on lead bullets.  As of now, I just don't see this as the crisis that some people are making it out to be, especially considering the environmental catastrophes that are taking place in most 3rd world countries.  We're sitting here arguing about tiny fragments of lead, meanwhile pretty much every undeveloped nation is dumping all kinds of waste and trash into their environment...it helps to keep things in perspective.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Padre86

[vlywaterman]

 I've not heard of hunters getting lead poison from eating wild game shot with lead bullets.  Maybe it has happened, but I haven't heard of those incidents.

- The lead levels of sample populations which eat wild game is generally about the same as the US population as a whole, if not slightly lower.

where did this come from? Did you read the posts?

 

And while there is some evidence to suggest that raptors and certain birds are more affected by the lead in game carcass, are any of those populations shrinking or under threat because of lead bullets?

some evidence? and are we only concerned about poisoning these birds if it causes a shrinking population?

 

Again referring to the Condor discussion in CA, that state's wildlife officials acknowledged (after the lead ban went into effect) there were other sources of contamination that were affecting that bird.

​the lead ban still has not gone completely into affect(2019), where else did they get the lead? 

 

Yes, there are other places, countries, that environmentally do horrific things, and this lead issue may seem trivial, but it is something you and I can do something about. I personally can't do anything about the raw sewage dumped into Rio's harbor, or Japan's slaughtering dolphins for pet food, or the Chinese dog meat festival, but I am trying to do my part here to stop the needless suffering of eagles and limit the possibilities of lead poisoning in children.