lead in ammunition

[vlywaterman]

 I did hope Mr. Bowguy was joking a bit,,,, it is pretty funny.

And that someone would get on Curmudgeon's case when no one got on the bowman's case is also funny.

But I'll let the invitation stand, you don't need to ask me to shoot with you, but if you do, I'll borrow a pick-up and leave my Prius with the Bernie bumper sticker home if that will make you feel better. 

[Bowguy 1]

The above post is so silly it makes me laugh. The lack if intelligence comes from no recent facts about lead ammo is the only thing killing Eagles ( or other predatory birds etc! ). It could be lead from polluted water, or even in the land itself. This come to a "Hunting Forum" and blame the hunters for all the animals that die is becoming ludicrous! The PETA sites are this way, ---------> .

Here's the front door:

[url=http://www.peta.org]http://www.peta.org[/url

?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Bowguy 1

[Bowguy 1]

I did hope Mr. Bowguy was joking a bit,,,, it is pretty funny.

And that someone would get on Curmudgeon's case when no one got on the bowman's case is also funny.

But I'll let the invitation stand, you don't need to ask me to shoot with you, but if you do, I'll borrow a pick-up and leave my Prius with the Bernie bumper sticker home if that will make you feel better.

I was just having a little fun w the post but Im not sold on the lead free stuff or anyone forcing save the earth on me but to each his own. We're all entitled to our beliefs

[Bowguy 1]

With attitudes like that expressed below, it is impossible to have an intelligent reasonable conversation. You wouldn't want to shoot with someone who has already decided he knows everything about you, and none of it is good.

You talk about attitudes but you seem to be kinda pig headed n only open to certain studies as being fact. This is kinda my point as I expressed the greenhouse effect scientific studies. There's a bunch of scientists that contradict but you seem the type that wouldn't believe any studies that don't support your cause.

How exactly is my not believing your information or disagreeing w it any dif than you?

Why would you consider anyone disagreeing w you unable to hold an "intelligent" conversation?

Hmmmm superiority complex? Who is actually the know it all? You're the pot calling the kettle black

[Padre86]

 I did hope Mr. Bowguy was joking a bit,,,, it is pretty funny.

And that someone would get on Curmudgeon's case when no one got on the bowman's case is also funny.

But I'll let the invitation stand, you don't need to ask me to shoot with you, but if you do, I'll borrow a pick-up and leave my Prius with the Bernie bumper sticker home if that will make you feel better. 

If I weren't on the other side of the state from you, I'd take you up on that offer.  I am actually interested in shooting some non-lead types just to see how they compare performance-wise.

 

Also, I really don't care if someone else, who calls himself a hunter, has completely different views from me.  This country was built to be a place where differing views on politics, religion, culture, life in general would be able to thrive and co-exist.  So you make reference to leaving your prius and Bernie sticker behind in order to make us traditional/conservative types feel more comfortable....maybe that was a joke, I don't know.  But either way, it doesn't matter to me and I don't consider you, or anyone else, any less of a hunter just because your political views are different from mine.  I might disagree with your opinions, but as said earlier, that's to be expected in a free society.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Padre86

[Curmudgeon]

There are actually quite a few on here who are willing to have an intelligent conversation on this topic and others.  But when you label those with opposing viewpoints as "angry" and imply that anyone who disagrees with you is misinformed, no one is going to take you seriously.

 

Earlier, I asked you some very earnest and direct questions about lead bullet and raptor studies you had referenced.  As well someone else had given a very thoughtful and well-articulated counter-point to your view, demonstrating that eagles, and raptor populations overall, have made a tremendous comeback over the last 20-30 years, despite our use of lead ammo.  I'm eager to see you respond to these posts and continue this conversation in a productive manner.

 

Or you can whine about how no one here is capable of an "intelligent" conversation and refuse to directly respond to others like a, well, curmudgeon.

 

Some of you missed the point entirely. It is bowman's defining vly as the Enemy that makes intelligent conversation impossible, nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[DirtTime]

Some of you missed the point entirely. It is bowman's defining vly as the Enemy that makes intelligent conversation impossible, nothing to do with the subject at hand.

You are joking right? We all 'Get The Point!". What some don't get is we are becoming jaded on this issue because the numbers of birds killed every year by lead poisoning is all due to hunters. I don't think so! The numbers don't even add up on these so called facts. The common numbers for this subject seem to all run the same, 10-20 million birds die from lead poisoning each year. You want intelligent? Lets look at the numbers. 10-20 million, estimated. 10 million is a huge difference, it's not like saying 2-3 hundred, were talking 10 million, pretty fantastical range to be 'unsure' about. Just sayin'. I am not buying those numbers at all. Sorry, JMO.

 

 

The above post is so silly it makes me laugh. The lack if intelligence comes from no recent facts about lead ammo is the only thing killing Eagles ( or other predatory birds etc! ). It could be lead from polluted water, or even in the land itself. This come to a "Hunting Forum" and blame the hunters for all the animals that die is becoming ludicrous! The PETA sites are this way, ---------> .

Here's the front door:

[url="http://www.peta.org"...://www.peta.org[/url

? 

 

Bowguy 1, what's the "?" for?

Let me clarify and be more direct. I don't buy that lead ammo is the huge cause of death to raptors as people try and make us believe. I just don't. I stated the reason why above this quote. It's getting way beyond ludicrous for people to keep blaming all the worlds woes on hunters and gun owners. An eagle died from lead poisoning, lets bann lead ammo for everyone! A terrorist slaughtered 50 people, lets blame law abiding gun owners and hunters. We hunters and gun owners are a tough brood, but, you keep piling all the BS that happens on us and we get pissed off!

 

If people are against things they should be hanging out with like minded people, if you come to a hunting site expecting everyone to agree with being told what we can and can't do, and think for one second you won't have opposition you are wrong.

 

Was that a better explanation Bowguy 1? No ill will meant towards you.

[Bowguy 1]

I wasn't sure Rob, I didn't think it was though but wasn't sure. We're good

[vlywaterman]

Padre,

yes, we can have opinions, I respect that, and of course I am passionate about this, because I think it is important. I was a CO for a number of years in TX, and taught for almost 20 in NY. I realize with some of these posts , for fun or whatever, ego maybe, but it doesn't matter,,, some people like to joke or push buttons, it really doesn't matter. I would get much more support and congratulations or thanks if I talked to the Humane Society or Audubon Society or some non-hunting organizations,(there are people in those that do hunt), but mostly I would be preaching to the choir. 

That you said you might want to try these bullets out,,,, that is wonderful, I believe you will be very happy with them. They were not developed for environmental reasons, they were developed(and have been improved), because they penetrate better, and are more accurate(usually). But you decide. I have never reloaded, but a few years ago, I gave a gentleman a few rounds to try. I think he has been on the forum, anyway, he said they shot as well as his best hand loads. Did he switch? I don't know, but he did try them. 

I can't ask for anymore than if people are interested(I don't try to force anyone to do anything), that they look objectively at the science, and try them out. If you like to shoot, really shoot, you probably won't be buying the cheap crap ammo anyway, the copper is about the same as premium lead ammo. 

Padre, please send me an email if you want, I was out in western NY a month ago, and no telling when I might be back out that way.([email protected]) 

If you try some out, for a 30-06, 5 - 1 gallon jugs will barely stop the copper at 100yds, 3 jugs for a cheap corelokt. But your grouping usually will be much better on targets.

[Bowguy 1]

This last post seemed less pushy of the agenda. How much lead do you think it takes to kill a bird? How long you figure. A guy at a shop near me put pellets in 2 ducks food for 8 years before they died. They ate lead every day. Would I do that? Course not but 8 years is a long time. I don't think fragments from a bullet can hurt.

Now since we have some "bullet experts" here. What exactly type load sprayed lead all over an animals body? How do you know the white spots weren't some kid shooting bird shot at a deer? Certain type heads like ballistic tips almost explode in a sense on impact. What type round? In NY any centerfire is legal, Id bet a 22-250 hit w fragmenting head might do this most slower expanding deer loads in my opinion won't.

I could be wrong but this is only opinion about the slower heads doing less splatter effect in an X-ray.

Again studies can be modified to get desired results. If that's not obvious than someone has a problem.

Now take into effect most hunters are fisherman too. How does the split shot get on the line? By biting it on, some guys keep extras in their mouth, some guys do that w maggots too but that's beside the point.

Ever see an old split shot bag? Lead residue all over even if not directly put into mouth Id bet some gets there. Any studies about lead levels in a hunters blood done to determine if guys who only fish have lower levels? I didn't think so. If not the study is incomplete

[DirtTime]

Here's something that hasn't been brought up in these 'discussions'. Crows, ravens, turkey buzzards/vultures and many more feed on the gut piles from deer left behind. How many of these bird carcases do people find laying around in the woods or the fields of the land they own, walk, or hunt? Some predators like the coyote might gobble them up, but, the feathers would be left behind. Pretty hard to miss a pile of feathers. Oh wait, I guess the wind carries those feathers away.

We all know the tale of wolves in sheeps clothing. This is a prime example.

 

In another thread from a different zealot, I mentioned cost. Not every hunter can afford non-lead ammo. I even posted facts on the price difference.

 

Like I already said, PETA is that way --------->.

[vlywaterman]

Bowguy,

in answer to some of your questions.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/short-summary.html

this explains results with different types of bullets, it was done on sheep, but they are pretty close to deer.

 

this one was 9 hunters shooting 30 deer, all with 7mm mag, same rounds.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330

 

how much shot to kill an eagle?

this study was done in 81, it varied from 10 to 156 # 4 shot, and the one that got 156 shot lived 125 days,,,, so it varies, but in the wild these birds would not have been able to hunt and probably all would have starved much sooner.

http://huntingwithnonlead.org/PDFs_Main/Bald%20eagle%20lead%20dosing%20study.pdf

 

a simple google search of lead and eagle poisoning will turn up a huge amount if info.

[ATbuckhunter]

Here's something that hasn't been brought up in these 'discussions'. Crows, ravens, turkey buzzards/vultures and many more feed on the gut piles from deer left behind. How many of these bird carcases do people find laying around in the woods or the fields of the land they own, walk, or hunt? Some predators like the coyote might gobble them up, but, the feathers would be left behind. Pretty hard to miss a pile of feathers. Oh wait, I guess the wind carries those feathers away.

We all know the tale of wolves in sheeps clothing. This is a prime example.

 

In another thread from a different zealot, I mentioned cost. Not every hunter can afford non-lead ammo. I even posted facts on the price difference.

 

Like I already said, PETA is that way --------->.

Crows and vultures can handle higher lead levels with no or little adverse effect on them. Eagles and hawks tend to have the lowest lead level tolerance. 

[vlywaterman]

Not every hunter can afford non-lead ammo. I even posted facts on the price difference.

 

Really?

give up your lattes a couple of days and you can afford an extra $10-$20/ box, how many deer do you shoot? and how many bullets do you need to shoot those,,,,plus a few rounds to sight in your rifle,,,,,, it really isn't that big of a deal.

[Doc]

Not every hunter can afford non-lead ammo. I even posted facts on the price difference.

 

Really?

give up your lattes a couple of days and you can afford an extra $10-$20/ box, how many deer do you shoot? and how many bullets do you need to shoot those,,,,plus a few rounds to sight in your rifle,,,,,, it really isn't that big of a deal.

Not every bullet is used on game. I do spend quite a few hours simply bench-rest shooting so yes, cost is an issue. I also know competition shooters whose hours of shooting make my shooting look very casual. I'm sure the cost of ammo is even more important to them. One would have to give up an awful lot of lattes to cover an extra $10-$20 a box. That is a "big deal."

[vlywaterman]

yes, and I can't shoot copper at targets if I'm just wanting to plink either, especially for 223 or pistol ammo. But I use cheap lead for fun, and the copper when I'm serious.

[The_Field_Ager]

, if the scientific consensus eventually determines that lead bullets are having an adverse affect on our health, I'll accept that

 

A consensus does not prove empirically proven causes, just to be clear. A lot of modern consensus's are often political in nature, based on shaky or maniuplated data. Man-made warming being the obvious example

Edited July 12, 2016 by Papist

[Bowguy 1]

Not every hunter can afford non-lead ammo. I even posted facts on the price difference.

Really?

give up your lattes a couple of days and you can afford an extra $10-$20/ box, how many deer do you shoot? and how many bullets do you need to shoot those,,,,plus a few rounds to sight in your rifle,,,,,, it really isn't that big of a deal.

This is assuming someone drank coffee, beer, etc. Perhaps had expendable money or only shot at deer occassionally. Again not correct assumptions for all. Some guys shoot all year long n you're proposing that they shoot lead at targets n then resight w copper to hunt? That's not how it works w accuracy freaks. They work up a load, whatever it is n shoot it. How bout you guys just win some accuracy competitions or a bunch of em n the rounds is superior there would sell themselves n this whole conversation wouldn't be happening

[Bowguy 1]

A consensus does not prove empirically proven causes, just to be clear. A lot of modern consensus's are often political in nature, based on shaky or maniuplated data. Man-made warming being the obvious example

Exactly my sentiment

[virgil]

Nonsense.  There is no such thing as an 'empirically proven cause'.  There is 'empirical evidence'- which is an observation or data.  Observations lead to theories.  Theories are tested using the 'scientific method'.  Data is collected.  A scientific consensus means that an overwhelming number of independent scientists have arrived at the same conclusions.

[The_Field_Ager]

There is no such thing as an 'empirically proven cause'.  There is 'empirical evidence'- which is an observation or data.

 

Lol. Same thing . Causal factors fall under the heading of data and evidence.

[virgil]

Oh please.  Then, why don't you define 'scientific consensus' for us?  Or, is there no such thing in the world of science denial?

[Doewhacker]

 

 

Really?

give up your lattes a couple of days and you can afford an extra $10-$20/ box, how many deer do you shoot? and how many bullets do you need to shoot those,,,,plus a few rounds to sight in your rifle,,,,,, it really isn't that big of a deal.

 

Rob smokes and drinks beer he doesn't sip lattes get it right!

 

I have never seen him post about shooting anything actually so I think a box of copper slugs could last him a life time.  

[Bowguy 1]

Nonsense. There is no such thing as an 'empirically proven cause'. There is 'empirical evidence'- which is an observation or data. Observations lead to theories. Theories are tested using the 'scientific method'. Data is collected. A scientific consensus means that an overwhelming number of independent scientists have arrived at the same conclusions.

Using big words doesn't make you right or even make facts of the "studies". I'll use the green house "studies" again as many scientists again disagree. I'm not saying I'm right since I'm not one who did the studies. Have you or are you just reading what someone else wrote?

Theories are only that n in life I'm sure you've seen them change so why are you so resistant to keep an open mind n simply say some studies suggest certain things?

Scientists, Drs, etc, they're only practicing a trade.

Now lots of grants are given out for certain studies n future grant money is slated only to those who get desired results.

Since you obviously are educated you must know this?

Edited July 12, 2016 by Bowguy 1

[DirtTime]

Rob smokes and drinks beer he doesn't sip lattes get it right!

 

I have never seen him post about shooting anything actually so I think a box of copper slugs could last him a life time.  

You would be wrong on that Doewhacker.

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/32964-finally-shot-the-mp/

 

I am not a big target shooting guy unless it's my M&P 15 22, yes due to cost effectiveness. The only rifle I own and have not shot yet is the latest, mainly due to moving and the wait time to get into a new range or club ( old range is over an hour away now ). I have also mentioned in other threads that my turkey loads are Rio Bismuth 3" #4 and patterned well from my middle of the road brand shotgun ( which I have not shot a slug through as I use a rifle for deer ).

If I had an acre or two of my own land ( as many on here do ) I would shoot more as it would just be going out the back door and walking a few hundred feet.

 

 

 

As for the latte thing vlywaterman, never had one in my life. I drink cheap beer, and usually make my own cigarettes, cost, maybe $30 a week. Some people spend that a few times a week eating out. I am not giving up the vices I have for theories and estimations. I stand by my own theory, let people be free to make the choice and stop degrading them for not doing what you want them to!! It's just that easy.