Leasing Ruins Conservation

[Padre86]

23 minutes ago, chefhunter86 said:

FYI my hunting buddy and I are both self taught neither of us came from a hunting family.... Yes MOST 18-35 year olds can afford land. But I worked my ass off to be able to afford mine.... Is it the idea piece, NO but it works for me right now. Not everyone has the same work ethic or the same opportunity in life. But we all live in a free country and with hard work and and a little luck we can all advance in life..... All this opening up private land to the woe is me hunter who can't afford It and who doesn't want to go find some public land really bothers me.... If that's what you want go move to a communist country, you can hunt all the no longer private land you want and wait in long lines for your food too


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You're being more than a bit unrealistic here.  No they can't.  And there are some very simple metrics to back that up.  I'm talking about all people 18-35, not just middle class America or people already living/working in the rural counties.  And even if everyone could afford to buy their own hunting lands, there wouldn't be enough available land to accommodate every person within that demographic, let alone every hunter in NY.

 

Kudos to you for setting a goal for yourself and working your butt off to accomplish it, but not everyone is that secure financially that they can buy, maintain and pay taxes for a whole separate piece of property set aside for hunting.  And preaching that any and all hunters wanting access need to man up and go buy their own land is a piss poor way to welcome and encourage prospective hunters.

 

As I've said before, the viability of hunting in the future will depend greatly on how we as hunters welcome, train and mentor the next generation.  The attitudes I've seen displayed here don't give me high hopes.

[Padre86]

30 minutes ago, growalot said:

Well If your in Rochester,than I know your full of shite..there is a ton of public hunting within a hour...much a half hour of Rochester. So don't whine of no access...you want the greener grass. There are guys on here and other states that drive  hours to Letchworth to hunt....that's just one area.

You need to get out and go walk those lands when hunting season starts instead of just looking at a map.

Yes there is some public land to hunt in western NY, but there isn't a lot of it.  All of the state lands, multiple use areas and national forests in western NY are teeming with hunters once the season starts....to the point where you're bumping into more hunters than you are game.  Much of the game definitely becomes wise in those areas and heads off to other pieces of land, usually private, where they face far less hunting pressure.  And you have to be extremely aware and careful of where you go...I can't even recall how many times I've walked down trails and right into the line-of-fire of other hunters who were still-hunting.

 

Is it possible to hunt public land in western NY?  Yes.  But it definitely isn't a great environment for newcomer, or even a veteran, to hunt in year-after-year.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Padre86

[Chef]

You're being more than a bit unrealistic here.  No they can't.  And there are some very simple metrics to back that up.  I'm talking about all people 18-35, not just middle class America or people already living/working in the rural counties.  And even if everyone could afford to buy their own hunting lands, there wouldn't be enough available land to accommodate every person within that demographic, let alone every hunter in NY.

 

Kudos to you for setting a goal for yourself and working your butt off to accomplish it, but not everyone is that secure financially that they can buy, maintain and pay taxes for a whole separate piece of property set aside for hunting.  And preaching that any and all hunters wanting access need to man up and go buy their own land is a piss poor way to welcome and encourage prospective hunters.

 

As I've said before, the viability of hunting in the future will depend greatly on how we as hunters welcome, train and mentor the next generation.  The attitudes I've seen displayed here don't give me high hopes.

Just so you know everyone can do it, I don't care weather your middle class or not, or already live in a rural area.... I'm from very close to NYC, and btw do not have a collage degree


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[growalot]

There  you go again with assumptions, I don't need to get a map out and I have been to these areas. Now lets look at this again:

Quote

Yes there is some public land to hunt in western NY, but there isn't a lot of it.  All of the state lands, multiple use areas and national forests in western NY are teeming with hunters once the season starts....to the point where you're bumping into more hunters than you are game.  Much of the game definitely becomes wise in those areas and heads off to other pieces of land, usually private, where they face far less hunting pressure.  And you have to be extremely aware and careful of where you go...I can't even recall how many times I've walked down trails and right into the line-of-fire of other hunters who were still-hunting.

Give me a moment ..lets see where did I put that..hhmmm, Oh there it is...... my trusty tiny violin...just so you know I'm playing it for you ....I'm on private land and have been nearly shot 3 times...listened to slugs whistle through the tree limbs in my woods...my husband literally had a slug whiz through his hair at camp and our daughter was nearly shot her first time hunting our place...boo whooo there's a lot of guys on public land...BTW my neighbor s brother shot and killed one of the guys they were hunting with next to my property. Here....I'm play you another tune.

[Core]

23 hours ago, Padre86 said:

That's great for you, but the key word I used was "most."  And I'll stand by what I said.  "Most" people of that age bracket can't afford to buy their own land for hunting.

 

I grew up in Rochester, NY and I certainly didn't come from a hunting family.  I got interested in hunting well after college, and with the exception of a little bit of help from 1 distant relative, I've been largely self-taught.  From the outside looking in, the biggest deterrent for new hunters, besides learning how to hunt, is finding a place to hunt.  If people on this thread want to pretend that isn't an issue and dismiss any dissenting opinions as selfish whining, so be it.  But they're hurting NY's hunting community in the long run. 

I really sympathize with people not wanting people to hunt their land and if I ever get some I have to admit I'll likely be the same way, for all the reasons mentioned.

That doesn't invalidate what you said; i agree with it. And it's a fact that access to land is a key problem for a lot of hunters. I have a similar background, too. But as part of my taking this up by myself (no family, extended or otherwise, hunt or ever have to my knowledge other than my wife's late grandfather who loved it and one of her uncles) I knew that I'd have to use public land, so that's what I've been doing. It is more of a hassle, but it can absolutely be done.

The spare money for land for most in their 30's is not realistic, though, unless with tons of support from the spouse and/or not too many kids or childcare. I've never had family childcare, for example, and over time each of my kids so far (none are yet teens) has cost me I figure at least $50k/piece.

[Doc]

What really brings all of this stuff home is when you have been around long enough in the same area to have experienced better times in terms of hunting access. When I was a kid, I could walk the ridges all day long and never see a posted sign. There was no such thing as begging for access. The land in our valley was in huge wooded parcels owned by farmers who actually welcomed hunters. They had no money, need, or time for buying and maintaining posted signs for keeping people out. Who ever thought that hunting access would ever be a problem.

Having been raised in those times makes the current situation of posted signs and leases and high fences even more traumatic to a hunter that has known times where that problem was simply unimaginable. Not all change is good.

[knehrke]

As with most issues, America is becoming more divided, with the haves and have-nots lining up on opposite sides. The gap just gets wider and wider. Those with the energy and means tie up the best land and bemoan trespassers., all the while contributing to the problem. Those without bemoan the hunting elite who ruin it for everyone else, all the while contributing to the problem. 

Yeah, it's a complicated issue. I see both sides. I own land, post it, and only let my close friends hunt with me. But I spent years canvasing for places to put a tree stand, too. There's good and bad on both sides. The only sure thing is that the problem won't go away. Hunting has become more and more about competition, for land, for resources, for deer (ie, food plots). It's every man for himself, which doesn't bode well for the future, since hunting has been saved to date from the antis mainly by the number of participants. Lack of access means less hunters, more people playing Pokemon Go.

Interesting times...

[growalot]

You people live in a state that has continually added MORE land to it's public recreation...which includes hunting...You also have a state that has more land in private conservation contracts..which,fact, in many instances  are huntable, if you go and do a little research. The "haves and haves nots" This entire thread explains exactly why this election is so screwed up! There are no "republicans " left...your all Democrats hiding under the republican name...

[growalot]

Quote

There was no such thing as begging for access. The land in our valley was in huge wooded parcels owned by farmers who actually welcomed hunters. They had no money, need, or time for buying and maintaining posted signs for keeping people out. Who ever thought that hunting access would ever be a problem.

Having been raised in those times makes the current situation of posted signs and leases and high fences even more traumatic to a hunter that has known times where that problem was simply unimaginable. Not all change is good.

Now ask your self,be honest in your answer, who  caused all this and ruined it for them selves.

[Padre86]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

You people live in a state that has continually added MORE land to it's public recreation...which includes hunting...You also have a state that has more land in private conservation contracts..which,fact, in many instances  are huntable, if you go and do a little research. The "haves and haves nots" This entire thread explains exactly why this election is so screwed up! There are no "republicans " left...your all Democrats hiding under the republican name...

[growalot]

Did you really like that quote or just couldn't figure out how to respond? Rhetorical question....

Edited September 6, 2016 by growalot

[Padre86]

Grow, why are you being so divisive?  You truly believe that anyone on this site who disagrees with you is a Democrat?

 

NY has added some new public land in recent years, but the overall amount of public land in western and central NY is very still very small in relation to the amount of private land, and come hunting season it is definitely very crowded in places like High Tor and Carlton Hill and Rattlesnake Hill.  Outside of the Adirondacks, there isn't a whole lot of room to accommodate all or even most of the hunters who don't own land themselves...and this is a shame, because there is more than enough deer for everyone to hunt in western and central NY.  The problem is that many people don't have a way to access them.  

 

Land access is a huge issue in this state.  Grow, you can disagree and rant all you want against that statement, but there are many hunters who will appreciate the issue...and despite your accusations, they're not all Democrats.

Edit: I couldn't add text to my previous post for some reason.  Mods, feel free to add this to that one.  And wow Grow, only took you a few minutes to respond; are you on post-alert 24/7?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Padre86
Edit

[BuckThornBooners]

Sounds like the "free lunchers" are not going to be happy until they get steak.

 

[growalot]

"Haves and have not's"...if that isn't Democratic thinking , then I do not know what is...Divisive? Why do you choose to call me that when I am merely giving some fact along with my opinion. I'm not being divisive, I'm showing an absolute zero personal tolerance for whiners that think their personal enjoyment of hunting falls on the shoulders of other people. If you can not get your head right with what you have available to you ,in terms of hunting and get the best enjoyment from it you can...then perhaps hunting really isn't for you...Now that would be a better thing for you to ponder than how landowners are ruining your fun.

[stoneam2006]

This is not about land owners ruining fun as you say...you are ruining conservation efforts...

Let me ask you this when was the last time someone hunted or trapped coon on your property...a high coon population has a high likely hood of contracting and spreading rabies...how about foxes...yotes...they need to be controlled to. Can't call yourself a conservationist when all your doing is thinking about selling your land...leasing and SOME private land owners are ruining conservation efforts.

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[jjb4900]

I don't own land for hunting, I'd rather spend my money on other things......quite honestly there are thousands of acres of public land available for me to hunt on, I've never had the need to knock on a door for a place to hunt..........with that being said, I have zero problem with anyone who owns their own land posting the sh*t out of it and keeping everyone else off of it, and I don't even care the reason, whether it be leasing, for themselves and family, an anti hunter, a tree hugger, whatever, it's none of my business. It's like me wanting to use someones brand new car because I can't afford one or choose not to buy one, it doesn't work like that in my book.....I don't have a swimming pool, but you do, can I bring the kids over whenever I want and use it??

[Jeremy K]

I've checked out many state land hunting areas during bow season and maybe have seen one or two cars parked at the road but never saw the people hunting.

[Padre86]

18 minutes ago, growalot said:

"Haves and have not's"...if that isn't Democratic thinking , then I do not know what is...Divisive? Why do you choose to call me that when I am merely giving some fact along with my opinion. I'm not being divisive, I'm showing an absolute zero personal tolerance for whiners that think their personal enjoyment of hunting falls on the shoulders of other people. If you can not get your head right with what you have available to you ,in terms of hunting and get the best enjoyment from it you can...then perhaps hunting really isn't for you...Now that would be a better thing for you to ponder than how landowners are ruining your fun.

You're hopeless Grow....if conservative traditions, including hunting, become marginalized in this state, you'll have your own stubborn self, and like-minded compatriots, to thank.

And for the nth time, I'm not advocating for forcing landowners to share their land with other hunters, and I don't think the OP was either.  You and a few others on this thread keep repeating phrases like "free-lunchers" and "whiners" and  "hunting on the shoulders of others."  I do support free-market and government initiatives to incentivize sharing of private land; if that makes me a "free-luncher" then you and I have absolutely nothing to agree on here.

 

Edit: also, I never used the phrase "have and have not's."

Edited September 6, 2016 by Padre86

[jjb4900]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

I've checked out many state land hunting areas during bow season and maybe have seen one or two cars parked at the road but never saw the people hunting.

I haven't ran into another bowhunter in my public land spot in years.

[stoneam2006]

Don't get me wrong I hunt mostly stateland and kill enough deer...it's about actually bettering the population of each species...If the state is trying to kill 900 deer in a certain WMU but stateland harvest is only 200 bc the deer run off once gun starts and people don't shoot them bc they don't think the numbers are high enough then we get into issues like we have now...it's all about population and disease control. Without it we could end up in a worse place quickly.

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[Padre86]

6 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

I haven't ran into another bowhunter in my public land spot in years.

I don't know where you hunt, but it's been crowded enough during the season at places like Carlton Hill and High Tor.  And after the first day of gun season, a lot of game do start to disperse from those public land parcels.  

Edited September 6, 2016 by Padre86

[stoneam2006]

I haven't ran into another bowhunter in my public land spot in years.

Bowhunting is a different animal on statelands...gun hunting tho some land you don't dare walk on

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[jjb4900]

3 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

Don't get me wrong I hunt mostly stateland and kill enough deer...it's about actually bettering the population of each species...If the state is trying to kill 900 deer in a certain WMU but stateland harvest is only 200 bc the deer run off once gun starts and people don't shoot them bc they don't think the numbers are high enough then we get into issues like we have now...it's all about population and disease control. Without it we could end up in a worse place quickly.

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I get the whole overpopulation, over browsing, disease thing, but it's private land...case closed. I think the State trying some type of incentive program for landowners to open their property to hunters is a great thing.....and it may work, but other then that it's a dead end road.

[Padre86]

12 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

I get the whole overpopulation, over browsing, disease thing, but it's private land...case closed. I think the State trying some type of incentive program for landowners to open their property to hunters is a great thing.....and it may work, but other then that it's a dead end road.

Hmmm, sounds very similar to something I've said previously.  

There are some fairly common-sense, low-impact measures the state could adopt to work through this issue.  And I suspect most, if not all, hunters would be perfectly okay with those measures.  The accusations, made by some here, of Democrat-inspired attempts to subvert the freedoms of private landowners really doesn't add much to the conversation. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Padre86

[growalot]

Stone ...are you just daft? I hunt, both son and husband have their trappers licenses...I just don't discuss  what I personally take because I refuse to touch either raccoons or fox .. so no need to rile the resident furers here. Mr B has a thing about liking Fox...so no need to rile him either...See assumptions, you people assume land owners aren't shooting deer ..Don't control the small game...Why because it makes it easier to cry about how you(general term) having no access...that's right, there is a crossing sign at all private land and it's standing room only the second season starts.

All this over population due to no access...Well dearies its suburbs and housing developments.. Those things encroaching into rural "hunting" areas because..... all you guys that think you can't afford land  have a need to buy those cute little homes on 3-5 acre lots stacked up next to each other... don't blame real land owners

Edited September 6, 2016 by growalot