Too many hunting accidents this year

[growalot]

It should never be allowed..." Oh you failed...here are the correct answers ,take your certificate and good luck"....

I went through .mine and archery then both my kids and their archery.   All of them were the same way...That and no weapon handling nor competency required. A joke back then,worse now. IMO.

[Doc]

12 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

You would be surprised, I've been one to empty a clip and have had more than a couple hanging with 8-10 holes in them. That being said most every one was killed on the first shot but if they are moving I'm still shooting.

 

 

 

I know that me and rapid-fire running shots are pretty much useless. So the likelihood of me making any kind of "Hail-Mary" running shot through the woods really is a complete worthless attempt. 

I am completely converted to scopes on all my deer guns, and I am now used to looking through a scope and accepting the greatly reduced field of vision and understanding that as I swing that little circle of view through the woods, it is unlikely that I am actually doing a very good job of checking out the area behind or around the fleeing deer that I am flinging lead at. I would never want to be swinging that little sight-picture through the woods and at the last minute seeing a sudden flash of an orange suit at the same time that the trigger finally goes off.

I don't know, that is just a personal limit that I put on myself. I put everything into that first steadied shot and assume that I have delivered a lethal shot. Unless the deer stops for another carefully executed shot, I am afraid that my tracking skills will have to finish off the job. Others may have better developed skills at running shots, but for me, "a man's got to know his limitations". And for me the limitation is that a running shot is a wasted chunk of lead unnecessarily flying through the woods.

[Buckmaster7600]

I know that me and rapid-fire running shots are pretty much useless. So the likelihood of me making any kind of "Hail-Mary" running shot through the woods really is a complete worthless attempt. 
I am completely converted to scopes on all my deer guns, and I am now used to looking through a scope and accepting the greatly reduced field of vision and understanding that as I swing that little circle of view through the woods, it is unlikely that I am actually doing a very good job of checking out the area behind or around the fleeing deer that I am flinging lead at. I would never want to be swinging that little sight-picture through the woods and at the last minute seeing a sudden flash of an orange suit at the same time that the trigger finally goes off.
I don't know, that is just a personal limit that I put on myself. I put everything into that first steadied shot and assume that I have delivered a lethal shot. Unless the deer stops for another carefully executed shot, I am afraid that my tracking skills will have to finish off the job. Others may have better developed skills at running shots, but for me, "a man's got to know his limitations". And for me the limitation is that a running shot is a wasted chunk of lead unnecessarily flying through the woods.

Well said doc, I agree with you on knowing ones limitations. The difference is when I do the majority of my hunting I have absolutely no worries of another hunter being anywhere near me.


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[Doc]

38 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Well said doc, I agree with you on knowing ones limitations. The difference is when I do the majority of my hunting I have absolutely no worries of another hunter being anywhere near me.

 

 

 

Total isolation is a great condition of hunting. It is few that can arrange absolute isolation from other hunters (Actually Damn Few). There are many who think because they are on private posted land that they have the land all to themselves. I have enough tightly posted land of my own so that occasionally I get those feelings myself. But tracks in the snow and occasional random confrontations have taught me that for my hunting lands that is merely an illusion. Those blaze orange images that can unexpectedly pop into the moving scope image are still a distinct possibility.

But I do accept that there are places and conditions where other hunters are unlikely. Those are fortunate hunting conditions indeed. However my hunting habits are developed for the unexpected, and they are habits that are so ground-in that they apply regardless of the differences in hunter populations.

 

[chas0218]

15 hours ago, left field said:

Putting aside that many people are simply idiots and you can't legislate against stupid, should there be a more stringent test for new hunters with target practice and perhaps an apprentice period for hunting?

I say this as someone who has just gone through the Hunter's Ed process and found it to be sorely lacking.

As it stands, you can get the voucher online and take the test in person with little to no knowledge imparted. A quick trip to a gunshop and maybe 20 minutes spent at a range, and you can hit a pie plate at 100 yards. The next day you're sitting in a tree as a legal and certified "hunter".

When my father took his hunting course many years ago I think it was Sodus Rod and Gun or Lyons Rod and Gunit was mandatory to shoot a .22LR open sights at 15 yards and out of 10 shots 5 must be within a 3" circle this was shooting off a bench/rest. You didn't get your certificate until you did the shooting test. There was also a lot more hands on firearm demonstration as well. I don't think it would really be that hard to incorporate some real life scenarios and handling of a firearm. Maybe the DEC can donate or buy some of the dummy pistols and long guns.

When I took my course about 18 years ago they had a dummy pistol with a pressure sensitive laser they passed around it was crazy how many people when handling it lasered people around them . The instructor didn't mention why he handed it out then after asked how many people were hit with the laser. Almost everyone's hand went in the air he said if that were a real pistol we all could have been accidentally shot. I can still remember the expressions on peoples faces. A little bit of a scare tactic but I think it would open a lot of peoples eyes as to how clumsy some can be. I didn't need to pass a shooting test and it was held at the Lyons R&G I understand if places aren't available to shoot but I think most if not all R&G clubs would allow those looking to get their certificate to come and shoot for an afternoon without a membership but a signed waiver.

Edited December 8, 2016 by chas0218

[left field]

I did mine in the Bronx as I live in the city, but had I known that I could have spent some time with a rifle at a range I would have driven hours.

Fortunately, I wised up for the bow ed and went to a club where we spent time in the field tracking and shooting.  

[growalot]

We took mine at a local gun club and the archery in the next town over at an archery club...mine was the only one where we handed a shot gun and it was purely voluntarily,  just 3 or 4 of us shot as I recall.

[Core]

My archery course had you required to prove you could hit a target, but there was no standard; people who were missing using the supplied compound bow with their fingers were not penalized, so really it was completely pointless. I know lots of courses here require no proof of ability with a firearm.

[shawnhu]

I did mine in the Bronx as I live in the city, but had I known that I could have spent some time with a rifle at a range I would have driven hours.
Fortunately, I wised up for the bow ed and went to a club where we spent time in the field tracking and shooting.  

Went to LI and slept in the car for the two day course. I could have taken it 15 minutes from home, but traveled 1.5 hrs instead. Was a great experience.


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[Buckmaster7600]

I haven't read all the reports but to me most of these haven't been accidents. You don't shoot at movement and say you thought it was a deer. A negligent discharge is accident and negligent discharge that shoots someone a few feet from you is not.

All of the reports I have read this year I haven't read about 1 accident everyone has been stupidity. Regulating stupidity is very difficult, often educating is often difficult as well because common sense is tough to teach.

To me a hunting accident would be a ricochet, bullet traveling through a deer and hitting someone or missing a deer and hitting someone etc those are accidents.


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[Uptown Redneck]

I wonder if liability concerns plays a role in not mandating shooting/gun handling proficiency.  

[Two Track]

My daughter's class had the optional shooting after class.  Of course she yes when they said you can go out and shoot a few targets while they were grading.  She is petite and small for her age. She watched a guy shoot the 12 gauge magnum and the kick back from it.  Then she was not sure about shooting.  Told her start with the 22 and then try the 410.  They will not kick like that.  She took her time and never missed - a great confidence boost for her with 20-25 people watching (instructors and students combined).

Another nice thing about a class with a shooting option, you get the feel of using different firearms (brands, type [single/semi-auto/pump], stocks, sights) to see if one of them is something you want to buy without paying for any range and cleaning fees, and having someone who is experienced with that particular one for any pointers on it.

45 minute drive one-way for a few week-nights plus a Saturday.  Those were longs days for me - work all day, drive home just to pick her up, and come back home at 9:30/9:45 PM.  The smile on her face hitting those targets was great.

Now, if she would get up early on the weekend to get out there.

[Buckmaster7600]

A lot of you are complaining about the courses but have any of you done anything to try to help/fix them?

If anyone is interested this is the number.
1-888-HUNT-ED2


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[Two Track]

I do all I can to not have a hunting accident or an accident while hunting (defined as personal injury, non-firearm related -  falls, branches to the face,  twist a ankle/knee, shredding your pants in the thorns, etc).

If am out with anyone, we review where we are going to be, directions that can/can't shoot, etc to try to keep everyone safe.  If cross another hunter on public land, I let them know where I am headed to avoid any shooting issues, or be told that someone is already that way so I can pick another area.

[shawnhu]

A lot of you are complaining about the courses but have any of you done anything to try to help/fix them?

If anyone is interested this is the number.
1-888-HUNT-ED2


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Instructors are not paid to teach/hold these courses. They are volunteers. If you don't like how your local one teaches, go find another. There's no limit on how many times you can attend a class.


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[Steve D]

14 hours ago, Doc said:

I don't know, that is just a personal limit that I put on myself. I put everything into that first steadied shot and assume that I have delivered a lethal shot. Unless the deer stops for another carefully executed shot, I am afraid that my tracking skills will have to finish off the job. Others may have better developed skills at running shots, but for me, "a man's got to know his limitations". And for me the limitation is that a running shot is a wasted chunk of lead unnecessarily flying through the woods.

Amen...make the first one count and you shouldn't need another one. I always try to avoid running shots.

[chas0218]

Instructors are not paid to teach/hold these courses. They are volunteers. If you don't like how your local one teaches, go find another. There's no limit on how many times you can attend a class.

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I think most chose not to get paid similar to the boating course instructors. I know the boating courses charge up to $60/person granted some venues are expensive but I looked up the cost of the venue when my wife was required to take it to drive a jet ski and it was $30/day and with 34 applicants I think he made out pretty good at $60 an applicant.

I have thought about teaching the courses myself for a little extra money during the summer when there are only a handful offered in the whole state.

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[shawnhu]

I think most chose not to get paid similar to the boating course instructors. I know the boating courses charge up to $60/person granted some venues are expensive but I looked up the cost of the venue when my wife was required to take it to drive a jet ski and it was $30/day and with 34 applicants I think he made out pretty good at $60 an applicant.
I have thought about teaching the courses myself for a little extra money during the summer when there are only a handful offered in the whole state.
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http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/9189.html

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/7860.html

Here you'll find that there is no mention of a salary or payment for teaching a sportsman class.

Unless otherwise noted, I don't think there exists a paid sportsman instructor in NYS from DEC.


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[Doc]

Back in the olden days, I took my hunter safety training the Naples Central bus garage. And we were required to fire some .22 caliber rifles. One other thing that I recall about that course was a slide show that actually showed a deceased hunter hanging by his foot from a fence after having shot himself crossing the fence without abiding by safe gun handling practices. There were several other gruesome pics of hunting accidents. I have always said that these explicit pictures left a lifelong imprint of safety on me that was so much more powerful than some abstract mention of hunting accidents.

Now just think a minute about how things have changed over the years. Loaded firearms, being possessed and actually fired on school grounds. Today, it is likely that you would not even be allowed to hang up a poster announcing a gun safety course somewhere else (especially if there is a picture of a gun on the poster).

That was a mere 60 years ago.

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

Back in the olden days, I took my hunter safety training the Naples Central bus garage. And we were required to fire some .22 caliber rifles. One other thing that I recall about that course was a slide show that actually showed a deceased hunter hanging by his foot from a fence after having shot himself crossing the fence without abiding by safe gun handling practices. There were several other gruesome pics of hunting accidents. I have always said that these explicit pictures left a lifelong imprint of safety on me that was so much more powerful than some abstract mention of hunting accidents.

Now just think a minute about how things have changed over the years. Loaded firearms, being possessed and actually fired on school grounds. Today, it is likely that you would not even be allowed to hang up a poster announcing a gun safety course somewhere else (especially if there is a picture of a gun on the poster).

That was a mere 60 years ago.

What I find interesting is that you mention those photos and remember exactly what they corresponded to. I think that if the point is driven home in a way like that people will better remember these courses then there will be less accidents. I think a lot of people just brush off what the instructors tell them because there is nothing to make you think "Wow I guess that is really important". I remember more about my hunter safety course than my archery course. The archery course was pretty much a joke sat there listened to a guy talk for 2 days take the test then get my certificate. 

[Uptown Redneck]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

One other thing that I recall about that course was a slide show that actually showed a deceased hunter hanging by his foot from a fence after having shot himself crossing the fence without abiding by safe gun handling practices. There were several other gruesome pics of hunting accidents. I have always said that these explicit pictures left a lifelong imprint of safety on me that was so much more powerful than some abstract mention of hunting accidents.

 

While I agree with adding visuals to a presentation to enhance its message I don't think that in today's world, with all that is easily seen online by today's youths as well as young adults, that such pictures today would have the same "shock" effort as they did when you took your safety class.  

[Doc]

I don't know.... today we worry so much about the trauma of such pictures on the tender psyche of children that we tend to shelter them right to death. Sometimes a simple but graphic picture adds to the reality that carrying a weapon offers the potential for some real nasty consequences when done incorrectly.

It is true that the realism of news events and video games and movies has likely de-sensitized kids these days. But still that image of that guy hanging by his foot on the fence, with the blood and meat flashed up there while the topic of the correct way to cross fences really, was a very powerful reinforcement of the subject.

You can bore a kid into an unconscious stare with the drone of a long lecture on gun safety, but flash an image like that up and you instantly have their attention back. That old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words is never truer than in that situation.

BUT.... You know what would happen if that was done today. There would be all kinds of parents picketing and jamming the school office about how their precious child was traumatized by such vile images.

[left field]

Anyone remember Scared Straight in 1978?

Kept me out of prison.

[Doc]

Anybody have any idea what the actual tally is for this year so far?

[jperch]

My hunter safety course was taken at my high school and was taught by one of my teachers. That was 46 years ago, in Rochester.  We didn't fire any guns but he brought in his single shot 10 gauge and a 22 for us to look at.  I remember some graphic pictures.  I don't recall the hunter hanging from a fence but I do remember a picture of a deceased male with a hole in his forehead.  It made an impression on me.  Thank you Mr. Sinowski.  We also went rabbit hunting with him after passing the course.  He used that 10 gauge on the bunnies!