Bullet perfomance

[shawnhu]

There's plenty of research out there to support that. A good lead bullet will retain maybe 80 percent of its mass.


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But is mass retention equivalent to effectiveness?


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[ATbuckhunter]

But is mass retention equivalent to effectiveness?


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It's equivalent to penetration. Which means that because of the weight retention of copper, you can go to a lighter weight and still have better penetration. And we all want to have good penetration as well as cavitation which the Barnes bullets are known to provide.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

I've shot quite a few animals with the Sierra Game king 30 cals in 165 gr. I have always gone through and haven't had that issue of separation. 

[Curmudgeon]

1 hour ago, shawnhu said:

 

Do you have scientific facts to prove this theory of yours, or is this just another stab at lead?


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There is a link at the bottom of every one of my posts. There you will find lots of science on toxicity, performance, whatever you want. You just need to take the time to read it. The retention of weight and its effect on penetration has been common knowledge for years. A quick search turned up the info below. All you need to do is look.

From http://blog.finandfield.com/hunting/non-lead-ammo/

Copper bullets have been considered premium ammunition in the center-fire rifle caliber’s since the mid 80s, long before lead became an issue. Copper bullets were initially sought after as a hunting round replacement for lead to achieve better penetration and less fragmentation. Several studies show that modern copper bullets have higher velocity, mushroom well at low and high velocity, penetrate deeply, and don’t loose mass. So even though the grain weight of copper ammo is lower it has just as much penetration and wound expansion due to the copper ammunition having little to zero fragmentation while lead will lose as much as 50% of its mass. Lead can also foul your barrel and require more cleaning.

 

[BigVal]

My lightfield sabot had a pass through with big holes on both sides from 80 this year 

[shawnhu]

There is a link at the bottom of every one of my posts. There you will find lots of science on toxicity, performance, whatever you want. You just need to take the time to read it. The retention of weight and its effect on penetration has been common knowledge for years. A quick search turned up the info below. All you need to do is look.
From http://blog.finandfield.com/hunting/non-lead-ammo/
Copper bullets have been considered premium ammunition in the center-fire rifle caliber’s since the mid 80s, long before lead became an issue. Copper bullets were initially sought after as a hunting round replacement for lead to achieve better penetration and less fragmentation. Several studies show that modern copper bullets have higher velocity, mushroom well at low and high velocity, penetrate deeply, and don’t loose mass. So even though the grain weight of copper ammo is lower it has just as much penetration and wound expansion due to the copper ammunition having little to zero fragmentation while lead will lose as much as 50% of its mass. Lead can also foul your barrel and require more cleaning.
 

So let me get this straight, we went from 30% mass loss to 20%, and now we're at 50% loss! Sure sounds like copper is a sure win! But wait, is shedding mass all that bad?

Copper bullets has better expansion? Is that across all velocities?

Lead bullets foul the barrel? So copper doesn't? How about copper jacketed bullets? Clean barrels then?

Does copper have better penetration, or FMJ?


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[Lawdwaz]

21 hours ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I don't see a pic. Although im curious to see it. 

OK ATbuckhunter, this is for you. 

I've used the Barnes 80gr TTSX in my .243 for 3-4 years now.  The first deer I killed with it was also from PA, a nice adult doe.  I shot her at (IIRC) 235 yards, head on.  There were only a few minutes of shooting time left in the day and that differs from NYS in that they let you hunt till 30 minutes PAST sunset.  The sky was overcast and that didn't help.  I was sure of my target though and set the crosshairs on her chest and took the shot.  She disappeared at the shot......by the time I got down to her it was dark.  I field dressed her on the spot.

After she was hung, I looked her over and couldn't find a exit hole.  Being a head on shot and a dead right there kill I had no complaint.  I butchered her as usual and figured the bullet was stuck in the gut pile left in the bush.

Late that winter I was cutting up a roast for a goulash meal and came upon THIS:

So I guess this time the Barnes TTSX FAILED since it didn't exit.  100% weight retention.........it's in the basement along with a handful of other recovered bullets from ML'r, slug gun and rifles.  Might even be able to find a flattened BB from my Crossman 760 if I look hard enough............

Apologies for re-posting the same tired old pics and story for those that have seen it here.

[ATbuckhunter]

8 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

OK ATbuckhunter, this is for you. 

I've used the Barnes 80gr TTSX in my .243 for 3-4 years now.  The first deer I killed with it was also from PA, a nice adult doe.  I shot her at (IIRC) 235 yards, head on.  There were only a few minutes of shooting time left in the day and that differs from NYS in that they let you hunt till 30 minutes PAST sunset.  The sky was overcast and that didn't help.  I was sure of my target though and set the crosshairs on her chest and took the shot.  She disappeared at the shot......by the time I got down to her it was dark.  I field dressed her on the spot.

After she was hung, I looked her over and couldn't find a exit hole.  Being a head on shot and a dead right there kill I had no complaint.  I butchered her as usual and figured the bullet was stuck in the gut pile left in the bush.

Late that winter I was cutting up a roast for a goulash meal and came upon THIS:

So I guess this time the Barnes TTSX FAILED since it didn't exit.  100% weight retention.........it's in the basement along with a handful of other recovered bullets from ML'r, slug gun and rifles.  Might even be able to find a flattened BB from my Crossman 760 if I look hard enough............

Apologies for re-posting the same tired old pics and story for those that have seen it here.

Thats perfect expansion! Id love to find one, one day.

[Pygmy]

The only Barnes I ever recovered  came from a similar situation, except it entered from the REAR end of a caribou and was recovered just under the skin on the brisket.

Don't ask me why I shot a caribou in the ass..I don't want to talk about it.....

The fact remains that the 250 grain 9.3 MM bullet traversed a 300-400 pound caribou from stern to stem and retained 100%  of its weight...And the caribou didn't go anywhere either..

[Curmudgeon]

14 hours ago, shawnhu said:

So let me get this straight, we went from 30% mass loss to 20%, and now we're at 50% loss! Sure sounds like copper is a sure win! But wait, is shedding mass all that bad?

Copper bullets has better expansion? Is that across all velocities?

Lead bullets foul the barrel? So copper doesn't? How about copper jacketed bullets? Clean barrels then?

Does copper have better penetration, or FMJ?


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I am not going to explain why different people use different numbers, or defend another's writing. That was just something that came up immediately in a google search. The point is, the relationship between penetration and mass retention has been common knowledge for decades.

If it was important, I could look up the mass loss on a lot of bullets shot into water. 30% is average, The bullet that started this thread probably lost 70-80% of its mass. The OP could weigh it.

In other discussions on this forum, people have said that at over 300 yards copper does not expand as well due to the slowing of the bullet. Since I have never shot a deer further than 80 yards, I have no experience with this. However, Larry's photos show an 80 grain bullet that traveled 235 yards, and the penetration and expansion he got.  

Most people I know who used copper bullets have no fouling problems. A very few do and it seems that there is something specific about the combination of the barrel and bullet. It is not common.

13 hours ago, Pygmy said:

The only Barnes I ever recovered  came from a similar situation, except it entered from the REAR end of a caribou and was recovered just under the skin on the brisket.

Don't ask me why I shot a caribou in the ass..I don't want to talk about it.....

The fact remains that the 250 grain 9.3 MM bullet traversed a 300-400 pound caribou from stern to stem and retained 100%  of its weight...And the caribou didn't go anywhere either..

My Dad shot a barnes 7-mm 08 - 129 grains I think - into the front of a big doe at about 30 yards. It passed through her neck, part of her spine, a ham, and came to a stop inside the skin on the back of a leg. It was a beautiful bullet. I gave it to him after I skinned his deer. If I had known he was going to toss it, I would have held onto it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

OK boys.... sold me.  In the I will be workign up loads for my hunting rifles using the TTSX bullets. Gonna have to start stocking up.   Quick question for anyone here. I am using a reduced recoil load for my 308 Win pistol. I have not shot through a Chrono. based on drop characteristics I would expect 30-30 ballistics or a tad less. I am using a 130 gr bullet. how do these things perform at slower speeds?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Pygmy]

I think if you contact  Barnes they can tell you minimum velocity for reliable upset of their different products.

My loads use relatively light for caliber bullets (  120 and 140 grain in 7MM, 250 grain in 9.3 MM)  pushed as fast as I can safely push them while maintaining good accuracy.  I have never used them in reduced loads.

My 7mm08  and .280 Rem loads are around 3000 FPS MV  with the 120s and 140s respectively, and the 9.3  load is around 2500 with the 250 grain.

[shawnhu]

I think if you contact  Barnes they can tell you minimum velocity for reliable upset of their different products.
My loads use relatively light for caliber bullets (  120 and 140 grain in 7MM, 250 grain in 9.3 MM)  pushed as fast as I can safely push them while maintaining good accuracy.  I have never used them in reduced loads.
My 7mm08  and .280 Rem loads are around 3000 FPS MV  with the 120s and 140s respectively, and the 9.3  load is around 2500 with the 250 grain.

How's the copper fouling with them zipping out at those speeds Dan?


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[Pygmy]

6 minutes ago, shawnhu said:

 

How's the copper fouling with them zipping out at those speeds Dan?


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I don't think it is any worse than with regular jacketed bullets, Shawn.. Since Barnes  started  making the banded bullets, thus reducing the amount of bullet bearing surface that contacts the rifling, excessive fouling has been reduced, at least in my rifles.  I'm not  a real clean freak with my rifles...I run a few patches with Sweet's 7.62 through the bore every 20-30 rounds and I have not seen any noticeable decrease in accuracy due to fouling.

However, I,m talking acceptable ( to me) hunting accuracy, not benchrest accuracy..

[shawnhu]

I don't think it is any worse than with regular jacketed bullets, Shawn.. Since Barnes  started  making the banded bullets, thus reducing the amount of bullet bearing surface that contacts the rifling, excessive fouling has been reduced, at least in my rifles.  I'm not  a real clean freak with my rifles...I run a few patches with Sweet's 7.62 through the bore every 20-30 rounds and I have not seen any noticeable decrease in accuracy due to fouling.
However, I,m talking acceptable ( to me) hunting accuracy, not benchrest accuracy..

That's what I expected from copper bullets, no less fouling than jacketed. I hear sweets 7.62 is a nice strong solvent, very good for copper.


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[Pygmy]

13 minutes ago, shawnhu said:

 

That's what I expected from copper bullets, no less fouling than jacketed. I hear sweets 7.62 is a nice strong solvent, very good for copper.


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I have had good luck with the Sweet's...It is pretty aggressive, and dissolves the copper fairly quickly..Just don't leave it in the bore for extended periods of time and make sure you clean it out after using it, to avoid the possibility of etching the bore..

[shawnhu]

I have had good luck with the Sweet's...It is pretty aggressive, and dissolves the copper fairly quickly..Just don't leave it in the bore for extended periods of time and make sure you clean it out after using it, to avoid the possibility of etching the bore..

Yup, I've read the same.


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[chas0218]

On 11/30/2016 at 8:11 PM, Enigma said:

Thanks for the replies. It was a Sierra Pro Hunter bullet. Not really what I'd call a "premium" bullet I guess like a NP or Barnes etc.. Don't recall how long I've had the box but it's been awhile and I'm at the end of them. Still have 20 rounds or so left.

Have shot several deer with them at various velocities, mild to hot. This bullet has killed deer for me multiple times from 25 yards to 225. I've hit them though both shoulders (devastating) and through the lungs (pass throughs) and the results have always been the same - dead deer. I'd say 1 in 3 deer I've shot with this round hasn't had an exit however.

Just wanted to hear other's perspective on the core separation that's all. I guess my observation is that copper and lead flying at that speed can do funny things when it hits flesh and bone and a perfect mushroom well, sometimes we get them and sometimes we don't!

Thanks again and good hunting . . .

 

 

Crap I just bought a box of these for the .270 I hope i have better performance not that it made much of a difference in your case.

[airedale]

 The fact of the matter any of the so called premium bullets be they bonded core, partitions or solid metal for Deer hunting are like using premium gas  when regular is recommended. All of today's modern traditional jacketed bullets will kill deer as cleanly as any of the premium types and can be ever bit as accurate in addition to being much more cost effective. I have only found one rifle bullet ever that I killed a deer with and that was the jacket from the 243 Speer hot core 243 bullet that I mentioned in the beginning of this thread and that deer did not go far. Every other Deer I shot and it was more than a few resulted in complete pass throughs be the bullets premium or traditional. Deer are just not that big! (At least mine are not LOL)

Premium bullet construction was developed because of penetration problems and large bones when hunting large game like Elk,  Moose or big Bears. I have no problem using them for Deer as I have used them at times myself and they worked great but no better than traditionals when it comes to stopping power

As far as fouling most hunters don't shoot enough solid copper bullets to foul a barrel, they are pretty expensive to plink with. They get their gun sighted in with a few rounds and that is it so they will be all good.  My experience when firing  large numbers of copper bullets my barrels  got fouled and fouled bad and it is not easy to get out. The one thing I do not want to be doing is scrubbing a good accurate barrel and using harsh solvents excessively.

Al

Edited December 2, 2016 by airedale

[Culvercreek hunt club]

13 minutes ago, airedale said:

 My experience when firing  large numbers of copper bullets my barrels  got fouled and fouled bad and it is not easy to get out. 

Al

Al, quick question that I never understood. why would the solid coppers foul any faster than a traditional copper jacketed round? is it the actual length of the bullet so there is increased copper contact?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Culvercreek hunt club

[airedale]

Bullet jackets from most manufacturers are not copper, they are an alloy made from copper some call gilding metal that resist fouling  and that is why modern jacketed bullets do not foul nearly as much. There are some bullets made with pure copper jackets. I have several boxes of the old Barnes 458 cal lead core bullets for a 458 win mag I had and a 45-70 Gov, they are made with pure copper jackets and they will foul the barrels if a lot of them are fired at a time. 

Al

Edited December 2, 2016 by airedale

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Thanks Al

[shawnhu]

Dan, Al, appreciate the real world feedback from folks that actually shoot, and not some online article that was written by someone who probably shoots less than a box a year.


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[chas0218]

2 hours ago, airedale said:

Bullet jackets from most manufacturers are not copper, they are an alloy made from copper some call gilding metal that resist fouling  and that is why modern jacketed bullets do not foul nearly as much. I have several boxes of the old Barnes 458 cal lead core bullets for a 458 win mag I had and a 45-70 Gov, they are made with pure copper jackets and they will foul the barrels if a lot of them are fired at a time. 

Al

Explains why those barnes coppers fouled the crap out of my rifle a few years ago. I never knew bonded bullets didn't use 100% copper jackets.

Edited December 2, 2016 by chas0218

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, chas0218 said:

Explains why those barnes coppers fouled the crap out of my rifle a few years ago. I never knew bonded bullets didn't use 100% jackets.

Me either