Crossbow/gun and whitetail population

[greg54]

Full inclusion for crossbows and separate season for crossguns

[Doc]

6 hours ago, wolc123 said:

If we could hear just one good reason against full inclusion that did not involve selfish elitism, or see any evidence that the majority of NY's deer hunters (or even bow-hunters) does not support it,  then you anti's might have a fighting chance.  As it stands right now, you seem to have just about had it.   Doc's decision to side-step my pointed questions is a pretty good indication of that.      

Here they are one more time Doc (or any other anti who is brave enough to take them on):

Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member?    How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows?  Have you ever missed any clean?  If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease?  Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand?   Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?     

    

In case you turn the selfish thing back on me as you have done repeatedly:

If and when full-inclusion happens:  

1.) I will welcome you and others to use a compound, recurve, or longbow during any open deer season.   What weapon you choose is none of my business, as long as it is legal and you develop proficiency with it prior to use on deer.

2.) If a gun, or ML hunter push to get into archery season I will fight it, because the noise will backfire causing the deer to go nocturnal sooner.  They might not know that so my fight is really for their own good.   I will politely suggest that they take the archery course (I do feel that should be required for crossbows and vertical bows), and purchase one or the other if they want to partake in OUR "special" quite time.        

First of all, thank you for so generously welcoming me into the season that for years has been established exclusively for bows. That's damn nice of you. Secondly, it sounds like you are already eager to exclude gun hunters of all sorts which now puts you neck-deep in hypocrisy and selfishness.  I guess you don't want all those gunners shooting YOUR deer. Now maybe you understand how stupid you sound repeating your goofy sounding selfish and elitism mantra. Your own arguments aren't even supported by yourself ..... lol.

From what I have seen here all you can do is repeat yourself without ever reading or addressing any responses. That to me is not discussion, but rather propagandizing. So it really looks like there is no point in trying to have a discussion with you since you have no intent of doing so. I have recognized your attempts at hijacking the topic because you weren't having a whole lot of luck with the way it was going, and I refuse to allow you to do that. You have now been shown to be a hypocrite which pretty much voids every scrap of your credibility.

I am willing to continue the debate with anyone else that is serious about listening to other opinions, but as near as I can determine, you are not even reading my responses. So why bother?

 

[stubby68]

10 hours ago, reeltime said:

simple,  they shoot the deer it runs out of the field or back into the woods, then they drive away and come back later drop off a person to track and retrieve under cover of darkness and either take the deer then or come back the next day to retrieve their "prize".   Bows are used as well,  I never once said a particular weapon choice person, I said the crossbow is fast becoming the poachers weapon of choice, whether they are gun hunters, crossbow hunters, or bow hunters makes no difference as they are all classified the same POACHERS when wild game is killed outside the lines of the law.

gunshots at night attract a lot of attention, sure poachers still use guns, much greater chance of getting caught using a loud gun and then having to jump out grab an ungutted deer and get it to and into the vehicle before someone shows up. 

 

            You don't think a flashlight in the woods or field in the middle of the night would draw attention. Especially on posted property. Easier to drop the deer where it stands. Drive away. Then come back an hour later grab deer and go. No tracking no flashlight. The sound of the shot is most times not even enjoy heard sense poachers wouldn't be doing this in view of a house being seen or heard is low. Have you never talked with a known poacher or an old timer who tells stories of how the use to do it. A gun shot really does not attract much attention at night when people are in side there house and probably sleeping. Saying the crossbow causes more poaching is really grasping at straws. Any excuse to make they look bad.

          Now if you are talking about hunting on posted land then that is different. Let's see gun makes noise land owner hears the shot on his land goes and checks poacher cought. Bow or crossbow make no noise user is in camo. Hard to see no noise to hear. Owner does not know they are there poacher goes free. 

[stubby68]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

First of all, thank you for so generously welcoming me into the season that for years has been established exclusively for bows. That's damn nice of you. Secondly, it sounds like you are already eager to exclude gun hunters of all sorts which now puts you neck-deep in hypocrisy and selfishness.  I guess you don't want all those gunners shooting YOUR deer. Now maybe you understand how stupid you sound repeating your goofy sounding selfish and elitism mantra. Your own arguments aren't even supported by yourself ..... lol.

From what I have seen here all you can do is repeat yourself without ever reading or addressing any responses. That to me is not discussion, but rather propagandizing. So it really looks like there is no point in trying to have a discussion with you since you have no intent of doing so. I have recognized your attempts at hijacking the topic because you weren't having a whole lot of luck with the way it was going, and I refuse to allow you to do that. You have now been shown to be a hypocrite which pretty much voids every scrap of your credibility.

I am willing to continue the debate with anyone else that is serious about listening to other opinions, but as near as I can determine, you are not even reading my responses. So why bother?

 

    How is wanting another type of bow into bow season and not wanting guns being a hypocrite? Now if he wanted muzzle loaders but not shotguns or riffle then he would be a hypocrite. A crossbow uses a string for energy and throws anot stick with a point on it same as a bow. It kills by cutting and causing the animal to bleed out. Same as a bow. No one fought against riffles being brought into gun season and they have a clear advantage over shotguns.

         You have said giving crossbows full inclusion so people who can't shoot a bow or don't have the time to practice and be proficient withone is the same as making sure everyone gets to play or get a trophy. Isn't  that the same thing that is being done with a special bow season. Make sure the people who do not want to hunt in the cold or when there are more hunters have a time to have there reward. Make in sure bow hunters have the warm weather to hunt in and when more deer are seen and more easily  patterned is like making sure they get to play .

 

 

 

 

[nodeerhere]

They already have the best 2 wks of the season which is bull crap! What more do u people want! How much easier do u guys want to make it to kill deer! I mean let's use a little skill! It drives me nuts u guys just don't get how bad that weapon is going to ruin bow season!! 

[stubby68]

10 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

They already have the best 2 wks of the season which is bull crap! What more do u people want! How much easier do u guys want to make it to kill deer! I mean let's use a little skill! It drives me nuts u guys just don't get how bad that weapon is going to ruin bow season!! 

It hasn't ruined it in other states where crossbows are used. So you admit bow hunting is easy and say crossbows will make it easier. You are also made that someone else is hunting during the rut. You want to keep the easier warmer time of hunting for yourself. 

     By they way I do not use a bow or crossbow and have no desire to. I just do not see a reason to keep it out of bow season. It uses a string and a sharp stick just like a bow. It kills by cutting. Sounds like a bow.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 12/24/2016 at 9:44 AM, nodeerhere said:

A cross gun is a gun with a bow like aperatius attached to it! U know u shoulder it like a gun, u aim it like a gun, u take the safety off like a gun, u squeeze the trigger like a gun!!! And u cock it. Not draw it like a bow. Meaning u don't have to draw it and hold it until u release. I mean u might be able to hold it for a min if ur tough enough. That implement u guys want to put in bow season sure sounds like a gun to me. So that is a cross gun!

Let's get down the to brass tacks. If no one is saying you MUST use a crossbow, what is your real issue? you can still hunt as you enjoy, No?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

18 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

They already have the best 2 wks of the season which is bull crap! What more do u people want! How much easier do u guys want to make it to kill deer! I mean let's use a little skill! It drives me nuts u guys just don't get how bad that weapon is going to ruin bow season!! 

Ruin it?  How? Has it ruined it for other states like Ohio? My hunting partner actually carries one. We hunted the last two weeks of the season together. Funny thing is the deer didn't run out of the county just becasue what he had in his hands. Was a very good couple weeks for deer movement too. I'll have to let him know the reason I didn't get the two bucks I was targeting was becasue he "ruined" my hunt. 

[grampy]

15 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

They already have the best 2 wks of the season which is bull crap! What more do u people want! How much easier do u guys want to make it to kill deer! I mean let's use a little skill! It drives me nuts u guys just don't get how bad that weapon is going to ruin bow season!! 

Now you are questioning the skill level of anyone who does not hunt exactly like you? I'm confident my, and many others, skill level, is at the very least as much as yours! No matter what hunting implement I'm using, bow, gun or crossbow. Or whatever part of the season I'm hunting! Public or private land. But I will never question another hunters abilities or ethics, because they hunt differently than I do. And certainly, if I have never tried what they do!  You just continue to beat a dead horse. I find your over the top responses quite comical.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

31 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

They already have the best 2 wks of the season which is bull crap! What more do u people want! How much easier do u guys want to make it to kill deer! I mean let's use a little skill! It drives me nuts u guys just don't get how bad that weapon is going to ruin bow season!! 

Yeah this is kinda over the top. I agree they have they best 2 weeks in the bow season right smack in the hot season for Whitetails and if it stayed that way I would still be happy to use it but it still should be included in the whole season and then let the hunter decide what to use.  If they already have the best last 2 weeks what is the hurt to add the first 2 weeks?           Any smart hunter is still going to get a crossbow and hunt those best 2 weeks.   Most hunt private land so if you did not want a weapon in that land then make the call?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 hours ago, reeltime said:

simple,  they shoot the deer it runs out of the field or back into the woods, then they drive away and come back later drop off a person to track and retrieve under cover of darkness and either take the deer then or come back the next day to retrieve their "prize".   Bows are used as well,  I never once said a particular weapon choice person, I said the crossbow is fast becoming the poachers weapon of choice, whether they are gun hunters, crossbow hunters, or bow hunters makes no difference as they are all classified the same POACHERS when wild game is killed outside the lines of the law.

gunshots at night attract a lot of attention, sure poachers still use guns, much greater chance of getting caught using a loud gun and then having to jump out grab an ungutted deer and get it to and into the vehicle before someone shows up. 

 

I don't see how legalization would effect the illegal use during poaching. Do you think that because it isn't a legal implement it would stop their using it at night to poach? Or does just owning one of these evil weapons push a person over the line and make them a poacher? 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

10 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Yeah this is kinda over the top. I agree they have they best 2 weeks in the bow season right smack in the hot season for Whitetails and if it stayed that way I would still be happy to use it but it still should be included in the whole season and then let the hunter decide what to use.  If they already have the best last 2 weeks what is the hurt to add the first 2 weeks?           Any smart hunter is still going to get a crossbow and hunt those best 2 weeks.   Most hunt private land so if you did not want a weapon in that land then make the call?

Now don't you go injecting any logic in this thread...lol

[nodeerhere]

U guys keep bringing up Ohio! U guys have no idea! Ohio is a 1 buck state! Come on! U can not plug crossbow into ny without changing some rules! If it happens and nothing else changes we will always be the laughing stock of whitetail hunting! 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

18 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

U guys keep bringing up Ohio! U guys have no idea! Ohio is a 1 buck state! Come on! U can not plug crossbow into ny without changing some rules! If it happens and nothing else changes we will always be the laughing stock of whitetail hunting! 

Why change things now?  We already own that with our 3 month hunting season and no baiting and no Urine and no certin guns and on and on.  We have owned that label for years!!!

[stubby68]

17 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

U guys keep bringing up Ohio! U guys have no idea! Ohio is a 1 buck state! Come on! U can not plug crossbow into ny without changing some rules! If it happens and nothing else changes we will always be the laughing stock of whitetail hunting! 

As long as they do not make a separate tag for crossbow you would still only be able to take 3 bucks. Too many. They wouldn't be adding a buck tag just a weapon. I believe we should go to one buck rule but saying we need it bease of crossbows is wrong. We should just have it. The one buck rule in Ohio is not the reason crossbows did not ruin  bow season there. The rule wasn't imposed on just crossbows it is on all weapons.

[nodeerhere]

All I'm saying is if ur going to put more gun hunters in the woods during bow season. Which u would be because the crossbow is more like a gun. And that's why people are crying to have it all bow season. Then the number of deer killed will go up. This includes 1.5 ur old bucks. So a 1 buck rule would make people a bit  more picky! I know I know u guts are going to say it's only hurting the people who follow the rules!! Blah blah blah... 

[upstate]

17 hours ago, gjs4 said:

 

Surely you are right- death to the skilled and rise of the lame and lazy. Get em boys !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

This may be one of the dumbest things I've read here, and this place is loaded with stupid. 

15 hours ago, Bowshotmuzzleloader said:

Ive done deer drives with a compound bow. It would be no different and unsuccessful although it was mainly to entertain ourselves but it is possible..

To anyone who hasnt hunted with a crossbow accuracy goes way down without a rest or offhand as they are front heavy, they are and can be difficult to maneuver in a tree stand situation with the horizontal limbs,, they are not miraculous killing machines that people think they are..

They offer distinct advantages and disadvantages in certain situations..

Look, the bow guys say they're just like a gun, so they are. 

 

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread. 

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

On 12/23/2016 at 9:02 PM, nodeerhere said:

What will or deer herds and buck growth be if they allow this weapon fully during bow?what will happen to the compound,recurve, and long bow. 

Im not sure the deer heards would be any different ? One would have to assume there will be many more hunters in the woods if this is allowed, I personally don't think the numbers will increase that much to make an impact maybe im wrong,, if a bow hunter that is allowed to harvest a buck does so with a crossbow whats the difference or impact with what weapon he chooses to do it with...

I will still choose to use both.

If the DEC deems the take to high then they can adjust the regulations...

 

[NFA-ADK]

How many more pages of this do you all want to argue?   

Nothing will change the other persons point of view.  Personally I have heard the results of this weapon being used by poachers already.  To me this weapon is nothing like a bow.  You can not rest a bow on anything when shooting, it remains loaded at all times as the sting is cocked and new advances in this weapon make it much closer to a gun than any bow on the market that most of us use.  The velocity and weight of the bolt is nothing like a bow as the KE is vastly different.  The only similarity is the fact that both use a sting and broadhead, nothing else is similar.

Will it affect me, probably not, I primarily hunt LI with bow and doubt that weapon will be allowed after the issues of poaching exposed to the DEC last year.  A few houses where hit with bolts last year on LI!  Will I be against its full inclusion, yes.  Should they make allowances for hunters who can not shot a regular bow sure, no objections to that. 

For me to say the crossbow is the same as a compound or traditional bow that literally requires excessive practice and usually months of training to become proficient will never happen because I know the X-bow can be at the same level of precision with one shooting session.  Most traditional shooters are limited to 25 yards and 30 is a real stretch.  Show me a traditional bow that someone can shoot past 50 yards as accurately as a X-bow and I will say they are the same, and it has to be a new shooter!   Hell the experienced shooters can't even do that!  But yes they are the same, LOL!!!

PS:  I do not need any replies, I am done with this thread as it is not going to change anyone's opinion regardless of what is said.  Time to move on and glad I am not following this anymore.

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

15 hours ago, nodeerhere said:

Of course u have.

Glass half full attitudes usaully never complete things, anything is possible if you try...

 

[nodeerhere]

And he's holding a bottle of urine at the end?

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

23 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

And he's holding a bottle of urine at the end?

How did I guess you would have something negative to say...

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, nodeerhere said:

All I'm saying is if ur going to put more gun hunters in the woods during bow season. Which u would be because the crossbow is more like a gun. And that's why people are crying to have it all bow season. Then the number of deer killed will go up. This includes 1.5 ur old bucks. So a 1 buck rule would make people a bit  more picky! I know I know u guts are going to say it's only hurting the people who follow the rules!! Blah blah blah... 

I'd love to see a one buck rule. and All Antlerless take to be by the lottery system. 

[Doc]

3 hours ago, stubby68 said:

    How is wanting another type of bow into bow season and not wanting guns being a hypocrite? Now if he wanted muzzle loaders but not shotguns or riffle then he would be a hypocrite. A crossbow uses a string for energy and throws anot stick with a point on it same as a bow. It kills by cutting and causing the animal to bleed out. Same as a bow. No one fought against riffles being brought into gun season and they have a clear advantage over shotguns.

         You have said giving crossbows full inclusion so people who can't shoot a bow or don't have the time to practice and be proficient withone is the same as making sure everyone gets to play or get a trophy. Isn't  that the same thing that is being done with a special bow season. Make sure the people who do not want to hunt in the cold or when there are more hunters have a time to have there reward. Make in sure bow hunters have the warm weather to hunt in and when more deer are seen and more easily  patterned is like making sure they get to play .

The point is that they are calling bowhunters "selfish" who feel that crossbows should be excluded from bow seasons and then admit that they too will exclude others from that season now that they have elbowed their way into the bowseason. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then I haven't a shot at ever explaining it.

[stubby68]

24 minutes ago, Doc said:

1. The point is that they are calling bowhunters "selfish" who feel that crossbows should be excluded from bow seasons and then admit that they too will exclude others from that season now that they have elbowed their way into the bowseason. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then I haven't a shot at ever explaining it.

They want exclude a weapon that in no way is a bow. They want a weapon that is like a bow included. In other words they want another type of bow but not a gun. The hypocrisy would be if they wanted to include one type of gun but not another. They want to use a different type of the same weapon all ready being used. Just like putting riffles into shotgun season. Different type of the same weapon used there too. Shotgun, riffle. Both guns both fire a projectile using gun powder as an energy. Both kill with shock and damage. Bow, crossbow. Both fire a projectile using stored energy in a string. Both kill by cutting and hemorrhaging. Where is the hypocrisy in wanting to  use a bow during bow season.