SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[growalot]

People around here have been holding off for years..not everyone but most..looking for tine length and mass..me I don't save racks other than a bucket ..Well hanging from basement rafters...I have had old bucks I want good meat...I wait  and I pass for doe but they have become a bigger trophy than buck for me the last three years. I prefer taste, have no problem with a good sized young 8pt. We have more than enough.

[Doc]

5 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

the context that it's said is important. so isn't the use of the word "critical".  the deer herd as a whole and even in some areas isn't broken.  DEC has published data that says yearling/young buck harvest is continuously going down.  also that we have a 1.7:1 doe to buck ratio. it should be a big red flag if a biologist said buck to doe ratio is fine regardless of age structure. so in the context of their projection for the state as a whole it doesn't seem to be needed. however, no biologist should say that young bucks living isn't important from a biological perspective.  DEC big game staff has gotten called out by national biologists for loosely using the words "no biological need".  this isn't me simply pondering text on the internet.  i've talked to Hurst the big game leader about it and seen DEC staff get called out.  Hell, he himself sees benefits of antler restrictions.  He voluntarily continues to hunt property that has had voluntary antler restrictions for well over a decade.  notice it's all carefully worded as to not say there's no advantage or biological need at all.  also the biologists don't see a specific benefit with the AR program given their outlook where things are going. yet DEC openly admits there otherwise are multiple management benefit to the AR program, such as "A majority of hunters in the pilot AR units prefer that the program continue (report they did on June 2011, after they'd been in place)".  not posting this to really plead the case for this legislation, so much as provide food for thought.  DEC's outlook and stance as a group is based on state averages. some areas do quite well with the stats to show it, while others not nearly as much.  going back to the one size fits all approach doesn't work.  it'd be ignorant to ignore ARs would help some WMU's a great deal, despite for others it probably wouldn't do a darn thing.  hunter emotions are the only thing driving this to be a state wide thing. there's always a boarder to complain about no matter how far away.

I agree that the statement does not say that there are no peripheral benefits at all, but My interpretation of that Hurst statement is that he feels that all the fuss and feuding about the importance of AR is simply not worth the frantic demands and significance that some attach to it, and compared to other challenges that the DEC faces, it should not be very high on their priorities. In other words the whole issue of AR is merely a tempest in a teapot. And I agree with that. There are losses and negatives to constantly strapping restrictions on hunting as the knee-jerk reaction to every issue that comes up. And with the diminishing hunter numbers and participation, there had better be some very real and measured and studied reasons that are not riddled with a whole lot of unintended consequences. Especially when adding severe restrictions for some very questionable purposes.

As far as Hurst being "called out" on that statement, I have not personally read any of that and as far as I know, he may actually have more support than critics from his associates. At any rate, I feel he is much more qualified and credible than any of us are on the subject, so I tend to take his words as being an opinion by a credible biological expert. And that is good enough for me.

[growalot]

You talk age structure and then in the next post say the intent is getting them to 21/2 . I am not seeing the significant value in getting a deer to 2 1/2 to kill it,and many times before the rut...I know I have seen 21/2 and 3 1/2  fighting as well as two 21/2 fighting to watch a 1 1/2 old 6  point run a doe not far and breed her. Now if I were to bet...That probably happens more than one thinks. Your not seeing any potential to rack nor body size at 21//2.Your also setting the stage for a high buck mortality due to fighting ...ie Dr. Woods every year he shows mature buck dead due to brain abscesses...how many die from puncture wounds? People assume a dead deer is due to arrow or gun shot. How many in areas of mature deer aren't? A very sizable number of deer here last year were half racked in Oct. Now grant I see that as a survivor for next year..How many will shoot a half rack?

Edited March 3, 2017 by growalot

[Culvercreek hunt club]

23 minutes ago, growalot said:

You talk age structure and then in the next post say the intent is getting them to 21/2 . I am not seeing the significant value in getting a deer to 2 1/2 to kill it,and many times before the rut...I know I have seen 21/2 and 3 1/2  fighting as well as two 21/2 fighting to watch a 1 1/2 old 6  point run a doe not far and breed her. Now if I were to bet...That probably happens more than one thinks. Your not seeing any potential to rack nor body size at 21//2.Your also setting the stage for a high buck mortality due to fighting ...ie Dr. Woods every year he shows mature buck dead due to brain abscesses...how many die from puncture wounds? People assume a dead deer is due to arrow or gun shot. How many in areas of mature deer aren't? A very sizable number of deer here last year were half racked in Oct. Now grant I see that as a survivor for next year..How many will shoot a half rack?

The biggest plus of getting them to 2-1/2 is that they are a much smarter animal than a 1-1/2 and more likely to make it further. The thought being if they make 2-5 a higher percentage are likely to make it to 3.5. And I can see and agree with that. 

[Buckmaster7600]

You talk age structure and then in the next post say the intent is getting them to 21/2 . I am not seeing the significant value in getting a deer to 2 1/2 to kill it,and many times before the rut...I know I have seen 21/2 and 3 1/2  fighting as well as two 21/2 fighting to watch a 1 1/2 old 6  point run a doe not far and breed her. Now if I were to bet...That probably happens more than one thinks. Your not seeing any potential to rack nor body size at 21//2.Your also setting the stage for a high buck mortality due to fighting ...ie Dr. Woods every year he shows mature buck dead due to brain abscesses...how many die from puncture wounds? People assume a dead deer is due to arrow or gun shot. How many in areas of mature deer aren't? A very sizable number of deer here last year were half racked in Oct. Now grant I see that as a survivor for next year..How many will shoot a half rack?

The intent isn't getting them to 2 1/2 the intent is to get them to maturity, there isn't a way to regulate "god I hate that word" not to shoot a 100" 2 1/2yr old 8. That being said giving most bucks a chance to make it through their first hunting season gives them a chance to make it to maturity.

I am always asked if I think all the fish that I release will make it and I don't have a clue but I know they have a 100% better chance at survival in the lake than they do in my cooler.

Once again I hate AR's I want everyone to shoot what ever they legally want and I'll do the same. I just don't agree with your arguments against them.

Shoot what makes you happy that's what hunting is all about.

I have and will again if given the opportunity shoot a half rack buck. I have said on here many times before I couldn't care less about racks I like shooting heavy deer. 200lb is always my goal, don't care if they are a spike or a 16pt I just want the scale over 200lb. I have yet to see an immature NY deer weigh 200lbs


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

22 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 don't care if they are a spike or a 16pt I just want the scale over 200lb. I have yet to see an immature NY deer weigh 200lbs


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I will say if those two deer are standing side by side I will be shooting the 16 pointer...lol

[Buckmaster7600]

I will say if those two deer are standing side by side I will be shooting the 16 pointer...lol

As would I, I guess I can't say I don't care but it's certainly not my priority.


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[growalot]

I said it last year and I'll say it now.. A nice sized doe will be my biggest trophy this year....I had just one doe give me a shot and I only did that because she was limping so bad. Give me a good doe early and I'll wait. I'll hold out for an slightly bigger buck unit I have to buy my cross bow tag(ML) then I won't be as picky. 30 dollars is 30 dollars..

BTW..I see nothing wrong with someone shooting a half rack...I  just didn't think many would...I preferring to see them on cam the next season,to see what they developed, funky or normal.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

Seeing these were from my cams, I enlarged each and had other pics. of them as well. They all had brow tines. I chose these particular angles to not only show the racks but the heads and bodies. Also that second pic...that buck has both brow tines and you can see the one is just barely over that 1" limit on length.

Although those may be fair game many hunters would never raise the weapon on these deer to bur the tag!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

I agree that the statement does not say that there are no peripheral benefits at all, but My interpretation of that Hurst statement is that he feels that all the fuss and feuding about the importance of AR is simply not worth the frantic demands and significance that some attach to it, and compared to other challenges that the DEC faces, it should not be very high on their priorities. In other words the whole issue of AR is merely a tempest in a teapot. And I agree with that. There are losses and negatives to constantly strapping restrictions on hunting as the knee-jerk reaction to every issue that comes up. And with the diminishing hunter numbers and participation, there had better be some very real and measured and studied reasons that are not riddled with a whole lot of unintended consequences. Especially when adding severe restrictions for some very questionable purposes.

As far as Hurst being "called out" on that statement, I have not personally read any of that and as far as I know, he may actually have more support than critics from his associates. At any rate, I feel he is much more qualified and credible than any of us are on the subject, so I tend to take his words as being an opinion by a credible biological expert. And that is good enough for me.

Yeah he is the same biological expert that says we need to stop using deer urine in Ny state.  Even though there has never ever been prions found in any deer urine in over 50 Years?  I would not put all your eggs in that basket..lol

[growalot]

FSW...There you go...you just made the case against AR's. Many hunters would never raise the gun on those deer...So no need for mandatory  protection.

[gjs4]

Most every season is based on culture and not deer herd needs/health/balance. The DEC, especially the Hurst in Big Game, computes populations from algorithms and a very limited data set we should hope to be true. They have not idea what the actual population size is and manage more for negative impacts to human interactions via forest growth and car collisions. Think of all the license dollars taken in each year for deer hunting and what is done in return?


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

On 2/28/2017 at 5:44 PM, growalot said:

1 hour ago, growalot said:

FSW...There you go...you just made the case against AR's. Many hunters would never raise the gun on those deer...So no need for mandatory  protection.

This would leave no doubts.  Myself I like Ar on the lands I hunt. All our properties are already in Ar but I really hope the park goes back in. Few mores years and new minds in the DEC and they will finally realize that the big bucks they want are a product of short seasons and no guns in any part of the Rut 

[Five Seasons]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 2:38 PM, growalot said:

There ya go I have older spikes here as well...Now will a spike always be a spike.  In most cases of course not.. but when  they are,or a 4 and 6 remain so ,how is that beneficial to the herd. Let's not quibble over this,there has been enough guys on here that have shot actual  "mature" buck with such racks and had them aged.

With any rule or regulation in life you will always find exceptions. If we focus so much on a small percentage of outliers we will never make any progress. Case and point the small handful of people affected by the travel ban.

There will be outliers, but by and large the point rule captures most age classes throughout the state pretty accurately.

[dbHunterNY]

what doesn't make sense is with AR top gets killed when the bottom should

That gets into trophy management not herd management. There's a trickle effect into older age classes when it comes to protection but those cases are limited for a number of reasons.

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[dbHunterNY]

I agree that the statement does not say that there are no peripheral benefits at all, but My interpretation of that Hurst statement is that he feels that all the fuss and feuding about the importance of AR is simply not worth the frantic demands and significance that some attach to it, and compared to other challenges that the DEC faces, it should not be very high on their priorities. In other words the whole issue of AR is merely a tempest in a teapot. And I agree with that. There are losses and negatives to constantly strapping restrictions on hunting as the knee-jerk reaction to every issue that comes up. And with the diminishing hunter numbers and participation, there had better be some very real and measured and studied reasons that are not riddled with a whole lot of unintended consequences. Especially when adding severe restrictions for some very questionable purposes.
As far as Hurst being "called out" on that statement, I have not personally read any of that and as far as I know, he may actually have more support than critics from his associates. At any rate, I feel he is much more qualified and credible than any of us are on the subject, so I tend to take his words as being an opinion by a credible biological expert. And that is good enough for me.

Hunter satisfaction and participation isn't a question. Study after study has shown typically you get 2/3 are in favor of manditory (legislation or regulatory) antler restrictions when those yes votes aren't necessarily willing to put up with fuss and effort to do it voluntarily on any consistent basis. It wont ever reach higher than a super majority either because people in general are hard to agree that much on anything. DECs own study of the pilot AR areas concluded that most wanted it to stay. It's not questionable intent if it's to promote just sufficient yearling buck protection as well as meet hunter demands.

I wouldn't say the restrictions are severe. DEC wouldn't have considered them in the plan that was ready to go and got FOILed from them and then used to make this legislation. It's far from knee jerk too. AR's have been talked about for well over a decade here in NY. Higher up people in DEC with an agenda against ARs that retired and this legislation are reasons its becoming more of a hot topic. Unfortunately everything can't come from DEC published sources or a NY Outdoor Newspaper. Including data from DEC showing a clearer picture in a smaller area that's not buried in data that is the whole state broad brushed prognosis. I wouldn't have responded to your post with his quote if I had never talked to the guy. I'm just giving all the info I can for people to reach informed conclusions. Today's society seems to have an affliction for movie quotes versus reading the novel the movie was based on.

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[dbHunterNY]

I said it last year and I'll say it now.. A nice sized doe will be my biggest trophy this year....I had just one doe give me a shot and I only did that because she was limping so bad. Give me a good doe early and I'll wait. I'll hold out for an slightly bigger buck unit I have to buy my cross bow tag(ML) then I won't be as picky. 30 dollars is 30 dollars..
BTW..I see nothing wrong with someone shooting a half rack...I  just didn't think many would...I preferring to see them on cam the next season,to see what they developed, funky or normal.

If that big 6 turns into something freaky with "trash", abnormal points, or whatever you should share cam pictures. It'd be cool wity character and a treat to see.

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[dbHunterNY]

Although those may be fair game many hunters would never raise the weapon on these deer to bur the tag!

If they would shoot or pass it before ARs they'll shoot it or pass it the same within the guidelines of the AR. I agree though. Fair game doesn't always mean dead.

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[dbHunterNY]

FSW...There you go...you just made the case against AR's. Many hunters would never raise the gun on those deer...So no need for mandatory  protection.

By the same token you just implied that you believe hunters throughout NY have the same mindset as FSW and his group. Haha. Mike you have a new admirer. Grows now team FSW! Never would've thought.

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[BizCT]

Why can't NY just ban deer hunting for 2017 and 2018. Then in 2019, charge triple the price for licenses and a ton of giant bucks will be killed.

[Rack Attack]

Quote

Why can't NY just ban deer hunting for 2017 and 2018. Then in 2019, charge triple the price for licenses and a ton of giant bucks will be killed.

I would be in favor of a 2 year moratorium on buck take, allowing just antlerless.  That would keep population in check while at the same time create many more buck opportunities when the buck season was reopened in 2019...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

29 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

 

By the same token you just implied that you believe hunters throughout NY have the same mindset as FSW and his group. Haha. Mike you have a new admirer. Grows now team FSW! Never would've thought.

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Lol. She would have to keep that trigger finger folded much more to be on this team but she is right to a point. Many are now waiting to take a bigger deer but those same ones will drop the first 4 point they see in the late season. One has to make the full comitment and be ready to eat their tag. 

[growalot]

No I was partially quoting what HE said... to point out that if most wouldn't raise the gun on such deer, as in the pics I posted of live deer on our place...there shouldn't be a need for AR's. I didn't imply hunters across NYS have his mind set...BTW it's been many a year since I've shot a 4 pt...no matter how much they seem to follow me around during the season.

 Hey I obviously have shown I like seeing big mature buck..I have shown many a pic of them...I just don't have a need to shoot them. I do not have mounts done...perhaps if I get a crazy big one I might...but being cheap probably not..just one more thing to clean...I wish I had all the money some of you have sitting on your walls collecting dust...A nice picture and a mid priced frame gives me all the enjoyment I need. Plus extra cash in my pocket to play with. Just different mind sets...I do not begrudge those that have the desire to take that course of action. In that same note no one should begrudge me mine, or those that feel as I do.

Edited March 7, 2017 by growalot

[Death From Above]

While it may not be overly relevant, I thought I'd provide some observations from living in another state that went to AR several years back.  I haven’t read through much of this thread, nor have I read much on this site in the past about this topic.  No science here, just an observation.   Maybe someone might find it interesting, while someone else might see it as a biased viewpoint.  It may have nothing to do with the course of this thread.

But first I should admit that I am biased.  I love ARs after seeing what a difference it made first hand, but I wanted to provide my observations of how others viewed it during and after its implementation.   Secondly, I have a hard time believing that this state would actually put AR in place, even by some sort of legislative action outside the DEC.  Lastly, I respect others view on this topic, even if I disagree. 

I lived in Pennsylvania for more than 15 years, the first (5) or so where without ARs, and the rest were after they were added into the state game laws.  Pennsylvanians pretty much ran Gary Alt out of the state for his part in implementing ARs, and maybe even more for HR (herd reduction).  There were some VERY upset people when it was implemented.  It seemed to me that it was 50/50, if not more in favor of not adding the ARs.  As a recent college grad at that point I really had no position on the matter.  I have since moved back to NY (11 years now), but still go to PA every year to hunt with friends at "deer camp" for the opener.  It is funny to me that I almost never hear anyone complain about them any longer when I am down there.  Even the guys who were so dead set against it - and some will argue that not much has changed - those hunters seem to be content now waiting for a "legal buck". 

So, I am assuming that this either means that they have simply accepted it and moved on, or many adversaries of the policy have not endured the adverse effects they were concerned about.  After watching PA go through it first hand, and all the concern about hunters dropping out and dead deer "mistakes" lying everywhere, it is JUST MY OPINION that Pennsylvania hunting is still going strong.   I think that many would admit that their success rate is about the same, and that they do see more bucks.  They just can't shoot a lot of the bucks they see.  While many may not care about the antler size of the bucks they shoot, they are still shooting bucks.  One friend of mine says the only benefit he sees is that he likes the few extra pounds of meat that goes in the freezer when he shoots a potentially older buck now. 

I am certain that if I tried I could find PA hunters still unhappy about the fact they cannot legally shoot spikes or forks as adult hunters.  But I'd be interested in seeing a legitimate poll in Pennsylvania to see what % would like to go back to the days without them.  I find it interesting that the majority of hunters that I know were against them previously, would prefer to keep them in place now.  I also realize that there is an advantage in growing an older class structure in a state that allows just one buck per hunter, but that is a different topic I guess.

Because I don't have an interest in shooting bucks that aren't (3) years or older, that makes me a "trophy" hunter in some people's eyes and many don't like that.  Add the fact that I prefer to bow hunt through the gun season here in northern NY I cannot complain that I don't shoot as many bucks in NY as I wish I would.  Having hunted in states like Ohio, Illinois and Kansas it isn’t hard to see quite a difference in the quality of hunting when comparing those states to NY.  Most people might equate that “quality” I mention to just the opportunity to shoot deer with bigger antlers.  While that is probably the reason that I started going out of state to hunt, it isn’t what I like most about hunting those states. 

In NY I watch year-old bucks chase does all the time, in fact that is the age class I see chasing more than any others.  In Kansas, for instance, it seems like that age class doesn’t dare chase does like they do here.  They know better.  The quality of the hunting I am referring to is more in the experience and excitement of watching older bucks searching for does, coming to calls, and fighting over breeding rights.  I think it can be difficult to see the same behavior and reactions here in many parts of NY, with the exception of year-old bucks.  I think that body size and age brings attitude and excitement to the deer hunting woods.  There is a big difference (again in my opinion) in watching older deer navigate the rut, and I think it enhances the excitement while sitting on stand.   From what I have seen, competition from older bucks makes the rutting action much intense, even just one state away in PA.  I now have friends who go with me every year to hunt in PA, I don’t think I am alone in appreciating what AR has done for PA hunting opportunities if you enjoy seeing more bucks and more rutting behavior.

If you see lots of older bucks on a regular basis where you hunt in NY then congrats, you have it much better than from what I have seen in much of this state.  If all of my trail cameras are correct there simply aren’t a lot of older bucks in my neck of the woods, and competition over does isn’t difficult for them.  I feel it plays a lot into the reason I just don’t see them as often as I’d wish.  You can tell me I am not a good hunter, and that I am not using the correct weapon to maximize my success, I get it.  But I believe from hunting in other places that more rack bucks = more bucks viewed and more competition to make them visible.  Many hunters equate more deer seen with more exciting hunts.  My experience, ALONG with what I have seen/heard as the opinion of others, is that antler restrictions will improve more of the hunting experience ASIDE from larger antlered bucks.

To summarize...

If AR are never put in place in NY, hunting will go on as it is, and many like myself will continue to make trips out of state to chase older deer and potentially witness a different rut intensity with what may be an older herd.

IF AR is put in place in NY, it is my hope that those opposed will give it a chance and just might find things will turn out just as it was before, or maybe a bit more exciting due to more deer/bucks viewed per hunt.  This hope/suggestion is once again based on what I have seen/heard from fellow hunters who lived through this very discussion in PA.

Wow, that was a long post. 

[growalot]

But we'll stated,even though I believe in choice.