SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[phade]

12 minutes ago, Belo said:

I don't think we're syncing up here. I'm not bitching. book bucks are taken from both properties every year. I'm generally happy. What I'm trying to impress upon you is that 98% of hunters don't put the leg work in that you do, or don't have the time/money or means to. And you're probably better off for that or you might not have any properties to hunt unless you held the deed.

We all agree that access is the issue most hunters face. It's not impossible to get land. It's also not simple. Heck, I could have booted a guy off a farm he had been hunting for years after I married into the family and the grandpa said I could. Not cool of course so I didn't. I'm simply saying that it is highly unlikely to find land at NY that isn't already hunted, is free or wont take some effort to get into.

 

It's the same old circle. Those who can afford to or outwork, do. Those who cannot or will not, don't.

ARs involved or not, that won't change. If it did, states like PA would be more different - they didn't go through a leasing boom or access issue more or less than what they were before or in-line with the "general" trend in hunting.

[dbHunterNY]

28 minutes ago, phade said:

By eliminating a larger population of the pool, they now have revenue generation that didn't exist prior. This is also politically motivated; not biologically motivated. If it were, this document wouldn't have holes a Mack truck could drive through - such as the WMUs in and out. Or the fact that some WMUs have as much as 30-35% of their one year old bucks with 3 points a side. AR is supposed to advance the age class at a higher rate to two.

There is no getting it - if you have two spots - find a third if the first two aren't meeting your needs. It took us having an active 6 properties we hunt to get where we wanted. None are perfect, but they all add up cumulatively.

more yearling bucks living and a better age structure would help biologically though. any biologist would say that.  it's just at some subjective point the effort isn't worth the results.  also the restrictions vary from 3 -4 points on a side based off what i'd believe is antler point harvest data collected by DEC and related hunter harvest tendencies. looks like there might be science in this after all.

[growalot]

Quote

it came from DEC.  haha seriously.  all the hunter input surveys, buck management zones, etc all developed it.  DEC planned to roll it out.  Politics within DEC squashed it and now politics is bringing it back.

Then you had the answer to your question...Now answer this... Why would they take 2 such units as 8M and 8X..I know these areas and omit them from AR's while circling them with units in AR's

[dbHunterNY]

15 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I would love to know what info they used to determine what dwu's are included or not?


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DEC calls it their Structured Decision Making model.  it includes soil data, antler point harvest data, all those hunter surveys that were done, and some other things.  at least this seems to be consistent with that.  i have nothing to do with this and actually didn't know about this legislation until i saw it here.

[Five Seasons]

14 minutes ago, phade said:

It's the same old circle. Those who can afford to or outwork, do. Those who cannot or will not, don't.

 

trust me I'm with you. I've done well for myself in my career by putting in effort. I don't believe in trophies for all, I believe the best rewards come to those who work for them. We're aligned.

So the question I have for you is this. Knowing people are becoming lazier, that younger generations crave instant success, lawyers are making land owners more leery and more and more farm land is sold to developers...

do you not think hunter numbers will continue to drop? And if you agree that they will, do you think an effort to enact ARs wouldn't help the average joe? I'm not speaking specifically to this bill.

again, I'm on the fence. I'm not promoting ARs. I just wanted to point out that I feel I understand why it's an issue that wont go away.

[growalot]

You guys talk of age structure and ratios...1:1 or 1:2...being so  wonderful...Lets talk about, say my situation...where doe have several, no doe hunting, low pressured areas to go. They hang during the day and only move at night. Now You have some of those "perfect" ratio's in place...When do the deer need to move to breed?...Is there a bunch of chasing and seeking? Are these deer now at home, staying on their day time sanctuaries and traveling to feed only at nighT...no buck to chase them around...everyone's paired up and happy campers...is that it?

Serious question.

[phade]

25 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

more yearling bucks living and a better age structure would help biologically though. any biologist would say that.  it's just at some subjective point the effort isn't worth the results.  also the restrictions vary from 3 -4 points on a side based off what i'd believe is antler point harvest data collected by DEC and related hunter harvest tendencies. looks like there might be science in this after all.

If science were included, they would not have put in some overpopulation zones, left some out, and put in zones at 4 point where 3 point is much more likely effective. You put 4 a side in some of those zones - you know what this is mimicking? It's mimicking the first time PA did it and over-prescribed the 4 pt side and had to back down on the WMUs that had that level. That caused a TON of hunter frustration right out of the gate for them.

There is little science involved in this bill. It's hastily written and is clearly "written" by a legislator whose team is uneducated. Remember the SAFE Act that didn't allow police to carry/arm certain firearms and they had to push through another clarification to it? That is exactly what this bill is - the former, not the latter.

[dbHunterNY]

15 minutes ago, growalot said:

You guys talk of age structure and ratios...1:1 or 1:2...being so  wonderful...Lets talk about, say my situation...where doe have several, no doe hunting, low pressured areas to go. They hang during the day and only move at night. Now You have some of those "perfect" ratio's in place...When do the deer need to move to breed?...Is there a bunch of chasing and seeking? Are these deer now at home, staying on their day time sanctuaries and traveling to feed only at nighT...no buck to chase them around...everyone's paired up and happy campers...is that it?

Serious question.

they go hand in hand much of the time, but age structure is more important than ratio from a biological stand point.

if you're more toward a "perfect" ration if there is such a thing, it'd be exactly the opposite.  it'd create more competition and get bucks on their feet more.  high doe to buck ratios lead to what you said with lack of movement and more time spent in their safe place.  why would a buck leave when there's doe available very close by with little competition for them.  a train of bucks on a doe get that doe moving and the bucks follow.

[phade]

27 minutes ago, Belo said:

trust me I'm with you. I've done well for myself in my career by putting in effort. I don't believe in trophies for all, I believe the best rewards come to those who work for them. We're aligned.

So the question I have for you is this. Knowing people are becoming lazier, that younger generations crave instant success, lawyers are making land owners more leery and more and more farm land is sold to developers...

do you not think hunter numbers will continue to drop? And if you agree that they will, do you think an effort to enact ARs wouldn't help the average joe? I'm not speaking specifically to this bill.

again, I'm on the fence. I'm not promoting ARs. I just wanted to point out that I feel I understand why it's an issue that wont go away.

If hunter numbers fall because of access - the problem becomes MUCH less about AR and more about population control. Let's face it AR is a nice to have, not a need to have tool, even for those who support it. At the end of the day, the resource as defined by the DEC can be managed simply by issuing tags and season/implement dates - and that's what the DEC will focus on if population control becomes an issue. Don't believe me, we can all remember the no buck rule. That showed they will enact what they "believe" is right when they absolutely need to when it comes to population control - regardless of hunter input. That is why we'll end up with a MZ season in Sept or Oct in these same WMUs.

Let's also not forget that changing hunter dynamics are in play - archery accounts for 23-24% of overall harvest nationwide, whereas 10 years ago it was ~15%. More urbanization = more bowhunting and more crossbow hunting.

[dbHunterNY]

27 minutes ago, phade said:

If science were included, they would not have put in some overpopulation zones, left some out, and put in zones at 4 point where 3 point is much more likely effective. You put 4 a side in some of those zones - you know what this is mimicking? It's mimicking the first time PA did it and over-prescribed the 4 pt side and had to back down on the WMUs that had that level. That caused a TON of hunter frustration right out of the gate for them.

There is little science involved in this bill. It's hastily written and is clearly "written" by a legislator whose team is uneducated. Remember the SAFE Act that didn't allow police to carry/arm certain firearms and they had to push through another clarification to it? That is exactly what this bill is - the former, not the latter.

site seems lagged and i lost my response.  hunter interests good, bad, or indifferent, often trump science with deer management here in NY.  in the excluded zones there's more push back against antler restrictions for some reason than in other areas.  look at what happened when DEC implemented no buck harvest the first 2 weeks in those "overpopulated" areas.  they got roasted for it and went back to the way it was.  seems whomever had a hand in this legislation learned from what happened in those areas and they got left out.

[phade]

33 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

site seems lagged and i lost my response.  hunter interests good, bad, or indifferent, often trump science with deer management here in NY.  in the excluded zones there's more push back against antler restrictions for some reason than in other areas.  look at what happened when DEC implemented no buck harvest the first 2 weeks in those "overpopulated" areas.  they got roasted for it and went back to the way it was.  seems whomever had a hand in this legislation learned from what happened in those areas and they got left out.

But that is the thing - some of those no buck zones are in this bill some are not - bet dollars that this was because the author was simply uneducated. I highly doubt the DEC has data drilled down enough to allow this bill to be factually based - especially because the whole no buck thing was dropped like a hot potato across all of those zones - if it were in some but not others, then I'd be open to believing the DEC has that level of data. It much more likely was hastily written.

Edited February 28, 2017 by phade

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

I don't know how old you are...young enough to traverse the wall of Letchworth, I'll assume not too old. Me ,this year I start pushing my way to 60...older but not old. I do know many older gentleman and some gals that are older hunters...some with failing health...They go through what can be an extreme effort to hit the woods and I can tell you they could give a damn about deer size...They just want to say they shot a deer that year and they enjoyed eating it. If you throw the old doe thing at me, I just may puke...I should have proven that it's not always easy to get a doe to show in day light...and I hunt more than most. So some of these older people may have that one single opportunity and it could be a 4 or 6 pt...They deserve that opportunity. See you(general term) younger  chest beat bucks that need bragging rights...well most of you have a good many years left to make that choice...If that is what you want, go for it...you obviously don't need a law to force you to wait. Oh I forgot in" today's world", your not suppose to wait, you should be able to have a big buck behind every other tree. That's what will make them so much more special to shoot....Like picking the biggest apple in the bin..So many big apples in that bin, all very tasty and bright...You just needed to pick and choose the very biggest... Yes my sarcasm is back

Well the first answer is 53...Still more than able to scale the walls of the Park for sure. The next sad thing is that not everybody will be happy with every choice made when it comes to deer hunting. But...The numbers are on the side of bigger is better these days and thats where the money is at.  I can tell you from hunting the park the last 18 seasons straight that before Ar started you could rent a cabin about any time, a year after they started Ar a person had to rent a cabin for the whole week to have a cabin for opening day, Now you have to rent a cabin for 10-14 days ahead just to be on for opening day. People know and will pay whatever it takes to play when it comes to big whitetails. Just the way of the world today. If you dont dig deep you will have no place to hunt on private land, If you have good hunting land now that you hunt on for free i could just about promise you that there are other hunters in that area thinking about leasing that property out from under you.

[Two Track]

No matter the number of points the antler has, you can't eat them.

I don't care how big the antlers are, or if they have any at all, just want to put some meat in the freezer.

If it looks like a very young deer, then will let it pass - not much for meat any way and they typically hang out close to mom - a dead giveaway that they are a yearling.  Who wants a 40-60 lb. deer any way.

I never saw any of those surveys - never asked my opinion and I am in one of the areas listed that they supposedly surveyed.

The phrase opportunities to take a large buck is should be clarified. 

What if the issue is lack of available good places to hunt and/or time to hunt. There are people who want opportunities to take a large buck but may only have 2 days the whole season to hunt - the big issue may just be the lack of time to pre-scout and actually hunt.  All they may want is a longer season, not have to told that besides their limited time they have to look for deer of a certain size if it is a buck.  If they have no doe tags, then why bother wasting the little time they have to hunt, the odds have then having any opportunity for any deer have gotten worse.

[Trial153]

I voted in favor of it! Thanks for the link lol

[Trial153]

I voted in favor of it! Thanks for the link lol

[Trial153]

I voted in favor of it! Thanks for the link lol

[growalot]

FSW..We may not agree, but I give you credit...you are right it's all about the money. As far as the park is concerned think about this. How many guys now get on the net and talk to EVERYONE then show pictures of Letchworth hunting and deer takes. Give tips talk about were to stay...come on, of course it's going to get packed. For one thing, it's just a place many never considered  nor heard of before social networking. So as the net grew the knowledge of the park grew.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

FSW..We may not agree, but I give you credit...you are right it's all about the money. As far as the park is concerned think about this. How many guys now get on the net and talk to EVERYONE then show pictures of Letchworth hunting and deer takes. Give tips talk about were to stay...come on, of course it's going to get packed. For one thing, it's just a place many never considered  nor heard of before social networking. So as the net grew the knowledge of the park grew.

True and I have no problem helping someone but point is.  No Ar and not the big bucks on the park in the numbers?  But they stopped the Ar so I am sure word will get out that the place sucks and not many big bucks around. Lol

Edited March 1, 2017 by Four Season Whitetails

[dbHunterNY]

it came from DEC.  haha seriously.  all the hunter input surveys, buck management zones, etc all developed it.  DEC planned to roll it out.  Politics within DEC squashed it and now politics is bringing it back.

Then you had the answer to your question...Now answer this... Why would they take 2 such units as 8M and 8X..I know these areas and omit them from AR's while circling them with units in AR's

If it came from what I think it did from DEC, then I can't answer that. Reason being a lot went into it. All stuff we've discussed here is the past surveys, buck management zones, failed management attempts, etc collectively a model and then a decision was made. Whether it's a poor decision for any respective unit is another thing. Some stuff must have carried more weight than others to make that determination.

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[dbHunterNY]

But that is the thing - some of those no buck zones are in this bill some are not - bet dollars that this was because the author was simply uneducated. I highly doubt the DEC has data drilled down enough to allow this bill to be factually based - especially because the whole no buck thing was dropped like a hot potato across all of those zones - if it were in some but not others, then I'd be open to believing the DEC has that level of data. It much more likely was hastily written.

I've got strong suspicions of where this came from. The no buck thing was much less a factor I think ompared to other stuff because it was recent. Plans for any possible AR implementation were in place well before then. It starts probably way back to when they wrote the last deer management plan. DEC had right in there possible implementation of AR's. They wouldn't put something in print if they didn't have a plan and their ass covered. This legislation obviously isn't the doing of DEC though. Just someone else picking up where they left off. This bills sponsor is the environmental committee chair. You really think he's going to take ownership of something like this coming from Joe nobody that has an agenda? Senator Omara is a smart man. I've talked to him face to face in private. Bet what you will though on this being all half ass. Dont worry I won't take your money.

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[phade]

Sure thing boss.


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[BizCT]

How about no deer hunting whatsoever in the entire state for 2 full years. What would the results be?


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[dbHunterNY]

No matter the number of points the antler has, you can't eat them.
I don't care how big the antlers are, or if they have any at all, just want to put some meat in the freezer.
If it looks like a very young deer, then will let it pass - not much for meat any way and they typically hang out close to mom - a dead giveaway that they are a yearling.  Who wants a 40-60 lb. deer any way.
I never saw any of those surveys - never asked my opinion and I am in one of the areas listed that they supposedly surveyed.
The phrase opportunities to take a large buck is should be clarified. 
What if the issue is lack of available good places to hunt and/or time to hunt. There are people who want opportunities to take a large buck but may only have 2 days the whole season to hunt - the big issue may just be the lack of time to pre-scout and actually hunt.  All they may want is a longer season, not have to told that besides their limited time they have to look for deer of a certain size if it is a buck.  If they have no doe tags, then why bother wasting the little time they have to hunt, the odds have then having any opportunity for any deer have gotten worse.

This basically has your interests in mind it's protecting the smaller yearlings you said you pass anyway. In reality it'll have more bucks growing to your harvest target based on meat.

The survey sample size statistically is so small they probably didn't ask you but the results are still legit.

It isn't feasible to design seasons around someone that wants to hunt only 2 days out of our long seasons and be successful. Their choice to limit their own success so much. Not on anyone else.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

42 minutes ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

How about no deer hunting whatsoever in the entire state for 2 full years. What would the results be?


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DEC going Broke?

[BigVal]

52 minutes ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

How about no deer hunting whatsoever in the entire state for 2 full years. What would the results be?


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Booners behind every tree for sure. Lol