Fastest compound bows

[Jmny]

56 minutes ago, Doc said:

Is there really anybody who can seriously say that there has not been a marked increase in attention to crossbow R & D in recent years? Come on..... let's be a little honest here. Technology is all consumer inspired and marketing driven. And right now with every other ad being about the latest and greatest crossbow, they are receiving the consumer attention and dollars needed to spur on a new wave of technology with no end in sight. So I don't care if crossbows have been around since man began to eat meat, there is no honest doubt in anyone's mind that there is a modern day new wave of interest in research and development of crossbows. So, I really don't have a clue, nor does anyone else, as to what a crossbow will look like or do in the future. But we are getting a few clues from some of the You-tube innovations on display on the internet. Like I said, they have a whole new platform to invent off of now, and the dollars and consumer interest to propel that technology forward. You ain't seen nothing yet.

A very astute commentary.

[Buckmaster7600]

Is there really anybody who can seriously say that there has not been a marked increase in attention to crossbow R & D in recent years? Come on..... let's be a little honest here. Technology is all consumer inspired and marketing driven. And right now with every other ad being about the latest and greatest crossbow, they are receiving the consumer attention and dollars needed to spur on a new wave of technology with no end in sight. So I don't care if crossbows have been around since man began to eat meat, there is no honest doubt in anyone's mind that there is a modern day new wave of interest in research and development of crossbows. So, I really don't have a clue, nor does anyone else, as to what a crossbow will look like or do in the future. But we are getting a few clues from some of the You-tube innovations on display on the internet. Like I said, they have a whole new platform to invent off of now, and the dollars and consumer interest to propel that technology forward. You ain't seen nothing yet.

It's called technology doc, the computer you're typing in doesn't look the same as one from 30 years ago. The cellphone I'm typing on doesn't look the same as 30 years ago. The truck I'm about to drive to go go hunting is the same as they were 30yrs ago. Everything I have listed has become more efficient doing more in a smaller package "minus truck," becoming faster and/or lighter is the name of the game for nearly every item we buy today.

I'm assuming you're not a Mennonite or a Amish given that you're posting on the Internet but approximately what year's technology do you think was good enough to stop at?


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[Core]

I agree with doc's assertion that technology into crossbows has accelerated of late. I haven't seen any change in vertical bows in a few years. I only quantify change as FPS since other changes that are made each year to vertical that are not FPS are hard to objectively measure against one another.

[Buckmaster7600]

I agree with doc's assertion that technology into crossbows has accelerated of late. I haven't seen any change in vertical bows in a few years. I only quantify change as FPS since other changes that are made each year to vertical that are not FPS are hard to objectively measure against one another.

Crossbow hunting has been the second fastest growing hunting weapon since the 70's. We were shielded from it here in NY because it got its legs down south. Crossbow technology has been making big gains for over 20 years. Now I am totally against full inclusion however technology is changing hunting at a very rapid pace and not just Xbows. Compounds are quieter and easier to shoot than ever before. You can buy a rifle and scope for under 400$ that will shoot under 1moa regularly. Trail cameras that send pictures to your phone the second it's taken. An ozonics that masks your scent while in a tree, the list could go on for days. All of these things are technological advances that were unheard of 10 or 20 years ago.

If I remember correctly you are on your first crossbow. Many of the guys that have been in the Xbow game for a long time have realized that speed doesn't matter, many of them believe the same thing I do that 340-360fps is the sweet spot for a crossbow. Look at the new mission that just came out its their top of the line bow that costs 1700$ and it's rated at 350fps and they can't make them fast enough. Most of the scorpyd guys I know are using the 100lb limbs because that's where they shoot the best and are quite.

One day technology will have a breakthrough and we may be shooting Xbows at 500fps and by them compounds will be over 400. Both XBows and compounds are against a wall with technology. Xbows want speed while being narrow and compounds want speed but have to find it with 70lb draw.

The ravine was a game changer but in a 2 second Google search you can find that they are having a ton of problems with them and the company is in trouble with a ton of lawsuits against them.

Scorpyd' shave been around for over 10 years and have been the speed bow since they were new and most people have never heard of them.


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[Five Seasons]

It's called technology doc, the computer you're typing in doesn't look the same as one from 30 years ago. The cellphone I'm typing on doesn't look the same as 30 years ago. The truck I'm about to drive to go go hunting is the same as they were 30yrs ago. Everything I have listed has become more efficient doing more in a smaller package "minus truck," becoming faster and/or lighter is the name of the game for nearly every item we buy today.

I'm assuming you're not a Mennonite or a Amish given that you're posting on the Internet but approximately what year's technology do you think was good enough to stop at?


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Docs point is that without demand, you wouldn’t see the boom. And it doesn’t look to be slowing. So expect some ridiculous advantage distancing tech over the next 5 years.


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[Buckmaster7600]

Docs point is that without demand, you wouldn’t see the boom. And it doesn’t look to be slowing. So expect some ridiculous advantage distancing tech over the next 5 years.


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I understand that but my point is how is it worrisome about Xbow technology but not other aspects of hunting?

Like it or not Xbows are here to stay we can only hope we don't get full inclusion.


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[Core]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I understand that but my point is how is it worrisome about Xbow technology but not other aspects of hunting?

Like it or not Xbows are here to stay we can only hope we don't get full inclusion.


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I hope they don't as well, but I suspect they will.

[Five Seasons]

I understand that but my point is how is it worrisome about Xbow technology but not other aspects of hunting?

Like it or not Xbows are here to stay we can only hope we don't get full inclusion.


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I think some of the things you mentioned are gimmicky. But archery is treasured for its perception of tradition and origin, even if our compounds and scentlok are nothing like a spear and loin cloth. It’s still as close as we will get.
To throw in these autococking, bipod, scoped modern crossbows it really infringes on that


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[Buckmaster7600]

I think some of the things you mentioned are gimmicky. But archery is treasured for its perception of tradition and origin, even if our compounds and scentlok are nothing like a spear and loin cloth. It’s still as close as we will get.
To throw in these autococking, bipod, scoped modern crossbows it really infringes on that


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Lol, once agin I am against full inclusion but I have to laugh at your response. So it's ok to use the most modern compound, with an electronic rangefinder, scent lock clothes, cover scents, shooting carbon arrows, lighted pins, lighted nocks etc because of its "perception of tradition?"

What in the hell is traditional about most bow hunters today?

I am opposed to inclusion because bow season was something you had to earn. Although compounds are way easier to shoot than trad bows you still have to put a little time and effort into killing critters with them. An Xbow is a sight in and hunt weapon, zero practice needed.

But like everything else in this day and age people don't want to put in work but still want things. Part of this is people's lives changing many people don't have time to shoot for weeks or months before season. In my opinion too bad, should have chose a different career if hunting was important.


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[Jmny]

Wow,  I believe I read we’re somone stated my opinion was basically me talking outside both sides of my mouth. That’s why I have to chuckle after reading the two previous texts.  “Archery is Treasured for its perception of tradition and origin”And you chose to hunt with a compound, mechanical release, probably a compound that has  65-80 % let off. Increased technology is arrows and broadheads, all resulting in greater speeds and kinetic energy (foot pounds) that resulted from you abilities to draw and hold a higher draw weight, which all translates to TECHNOLOGY.  You are no where close to a traditional Hunter.  At least I can be honest with myself.  And do you honestly believe that by using all the applied technology that you “ have earned the right” to exclude other hunters from being able to enjoy the pursuit of deer for the entire archery season?  Well, let me tell you that the majority of those who would choose  to use the crossbow for archery season are the true individuals that have “EARNED” the right to hunt the entire archery season. Us older hunters, that had choices of either recurve or compounds with a maximum let off of 50%.   Let me guess, Tuesday night you walked around with a recurve, finger glove, maybe a sight pin and made believe you were a traditional bowhunter. ( trick or treat) the biggest draw back to   “want  to be’s” are their ego’s.  Nothing is preventing you from actually becoming a traditional hunter. Give up all your technology advancements and then you will earn my respect and appreciation for your point of view.  Until then keep drooling out both sides. Thanks for the chuckles.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jmny

[Doc]

19 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

.....It's called technology doc.....

I realize that. And it was not too many years ago that people were talking about setting up a computer hunting system where you sat on your couch at home and remotely maneuvered a camera and a remote weapon to harvest their deer. That was called a new technological advancement in hunting too. And even though they finally (and correctly) made that illegal, I'll just bet there were a lot of people, perhaps even yourself, who lamented that unfair blow to hunting technology opportunities.

I always have to wonder about those who cry about selfishness, elitism, and exclusionary attitudes, and the fact that we ethically should be using the most efficient and humane weapons during bow season and yet have no problems excluding gun hunters (young, old, infirm, and both genders) from participation on bow season.

Yes, all of these same old tired arguments have been spewed out from the first day that Allen hung the first eccentric on a bow and filed his patent. We don't seem to be able to exercise any form of self-control when it comes to polluting the bow season with technology. So maybe you're right. Maybe it is time to simply eliminate "special seasons" altogether and just get right to what so many people are clamoring for. Drop all the pretense and just go for what ever technology can supply that will get that deer down in the quickest, most humane, and easiest way possible.

[Buckmaster7600]

I realize that. And it was not too many years ago that people were talking about setting up a computer hunting system where you sat on your couch at home and remotely maneuvered a camera and a remote weapon to harvest their deer. That was called a new technological advancement in hunting too. And even though they finally (and correctly) made that illegal, I'll just bet there were a lot of people, perhaps even yourself, who lamented that unfair blow to hunting technology opportunities.
I always have to wonder about those who cry about selfishness, elitism, and exclusionary attitudes, and the fact that we ethically should be using the most efficient and humane weapons during bow season and yet have no problems excluding gun hunters (young, old, infirm, and both genders) from participation on bow season.
Yes, all of these same old tired arguments have been spewed out from the first day that Allen hung the first eccentric on a bow and filed his patent. We don't seem to be able to exercise any form of self-control when it comes to polluting the bow season with technology. So maybe you're right. Maybe it is time to simply eliminate "special seasons" altogether and just get right to what so many people are clamoring for. Drop all the pretense and just go for what ever technology can supply that will get that deer down in the quickest, most humane, and easiest way possible.

I never once said I wanted the "special seasons removed" actually the opposite, I will say again I am 100% against inclusion.

My point is who the hell are you to decide what technology is ok and what isn't? Why are you fighting the good fight against Xbows but not against trail cameras that send real time photos to your cell phone. Or electronic rifle scopes that range the target and automatically adjust your crosshairs to be point of impact? The list could go on forever.


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[genesee_mohican]

 We've had a couple years now with crossbow allowed the last 2 weeks of archery and I didn't see any increase in the number of hunters out on the state land I hunt. From what others have posted, the deer harvest didn't blow up during "archery" season. I've been bow hunting for 41 years I think there advantages and disadvantages with hunting with a crossbow. Unless I go out and put a shooting rail on all my tree stands, it's not an advantage in accuracy and seems like a disadvantage in some cases. I can balance my compound and hold rock steady at any angle but can't with my crossbow, unless I have a good rest. Twigs still deflect arrows and bolts, deer still drop down at the sound of the shot and all the other factors come into play.

On the upside, hopefully the wounding rate will drop a little and the guys and gals that are unable to draw a bow due to physical limitation can get out to hunt with a crossbow for a couple of days ( 2 weekends of crossbow, unless one is retired of has a lot of vacation days), before gun season starts.

Having another choice is a good thing, everyone has a choice of what they want to carry out in the field. Pick the one you enjoy hunting with, have fun and good luck bagging a deer!!

[Five Seasons]

22 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

What in the hell is traditional about most bow hunters today?

 

not much. that's why i said "as close as we will get". Although getting a deer within 30 is pretty traditional. 

[brownclown]

10 hours ago, Jmny said:

And do you honestly believe that by using all the applied technology that you “ have earned the right” to exclude other hunters from being able to enjoy the pursuit of deer for the entire archery season? 

But NO ONE is being excluded. AND I have yet to read a single comment from anyone who is against allowing "disabled" or "older" from being part of the full archery season.

[Doc]

5 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I never once said I wanted the "special seasons removed" actually the opposite, I will say again I am 100% against inclusion.

My point is who the hell are you to decide what technology is ok and what isn't? Why are you fighting the good fight against Xbows but not against trail cameras that send real time photos to your cell phone. Or electronic rifle scopes that range the target and automatically adjust your crosshairs to be point of impact? The list could go on forever.

Just like you, I am setting limits on what is acceptable to me and how I think the rules should be drawn up...... yes, just exactly like you. Just as you have decided that guns don't belong in bow season, you are putting limits on technology in bow season, aren't you? I mean if you are being honest about maintaining any special seasons, the whole concept is based on technological limitations.

In fact your statement about being "100% against inclusion" is an exclusionary statement.....right? That is a judgment on your part that some technology belongs in bow season and some does not. It is absolutely no different than my position. That is what makes a "special season". It is all a judgment for or against specific technologies. We may have different ideas on where to draw lines, but if we believe in "special seasons", we all draw lines.

[Core]

5 hours ago, genesee_mohican said:

On the upside, hopefully the wounding rate will drop a little and the guys and gals that are unable to draw a bow due to physical limitation can get out to hunt with a crossbow for a couple of days ( 2 weekends of crossbow, unless one is retired of has a lot of vacation days), before gun season starts.

Only study I'm aware of indicates wounding rate is very slightly lower on crossbow.

I'm against full inclusion but I have a neighbor who bow hunts and this year he went out after only firing maybe a dozen or two arrows since last year (!). He's also a pretty terrible shot based on the first two deer he shot at this year. For him a crossbow could be good, though they still take tons more range time to use properly than with a gun, I believe.

I have another guy who told me on Monday he's thinking of getting the xbow I recommended this week and then he could go out this saturday. First year hunting, no archery experience, and very little shooting experience. I'm truly hoping he doesn't do it. He has nowhere to practice, no range finder, and clearly is of the impression that he can get the crossbow, "sight it in", and then he's good to hit the woods. The good news for any deer is that unless they're immediately in front of him he'll probably have no chance of hitting them. My guess is this guy doesn't go through with it.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Core

[Doc]

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:03 AM, Belo said:

Docs point is that without demand, you wouldn’t see the boom. And it doesn’t look to be slowing. So expect some ridiculous advantage distancing tech over the next 5 years.

 

 

Actually, if I want to exercise my imagination a bit, I believe that before too long, there will be self-cocking crossbows taking away the awkward re-cocking complaints for getting second or third shots. There are already prototypes for repeating crossbows that actually work. And that is just off the top of my head without any R&D budget. Speed? ...... Yes, I am looking for huge increases. But I think the big increases in crossbow technology will go way beyond just speed and range. They now have the real estate of a stock to house mechanisms and even additional power sources beyond simple bent limbs. The sky is the limit. It's a whole new ball game. I can point in a whole lot of directions and show that technology does not stay still when new lucrative markets are opening up. Anyone who thinks that x-bows are all done developing are simply not being honest. As I keep saying ..... "We ain't seen nothing yet!" And more and more, all of this stuff is OK with more and more people. Ha-ha..... we may see that "computer coming back into consideration.

[Five Seasons]

50 minutes ago, Doc said:

Actually, if I want to exercise my imagination a bit, I believe that before too long, there will be self-cocking crossbows taking away the awkward re-cocking complaints for getting second or third shots. There are already prototypes for repeating crossbows that actually work. And that is just off the top of my head without any R&D budget. Speed? ...... Yes, I am looking for huge increases. But I think the big increases in crossbow technology will go way beyond just speed and range. They now have the real estate of a stock to house mechanisms and even additional power sources beyond simple bent limbs. The sky is the limit. It's a whole new ball game. I can point in a whole lot of directions and show that technology does not stay still when new lucrative markets are opening up. Anyone who thinks that x-bows are all done developing are simply not being honest. As I keep saying ..... "We ain't seen nothing yet!" And more and more, all of this stuff is OK with more and more people. Ha-ha..... we may see that "computer coming back into consideration.

yep. and once you allow them in, there's no turning back. I do predict 5 to 10 years from now a few guys maybe regretting their stance. 

[Buckmaster7600]

Just like you, I am setting limits on what is acceptable to me and how I think the rules should be drawn up...... yes, just exactly like you. Just as you have decided that guns don't belong in bow season, you are putting limits on technology in bow season, aren't you? I mean if you are being honest about maintaining any special seasons, the whole concept is based on technological limitations.
In fact your statement about being "100% against inclusion" is an exclusionary statement.....right? That is a judgment on your part that some technology belongs in bow season and some does not. It is absolutely no different than my position. That is what makes a "special season". It is all a judgment for or against specific technologies. We may have different ideas on where to draw lines, but if we believe in "special seasons", we all draw lines.

How am I drawing a line on technology? I like it the way it is I just don't want full inclusion. It has nothing to do with the technology it is the implement itself.


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[Jmny]

Would be nice to have a discussion dealing with present-day factual information.  Many of the respondents are using heir imagination to forecast what they believe will be the  technology advancements in the future.  I'm very limited, I can only make an assessment of current actual facts.   After reading some of these threads, I believe there are certain manufactures that have built crossbows than exceed New York state crossbow regulations.  Can't speak to the other states rules and regulations, Apparently there is an alternative market for crossbows.   This,in my opinion is exactly where the NYCC is undertaking the wrong approach to getting the crossbow inclusive for the entire archery season.   That should be the sole amended change in the present rules and regulations. To do so, would automatically adjust the license requirement to be an archery license(permit).  Not necessitate a muzzleloader permit. And leave all the other restrictions in place. The decision to make a weapon that isn't allowed for hunting in all states wasn't mind. Nor do I feel obligated to defend their point of view(aka profitability).  Especially in view of the additional request for exemptions (bundling)would either slow the process or totally defeat it.

What older hunter that hunted with a recurve or compound bow that had a maximum let off 50%  and speeds of 225-275 fps would believe the newer compounds the last 10 years.  The increase in draw weight let off is outstanding believe it ranges to 80 percent.  Quite a difference from a recurve and compounds of the seventies,eighties and early nineties. The ones us older hunters grew up using. With quite a few bows being capable of propelling an arrow 350fps and the corresponding increase in kinetic energy. ( which makes the use the bow, worthy of use for other big game animals   

A bow with a IBO rating of 350 with a draw weight of 70 pounds with a 29" draw will propelling an arrow @ 310 fps, 211.4 mph, with a kinetic energy of 91.8 ft lbs.   Suggested minimum kinetic energy for deer hunting 25_30 ft lbs.   So much more advanced than us older hunters had at our disposal to bow hunt..  I guess one could stay we earned the right to pick our choice of bow during the entire archery season.

[wfmiller]

Crossbows not being allowed during the bow season is stupid. The bottom line is this, it is an arrow being shot by a string. It has absolutely no effect on a guy that wants to use a compound instead. Just like that guy has no effect on a guy that uses a recurve. None of it, not one thing about crossbow inclusion would effect anybody elses hunt. Come Saturday my father and I will share the woods, him with his crossbow, me with my compound and guess what? It makes no difference in my hunt what he is using. 

[nyslowhand]

14 hours ago, Doc said:

Actually, if I want to exercise my imagination a bit, I believe that before too long, there will be self-cocking crossbows taking away the awkward re-cocking complaints for getting second or third shots. There are already prototypes for repeating crossbows that actually work. And that is just off the top of my head without any R&D budget. Speed? ...... Yes, I am looking for huge increases. But I think the big increases in crossbow technology will go way beyond just speed and range. They now have the real estate of a stock to house mechanisms and even additional power sources beyond simple bent limbs. The sky is the limit. It's a whole new ball game. I can point in a whole lot of directions and show that technology does not stay still when new lucrative markets are opening up. Anyone who thinks that x-bows are all done developing are simply not being honest. As I keep saying ..... "We ain't seen nothing yet!" And more and more, all of this stuff is OK with more and more people. Ha-ha..... we may see that "computer coming back into consideration.

What you're missing is the fact a Xbow is merely a short A-A compound bow with cams, a shortened draw length, cables & a string very similar to a compound bow. They do have 2-3X draw wgts, are mounted horizontally on a stock with a draw locking & trigger feature. JMO, very much like the acceptable draw lock mechanisms! I will admit Xbows also do have the advantage of a scope. Only technology advancements I've seen in Xbows the past 5yrs or so is the reverse draw and limb/cam improvements. Which is getting Xbow performance into the 400fps range with somewhat lower draw wgts. Aren't newer compound bows only 10-15% below that...? Believe I've seen newer compound bows with up to 90-99% let-off. Guessing those aren't technologies you object to..? Money buys the latest technology, but if you're like me you still have at least 3-5yr old archery tackle!?!

Understandably with all the marketing of Xbows being bench shot at a 100yrd target, you'd cringe at the thought of using a Xbow during archery season!! I have used a Xbow for a couple years and would never shoot beyond 40yrds, still want that archery style of hunting being up close and personal with what I am pursuing. How do you feel about the bogus TV shows with compound bow shoots out to 65-100yrds? Makes me cringe being a bow hunter for numerous decades!

Until you've actually shot a Xbow, carried one into the woods or hunted with one - most sentiments I've heard against them are pure speculation and based on self-centered "ME" opinions attempting to control what weapons neighboring hunters prefer to use &/or what deer they harvest. At least to me, it's not my woods, my season, my way or the highway and especially not my deer (BBs)!!

Got a rebuttal, I'm open to hear any factual based conversations!

[Doc]

14 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

How am I drawing a line on technology? I like it the way it is I just don't want full inclusion. It has nothing to do with the technology it is the implement itself.

Let me simplify it a bit for you. Each implement serves as a place-holder in the hierarchy of technology. If you exclude one level of technology from bow season, you have drawn a line. Do you follow me so far? If you believe in "special seasons", you are defining what level of technology is suitable to be included in those "special seasons". That is called drawing a line. Honestly, I can't make it any simpler than that.

[Doc]

44 minutes ago, nyslowhand said:

What you're missing is the fact a Xbow is merely a short A-A compound bow with cams, a shortened draw length, cables & a string very similar to a compound bow. They do have 2-3X draw wgts, are mounted horizontally on a stock with a draw locking & trigger feature. JMO, very much like the acceptable draw lock mechanisms! I will admit Xbows also do have the advantage of a scope. Only technology advancements I've seen in Xbows the past 5yrs or so is the reverse draw and limb/cam improvements. Which is getting Xbow performance into the 400fps range with somewhat lower draw wgts. Aren't newer compound bows only 10-15% below that...? Believe I've seen newer compound bows with up to 90-99% let-off. Guessing those aren't technologies you object to..? Money buys the latest technology, but if you're like me you still have at least 3-5yr old archery tackle!?!

Understandably with all the marketing of Xbows being bench shot at a 100yrd target, you'd cringe at the thought of using a Xbow during archery season!! I have used a Xbow for a couple years and would never shoot beyond 40yrds, still want that archery style of hunting being up close and personal with what I am pursuing. How do you feel about the bogus TV shows with compound bow shoots out to 65-100yrds? Makes me cringe being a bow hunter for numerous decades!

Until you've actually shot a Xbow, carried one into the woods or hunted with one - most sentiments I've heard against them are pure speculation and based on self-centered "ME" opinions attempting to control what weapons neighboring hunters prefer to use &/or what deer they harvest. At least to me, it's not my woods, my season, my way or the highway and especially not my deer (BBs)!!

Got a rebuttal, I'm open to hear any factual based conversations!

Everybody seems to think that everything that will be invented already has been invented. Well, let me assure you that technology does not stop at 2017. What kinds of things are people looking at these days? Where are they trying to make crossbow technology go into the future. Well, take a look at this design direction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKGjRoSofA

Yes, it has a long ways to go before the design can be considered hunting technology (that's why it is still in the realm of future technology), but it gives you an idea of where the minds of engineers are heading, It shows that if you can imagine it, it eventually can be done. This is one extreme example, but now with a stock to work with and to hold canisters of compressed air or battery powered implements to drive mechanisms, we are now entering an all new era of bow design that was never before imagined with vertical bows. No, it's not here yet, but then neither were compound bows back when bow seasons were established.

By the way, this line of discussion is not an argument for or against inclusion of crossbows in bow season. I am simply looking downstream at where "bow" season is likely to go. I am recognizing the mentality of most of todays hunters to minimize challenge, and picturing where that is likely guiding bow season technology. Sometimes a little studying of history gives some insight into the future.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Doc