Nyack "Coywolf " update

[Rattler]

OK, I'll grant you successful rebuttal to that one paragraph, as well as some credit for the invasive species paragraph.  How about addressing the rest of the post?

[Padre86]

On 12/15/2017 at 9:55 AM, Curmudgeon said:

As far as the subjective arguments that there are fewer turkeys, let us return to the mesopredator issue - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopredator_release_hypothesis . I accept that foxes, skunks, raccoons and possums destroy more turkey nests than coyotes kill turkeys. Coyotes limit the populations of several of those species. When we discuss fewer turkeys - and this is both real and subjective - correlation does not imply causation. Turkey declines - after a exponential rise following reintroduction - were predictable. This is a stabilization of the population. The same thing happens with most invasive species. You can blame whatever you want. That does not make it true.

As far as fewer rabbits. Fooey! Rabbits, rabbits, rabbits. Rabbits up to here. I have the habitat, and more rabbits than I want. If you want more small game, do habitat improvement. Don't go looking for scapegoats.

Coyote will go after Turkey and their nests all the same as the other traditional predators (raccoon, possum, skunk).  I don't know if coyote pressure is necessarily causing a decline in Turkey #'s or not.  A DEC report did note that Turkeys were experiencing a decline in recent years, but that may be due to a number of issues rather than any singular cause.

As for rabbits, and various other small game, I can attest to what others noting: small game is far less common out in the wild.  I see a dozen or so rabbits every month walking down my suburban street; I've maybe seen one or two in all my times out in the ADK's or various WMA's in western NY.  Again, I'm not sure anyone can prove that is 100% due to the increased coyote presence, but I don't think it's stretch of logic to think that the coyote are having an effect of some sort.  The term I've heard used before for that phenomenon is 'human shielding;' certain animals become habituated to living in and around human development because they realize that many of their natural predators are less inclined to follow them into such areas.

In general, I don't think coyote are bad for our local ecosystem.  They do fulfill a predator role that would otherwise be mostly vacant here in the northeast.  I do think they affect other animals populations, some more than others.  This is no different from predators in other parts of North America; upon reintroduction, wolves had a pretty dramatic effect on the various ungulates in the Yellowstone area.  Predator pressure has been an issue for vulnerable populations of big-horned sheep in certain western states, and wolves have been an issue for the small remnant of caribou in the Pacific Northwest US (last I heard, they were on the verge of extirpation).  In those circumstances, predator management is an essential part of ongoing conservation efforts for other animal species. 

Are we at that point with coyote here in the northeast?  I don't think so, but it certainly is an issue to be aware of.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Padre86

[Robhuntandfish]

The last two spring turkey seasons called in as many coyotes as turkeys to my decoys.  Had to waive my arms to get them to leave my decoys alone. Gobbler in the woods next to me and yotes sneaking up on my decoys. I'm guessing they have tasted turkey before. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

10 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

The last two spring turkey seasons called in as many coyotes as turkeys to my decoys.  Had to waive my arms to get them to leave my decoys alone. Gobbler in the woods next to me and yotes sneaking up on my decoys. I'm guessing they have tasted turkey before. 

I have it happen as well. The local turkey population on each of our farms has exploded in the last 2 years. I havent killed any coyotes or fox there the last couple of years, but the raccoons and opossums have been getting hit by lightning left and right. I think Coyotes take some turkeys when they can, but the nest raiders do the most harm.

[Curmudgeon]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:56 PM, Rattler said:

OK, I'll grant you successful rebuttal to that one paragraph, as well as some credit for the invasive species paragraph.  How about addressing the rest of the post?

I believe coyote numbers have increased since the 70s. Without doing a bunch of research right now, I cannot give you any facts. My experiences are just as subjective as any other's. I encountered my first coyotes in the late 70s, or very early 80s, when I was living in Cortland County. I was spending a huge amount of time deer hunting with bow and shotgun in the mid and late 70s. I never saw one while hunting during that period. Now, I see coyotes casually every year, usually while driving. Occasionally while hunting. Often in some wide open wetland habitat near our place in the Adirondacks.

The question for me is not whether or not coyote numbers and range have increased. The question is, what does it mean for the ecosystem? What does it mean for populations of our native species - especially for the plants that form the foundation of the food chain? I see NO control of the deer population. In fact, there were many fewer deer here in the years when I rarely encountered coyotes than there are now. Are there fewer rabbits? Not here. This was a dairy farm. It has been a Christmas tree farm since the early 80s, with many plantations now too big for harvest. Old hay fields are now mixed, young forests. We are loaded with rabbits and squirrels. Turkeys are plentiful but numbers do seem lower that a decade ago. Grouse can be found any day you want to look for them but there are not a lot. They are the only game species that I see much fewer of now. I also don't have a bird dog now. Coyotes eat some game but this tiny little spot of mine has great habitat for some species. If the coyotes are affecting game, I'm hoping it results in less rabbits damage, and fewer squirrels in my grafted nut trees. I also hope they are getting some of the woodchucks.

With every change (habitat, predator distribution) some species will be winners, others losers. With the habitat change on my property, new species have made it their home. Others have disappeared - those that thrived in grasslands.

 

21 hours ago, Padre86 said:

As for rabbits, and various other small game, I can attest to what others noting: small game is far less common out in the wild.  I see a dozen or so rabbits every month walking down my suburban street; I've maybe seen one or two in all my times out in the ADK's or various WMA's in western NY.  Again, I'm not sure anyone can prove that is 100% due to the increased coyote presence, but I don't think it's stretch of logic to think that the coyote are having an effect of some sort.  The term I've heard used before for that phenomenon is 'human shielding;' certain animals become habituated to living in and around human development because they realize that many of their natural predators are less inclined to follow them into such areas.

In general, I don't think coyote are bad for our local ecosystem.  They do fulfill a predator role that would otherwise be mostly vacant here in the northeast.  I do think they affect other animals populations, some more than others.  This is no different from predators in other parts of North America; upon reintroduction, wolves had a pretty dramatic effect on the various ungulates in the Yellowstone area.  Predator pressure has been an issue for vulnerable populations of big-horned sheep in certain western states, and wolves have been an issue for the small remnant of caribou in the Pacific Northwest US (last I heard, they were on the verge of extirpation).  In those circumstances, predator management is an essential part of ongoing conservation efforts for other animal species. 

Are we at that point with coyote here in the northeast?  I don't think so, but it certainly is an issue to be aware of.

This is a good point. Coyotes and fishers are adapting to human settlements and thus the suburban prey base is now available to them.

We have subdivided and built in so much natural habitat, we have a huge impact. Any species that can adapt to successfully living near people will be successful. We are seeing a bunch of formerly shy bird species moving into towns and villages - ravens, merlins and pileated woodpeckers come immediately to mind. This bodes well for their success as a species.  

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Curmudgeon
typo

[Padre86]

2 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

This is a good point. Coyotes and fishers are adapting to human settlements and thus the suburban prey base is now available to them.

We have subdivided and built in so much natural habitat, we have a huge impact. Any species that can adapt to successfully living near people will be successful. We are seeing a bunch of formerly shy bird species moving into towns and villages - ravens, merlins and pileated woodpeckers come immediately to mind. This bodes well for their success as a species.  

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately,  (depending on how you look at it) I don't think the coyote will have much opportunity to expand in some suburban areas.  Too much human traffic and too little habitat for them to be comfortable in.  Moreover, once they start snatching family pets, I don't think there will be much social acceptance for them.  I see fox, and stray cats, as the main predators of the rising rodent and rabbit population in the suburbs.

The reason I brought up the human shielding issue is because it does illustrate how coyote have changed the natural landscape.  I'm much more likely to see a fox or rabbit in my own backyard than I am while out on a hike through a state park or remote wilderness of the ADK's.  That is likely due in part to the rising coyote #'s.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Padre86

[Doc]

One of the aspects of coyote predation on deer that I have always been curious about is the deer that die during a harsh winter that they don't even touch. Just the running of deer in deep snow or crusted snow when temperatures are bitter cold and the winter season is stretching into the spring season, is a source of stress that can turn lethal. As I listen to coyotes chasing deer across the side of the hill, I have to wonder what the cost is in valuable calories and critical fat reserves, even when they never lay a tooth on them. I have never really seen any studies on the impact, but I know that depending on the severity of the winter, many deer just barely make it and come into spring pretty close to depleted of essential fats. Yeah, we know about weather related starvation losses to the deer herd that has indeed impacted deer numbers in some areas for several seasons. What we don't know is how many of these casualties are victims of  excessive stress due to chasing during critical times in winter. Just a source of curiosity.

[chrisw]

One of the aspects of coyote predation on deer that I have always been curious about is the deer that die during a harsh winter that they don't even touch. Just the running of deer in deep snow or crusted snow when temperatures are bitter cold and the winter season is stretching into the spring season, is a source of stress that can turn lethal. As I listen to coyotes chasing deer across the side of the hill, I have to wonder what the cost is in valuable calories and critical fat reserves, even when they never lay a tooth on them. I have never really seen any studies on the impact, but I know that depending on the severity of the winter, many deer just barely make it and come into spring pretty close to depleted of essential fats. Yeah, we know about weather related starvation losses to the deer herd that has indeed impacted deer numbers in some areas for several seasons. What we don't know is how many of these casualties are victims of  excessive stress due to chasing during critical times in winter. Just a source of curiosity.

I'd sooner think people chasing them around for 3 months shooting at them does more harm to stress levels and fat reserves than coyotes do.

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[stubborn1VT]

Coyotes don't have any specific deer seasons or legal shooting hours.  The deer are usually in decent shape in Oct, Nov and Dec, but not so much in March.  I also don't think that deer have a terribly tough time avoiding hunters.  It doesn't take many calories to bed down in the thick stuff and stay still.  

I'm not bashing coyotes, but I do think they are better hunters in some ways.  I also think that they have no problem living in close proximity to humans.  I have rabbits that live around my house, but they live in/under my woodshed.  They come out at night to feed and go right back in.  Human shielding doesn't extend very far IMO. 

[Curmudgeon]

I read Doc's post and am left with nothing but questions and scepticism. Having spent much of my adult life observing and studying wild predators, I have never even heard of an adult, wild predator expending any significant amount of energy pursuing prey without the goal of obtaining a meal. Young chase things yes. Adults? Dogs chase deer and don't eat what they kill, but coyotes? Doc is the only person I have ever heard make such a claim.

I once watched a family group of coyotes stalk a group of pronghorn with young. As soon as one of the pronghorn noticed a coyote, the hunt ended. The coyotes trotted away. No wasted energy by anyone.

Of the dozen or so adult deer kills - by coyotes - that I have found, every one was at a time with deep crusted snow. Those deer weren't run, at least not more than a few feet.

I am highly sceptical of Doc's claim.