Same old issues..ar's or not

[chas0218]

1 minute ago, Stay at home Nomad said:

It should not be written so " kids" get a pass on AR's as many new hunters aren't kids . I should be written so new license holders get a pass . Perhaps your first 3 years or so,of hunting your tags are marked accordingly .

I say this because at work every year we get guys who,take it up in their 30's and 40's . I taken a couple on hunts where they got their first deer .

My daughter is 27 and this year got out twice for maybe a combined 5-6 hours , our schedules just didn't line up . She has not yet killed a buck , and thereby is exempt  from the farms rules on buck size .

Having it aged based would hurt our numbers .

I would be okay with that. I don't see where it would be bad thing after the first 3 years you would need to hold out for a bigger buck.

[dbHunterNY]

the author is blatantly against antler restrictions as a whole even though he pretends not to be. he even slipped in some evil myths about antler restrictions that have proven not to be true. also let it slip that he's concerned about antler genetics in a free range herd.  he even fabricated QDMA's stance on them. antler restrictions and one buck rule each have their place. each can and can't do certain things. it's been beaten to death and back that hunter feedback and dynamics of deer population lend itself to the conclusion OBR is best suited in some areas of western ny and ARs are the tool of choice everywhere else accept once you get up into the Adirondacks. regardless a vast majority seem to feel that with either restriction on buck harvest throughout the season, new hunters young and old should be exempt. that's the way I feel it should be and with either restriction that exemption is feasible.
DEC weighted certain things differently than others within the survey results to present their modified decision moving forward that killed the idea of either OBR or ARs, championing the idea of "no change".  I think the take away here is consistent with raw survey results, in that a majority of us are willing to accept some form of restriction and aren't truly content with "no change" for decades more.

[WNYBuckHunter]

14 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

What do you think happens in the Catskills? Not bagging an animal every time you go out or every season is the way it works. I hunted hard this bow season knowing I wouldn't have a lot of days to hunt I got skunked with one bad shot that I don't know what happened. It happens not everyone is going to get a deer regardless of what laws are set forth. I have hunted state land for a long time along with private land, do I prefer my private land yes who doesn't? I have had success on state land but you need to do your homework, state land isn't harder to hunt just harder to pattern the humans that hunt it and use it to your advantage. Either way you are going to need to put your time in it isn't an easy sport and I think people that first get into hear about all the success individuals have then expect to be able to walk into the field and have that same success fresh off the bus or not.

This year was my first year hunting my own property I had no idea of deer travel, bedding areas or anything. Huge amount of unknown but I managed to kill a deer the last day of gun season. I hunted all season to get 2 shots about 80 hours total in stand to get 2 shots on a property I knew nothing about learning each sit I had. Not much different than what someone would have done on state land first starting out. 

Dont compare yourself to someone that is just starting out, thats two completely different things.

As far as not getting a deer every year, Im not saying people new to the game should expect to get a deer every single year, let alone everytime they go hunting, but if you are mandating that the guy that just started hunting at 30 years old has no right to shoot the same buck that a 17 year old that just started hunting does, how is that right?

Just for the record, I am 150% completely against any mandatory ARs.

[Dom]

Ars are for headhunters unlike fishing you cast a line and wait for a bite on your line and not sure what will bite/with hunting you have a choice if the deer isn't the one you want then do not shoot/pull the trigger.Too myself hunting is not just a Sport it also helps feed the family.Some Hunters only gun hunt so why should they not be able to shoot a doe they should have the choice wait for big/large rack or kill a doe I say lets change regular season tag to either sex and only be able to shoot bucks with bow/muzzle loader

[dbHunterNY]

2 hours ago, Storm914 said:

I was talking about on state land acually .

On private land it is different you have  enough acreage the deer never leave  you're probably anyway .

in Mississippi the state record was being contested by a buck shot in a management area open to the public that has antler restrictions and self in manned check-in stations. private land isn't the ones that'd benefit the most from it.  it's the tracts with much smaller private land parcels and public land that'd see more improvement and benefit. I can talk to my neighbors to get a sense of being on the same page. someone hunting public land has no idea if the next guy or another in the area will pass any deer, for whatever reason, as any deer is really fair game in NY.

Edited December 18, 2017 by dbHunterNY

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

 he even fabricated QDMA's stance on them.

No he didnt.

https://www.qdma.com/qdmas-position-mandatory-antler-restrictions/

" In general, QDMA prefers the voluntary passing of yearling bucks to mandatory antler regulations. However, we recognize that antler restrictions may be justified in some situations to achieve specific deer management objectives. Regarding our position on specific antler restriction proposals, QDMA examines each on a case-by-case basis and applies a three-part test. "

[chas0218]

Just now, WNYBuckHunter said:

Dont compare yourself to someone that is just starting out, thats two completely different things.

As far as not getting a deer every year, Im not saying people new to the game should expect to get a deer every single year, let alone everytime they go hunting, but if you are mandating that the guy that just started hunting at 30 years old has no right to shoot the same buck that a 17 year old that just started hunting does, how is that right?

Just for the record, I am 150% completely against any mandatory ARs.

I get it stay@homenomad had a great idea and I wouldn't mind that either. If they are getting an opportunity at harvesting a 4 point or spike then they are doing something right and they should be able to kill a 3 on one side buck. I'm all for AR's if implemented correctly, I don't want to see what happened in PA when they were first implemented.

Here is what I would recommend to DEC

• AR's 3 on one side
• No either sex put all doe harvest opportunities into the lottery to actually control doe harvests.
• 1 buck rule

[dbHunterNY]

4 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

No he didnt.

https://www.qdma.com/qdmas-position-mandatory-antler-restrictions/

" In general, QDMA prefers the voluntary passing of yearling bucks to mandatory antler regulations. However, we recognize that antler restrictions may be justified in some situations to achieve specific deer management objectives. Regarding our position on specific antler restriction proposals, QDMA examines each on a case-by-case basis and applies a three-part test. "

exactly my point. that's not what he typed. what he did type wasn't really the whole truth and nothing but the truth. you cherry pick part of something and present it on it's own and it doesn't retain the same meaning.

there's also a set of criteria that QDMA requires outside of that statement that warrants the acceptance of antler restrictions, mandatory or otherwise.

Edited December 18, 2017 by dbHunterNY

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 minute ago, chas0218 said:

I get it stay@homenomad had a great idea and I wouldn't mind that either. If they are getting an opportunity at harvesting a 4 point or spike then they are doing something right and they should be able to kill a 3 on one side buck. I'm all for AR's if implemented correctly, I don't want to see what happened in PA when they were first implemented.

Here is what I would recommend to DEC

• AR's 3 on one side
• No either sex put all doe harvest opportunities into the lottery to actually control doe harvests.
• 1 buck rule

Im right with ya on the second and third things, but 3 on a side isnt going to save many yearling bucks around here anyway, so why bother? Every year I have pics of multiple 1 1/2 year olds with 4 points on at least one side. Take the option of spikes and forks away from the guys that dont care, and the first legal buck they are most likely going to see will be the 6,7,8 or more point 1 1/2 year olds. You know, the ones with the most potential. Its a setup for high grading IMO, and teaches them little to nothing about how to tell an older buck from a younger one. I would much rather see the DEC make an educational push, maybe spend more time in the hunters safety course talking about the basics of aging deer on the hoof, and the benefits of letting younger deer go. JMO.

[wolc123]

22 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Being a slob doesnt just mean you injure deer and/or not recover them. Its about safety and ethics. Taking shots at ranges further than you have practiced, taking low percentage shots (like up the ass), not completely identifying a target, etc etc etc. If you are admitting to crap like that, I can only imagine what you do and keep to yourself.

How certain do you need to be of making a clean kill when you release an arrow or pull the trigger ?   My number is 90 %. 

The Texas-Heart shot, to which you refer, I judged at about 95%.  I was certain of the kill but had some doubts about the "clean" part. Fortunately The Man upstairs aligned that buck perfectly so that the guts came out as clean as a whistle.   Hitting  3/4" diameter circle on a standing buck at 50 yards, with a scoped 30/06, from a rest, is a "chip" shot.   That is true even if the bullet had to hit a few "deer chips" on the way up thru the heart and neck.  That rifle consistently holds a 3/4" group at 100 yards from a rest.

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by wolc123

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

exactly my point. that's not what he typed. what he did type wasn't really the whole truth and nothing but the truth. you cherry pick part of something and present it on it's own and it doesn't retain the same meaning.

there's also a set of criteria that QDMA requires outside of that statement that warrants the acceptance of antler restrictions, mandatory or otherwise.

Yes I know what the criteria is, but he wasnt cherry picking anything, he was summing it up.

[Dom]

Get rid of ars and hunt the deer you want.If you have the tags and legal  to hunt than do so and stop telling others how or what they should shoot/I hunt because I want to and enjoy doing so I didn't shoot any this season but the 1/2 a doe that was giving to me is still a win

[Nomad]

For the record I'm not for manditory AR's , we're improving now with education  .  Only 5% of deer hunters kill two,bucks , so I don't see much of a gain there either . 

[Hunter007]

I don't know about AR, I think I will just take my chances with shooting any legal deer I can  . Why ?you cant eat horn.  And older deer don't taste as good anyway. And if I want more of a challenge with older bigger deer I will take my chances in a place like the Adirondacks .

Edited December 18, 2017 by Storm914

[WNYBuckHunter]

Just now, wolc123 said:

How certain do you need to be of making a clean kill when you release an arrow or pull the trigger ?   My number is 90 %. 

The Texas-Heart shot, to which you refer, I judged at about 95%.  I was certain of the kill but had some doubts about the "clean" part.   Hitting  3/4" diameter circle on a standing buck at 50 yards, with a scoped 30/06, from a rest, is a "chip" shot.   That is true even if the bullet had to hit a few "deer chips" on the way up thru the heart and neck.  That rifle consistently holds a 3/4" group at 100 yards from a rest.

 

Your numbers are nonsense. Had that deer moved just a tad, been at an angle you misjudged or something else, it could have been a different result. Im not saying you have to wait for a perfect broadside shot every time, Ive shot my fair share with quartering to angles with a gun, Ive killed running deer, but a texas heart shot is low percentage from the get go. Im not going to try and justify my point by throwing arbitrary numbers into the conversation.

[dbHunterNY]

6 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I get it stay@homenomad had a great idea and I wouldn't mind that either. If they are getting an opportunity at harvesting a 4 point or spike then they are doing something right and they should be able to kill a 3 on one side buck. I'm all for AR's if implemented correctly, I don't want to see what happened in PA when they were first implemented.

Here is what I would recommend to DEC

• AR's 3 on one side
• No either sex put all doe harvest opportunities into the lottery to actually control doe harvests.
• 1 buck rule

ARs have to be tailored to the specific area and what's harvested there to achieve the same goals throughout NY state.  for example the AR would be ideal here, but people would hang you at the idea of limiting them to one buck. out in portions of western NY 3 on one side would do very little for results exception add restriction that'd piss people off. it has to be different for different areas.

while I agree with the second one about the doe it'd be beneficial to limit it to having one antlerless tag good for anywhere in NY and the rest lottery.  that would allow some to flexibility to take advantage of opportunity they might get to hunt elsewhere unplanned but have more controlled and closely monitored doe harvest.

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 minutes ago, Stay at home Nomad said:

For the record I'm not for manditory AR's , we're improving now with education  .  Only 5% of deer hunters kill two,bucks , so I don't see much of a gain there either . 

Where I see the gain in a one buck rule, would be the guys that shoot the first buck they see and then "trophy hunt" with the second buck tag. It might make them be more choosy about the buck they kill, without mandating that they kill a certain size deer.

[chas0218]

1 minute ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Im right with ya on the second and third things, but 3 on a side isnt going to save many yearling bucks around here anyway, so why bother? Every year I have pics of multiple 1 1/2 year olds with 4 points on at least one side. Take the option of spikes and forks away from the guys that dont care, and the first legal buck they are most likely going to see will be the 6,7,8 or more point 1 1/2 year olds. You know, the ones with the most potential. Its a setup for high grading IMO, and teaches them little to nothing about how to tell an older buck from a younger one. I would much rather see the DEC make an educational push, maybe spend more time in the hunters safety course talking about the basics of aging deer on the hoof, and the benefits of letting younger deer go. JMO.

I know it won't save all the yearling but the majority it will. Especially after the 2nd and 3rd year of AR's you will have a lot more people passing the "basket rack" 1.5 year olds with the higher number of 2.5 year olds. After the first couple years those that are "meat hunters" will also benefit being able to take the first 2.5 year old that walks in front of them with more meat on the bone than that 1.5 year old. There isn't any program out there that would save all yearlings you and I both know that. If you lumped the state together as a whole it would definitely save more yearling bucks than a 1 buck rule or something similar. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 minute ago, chas0218 said:

If you lumped the state together as a whole it would definitely save more yearling bucks than a 1 buck rule or something similar. 

I dont think that at all. See my reply to stay at home nomad above.

[Dom]

How many would only hunt Does if they made that the rule?I would for sure as well as many that I know that hunt!

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 minute ago, Dom said:

How many would only hunt Does if they made that the rule?I would for sure as well as many that I know that hunt!

I would for sure.

[Nomad]

3 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Where I see the gain in a one buck rule, would be the guys that shoot the first buck they see and then "trophy hunt" with the second buck tag. It might make them be more choosy about the buck they kill, without mandating that they kill a certain size deer.

That makes sense, I do know guys like that . In fact nephew from out of state said that to me after seeing my small buck this year .

Myself I generally kill a decent one in bow, then have self imposed rule of any gun buck much be much larger , than hasn't happened In so,many years I can't name the year .

[dbHunterNY]

1 minute ago, Dom said:

How many would only hunt Does if they made that the rule?I would for sure as well as many that I know that hunt!

made it what, doe only? i'd still hunt 100%, most years that's all I shoot anyway.  Many areas of NY couldn't support that rule though.

[chas0218]

14 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Where I see the gain in a one buck rule, would be the guys that shoot the first buck they see and then "trophy hunt" with the second buck tag. It might make them be more choosy about the buck they kill, without mandating that they kill a certain size deer.

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to single you out. I appreciate you responding to my posts and I'm not trying to start an argument with you directly just expressing my opinion on the matter. I wasn't sure if I was coming off as a D*ck.

 

15 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

ARs have to be tailored to the specific area and what's harvested there to achieve the same goals throughout NY state.  for example the AR would be ideal here, but people would hang you at the idea of limiting them to one buck. out in portions of western NY 3 on one side would do very little for results exception add restriction that'd piss people off. it has to be different for different areas.

while I agree with the second one about the doe it'd be beneficial to limit it to having one antlerless tag good for anywhere in NY and the rest lottery.  that would allow some to flexibility to take advantage of opportunity they might get to hunt elsewhere unplanned but have more controlled and closely monitored doe harvest.

Really no matter what you do there are going to be a lot of pissed off individuals. It would definitely need to be tailored to individual areas if it is like WNYbuckhunter said it wouldn't do much in his area maybe 4 would be better but in all the yearlings would be given a bye for 1 season at which point next season they are free game. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by chas0218

[chas0218]

7 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I dont think that at all. See my reply to stay at home nomad above.

Yeah I just saw that, if it is truly like that in other parts of the state then it would need to be tailored to certain areas or use a 4 point rule. Either way there are ways of implementing it to work.