The future of deer hunting

[goosifer]

I was inspired to start this thread based upon an exchange I had with Four Seasons Whitetails in the "Wonderful quote from the late Charlie Alsheimer" thread. See Post 1 and Post 2.

I don't necessarily agree with everything he said, but I am not in a position to comment on the veracity of his statements. I've started doing some further research on the subject, and will share my findings here for further discussion and debate. From my perspective, it will be a work in progress/diary of sorts, as I add more links and information.

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One article I've come across so far is a Q&A with Gordon Wittingdon, the Editor of North American Whitetails magazine for 8/21/17. Some of his comments were similar to what 4SW said:

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Q: I think it's pretty obvious that most people are obsessed with giant bucks. From what you've seen, has it always been that way, or was there a time-frame where things started shifting towards a fascination with large antlered bucks?

Gordon: Cave paintings from 20,000 years ago suggest people were fascinated by large antlers even then. I think it might even be in our DNA. That's not to say antler fever hasn't really grown in the modern era though. When North American Whitetail began in '82, most folks were still pretty much "meat" hunters. They liked big deer but didn't know much at all about them and didn't think they were something to focus on. Of course, a lack of big deer in your hunting area will reinforce that notion, and back then there weren't nearly as many mature bucks as now. 

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Q: If you had to project, what do you think deer hunting will look like in the future? Do you see it going in a positive direction?

Gordon: Access will keep getting harder and more expensive. That's just a fact of life in a supply and demand world . . . .

The full article is here: HOW DEER HUNTING HAS CHANGED AND ITS FUTURE - A Q&A WITH GORDON WHITTINGTON

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This view of the future saddens me. It seems to me that a lot of potential future hunters will get priced out of the market (reminds me of the housing market) or get frustrated and quit when they can't get the big buck like they see on TV. But if that is what they are taught to value . . . .

I hope I'm wrong.

[dmandoes]

everyone puts a different value on the animals and the hunts. some think they pay to much for their license and others spend $1000s on food plots, land,  leases, and tags. the ones that put a higher value on it r going to hunt and the ones that dont will drop out.  hunters r going fall in #s.  

[Robhuntandfish]

Well I do agree with part of this.  Access will continue to be a problem and leasing and buying and even renting land for hunting will increase.

I also think the general public will continue to become more and more negative to hunting.  Due to several reasons. 

The experience of many in the outdoors is decreasing as children just are not inot the outdoors as people once were.  Video games are the choice of free time and can be accessed anytime in any weather. How many kids do you even see outside on a snow day anymore? Etc

Less of a need for hunting as food source, the decline of a young hunter base and just am overall decline in outdoor and more primitive sports.  Look even the NFL is on a decline, violence based sports and hunting will continue to have more people look down on it as less people are in the outdoors or have an understanding of it.  Also the increase of restrictions on firearms and the uneasiness to outright fear many people have for them.  Less people have the need to hunt for food and more people don't think there isnt a need for a firearm then other than to do bad things with it. 

As far as antler obsession.  I think in all sports there is a note of competition, but in hunting a lot of it is a competition within a person if they have the ability. Of course a hunter wants to bag the big buck, that's just natural. But I don't think it should be labeled as an obsession. Just look at the list of dream trips on this site in another thread. The minority of them reflect monster 200 inch whitetails and more are for the experience.  Most of us hunt just for that, the experiences we grew up with and the enjoyment of wild places and experiences. Just like anything else if you have a chance at a big buck ypur going to try for it, but I already know that my chance of getting one is very slim, yet it doesn't make me want to hunt less.  Most people that go after these larger whitetails have the ability and means to do so.  So why wouldn't they. But to say the number one thing is antler size is missing out on the fact that it is just enjoyable.   A day out fishing and getting a limit is of course a great day but it's not what got me up and put the door to go.  It was for the experience and enjoyment and the take was secondary.  Just because I would like to take a big buck doesn't mean I have to to enjoy it.

[Just Lucky]

I will spend more time and money for hunting deer than I should because I like it and its my choice. I do not want to pay more for a license. When I spend money on a license it isn't really a choice and it doesn't get used for the resource it is intended for

48 minutes ago, dmandoes said:

everyone puts a different value on the animals and the hunts. some think they pay to much for their license and others spend $1000s on food plots, land,  leases, and tags. the ones that put a higher value on it r going to hunt and the ones that dont will drop out.  hunters r going fall in #s.  

 

[dmandoes]

22 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

I will spend more time and money for hunting deer than I should because I like it and its my choice. I do not want to pay more for a license. When I spend money on a license it isn't really a choice and it doesn't get used for the resource it is intended for

 

r u going to drop out because of the license cost? no, u put a higher value on hunting. others will drop out because they dont want to pay it. its not worth it to them. 

[Just Lucky]

3 minutes ago, dmandoes said:

r u going to drop out because of the license cost? no, u put a higher value on hunting. others will drop out because they dont want to pay it. its not worth it to them. 

Nope I will bit**, whine and moan.

[TreeGuy]

Not sure where this thread will go, but after reading the OP you mentioned that hunter numbers will fall and that new hunters will quit because they didn't get a TV sized buck. Come on. First off, if you can't hack difficult tasks in life and you just quit what does that say for your character regardless if it's hunting or sports etc. If you had no knowledge of deer hunting and the only research you did before you started was to watch sportsmen channel than Shane on you. You hunt a few weekends and quit because you didn't see a 180" than shame on you. But let's look at it on a different angle. Maybe it's shame on US. Sitting here debating hunter numbers and posting that you would be dissapointed if they fall.... Maybe we should be mentoring. Maybe we need to reach out on social media or take other avenues to locate young hunters and do our part to educate. Think off all the hours we all have e spent on stand, preparation,scouting etc. Think of all we have learned from each other. We are looking at this like the future generation will ruin our sport because they will quit, or be over competitive about antlers, bash us and other hunters who don't kill a TV buck. Maybe we need to explain how it "was" and how it "could be" in the future instead of bashing the bashers. Im on a rant here but I feel like WE hold a portion of the future too, and mentoring, teaching, explaining, coaching, showing etc can create comrodery amongst new hunters and make the sport more enjoyable for all. Face it, if a kid wants to start hunting and is after big bones he's gonna need encouragement and guidance, not an explanation about how BB are the best way to fill a tag. Middle ground is needed. Understanding is needed. Less judgment and the idea that your style of hunting is THE way.

This post was not directed at anyone specific, more or less at the group. You guys prob know I chase matures, but I hope I have always come across as open minded about other styles of hunting and never bad mouthed anyone for having a different style than me. My one and only deer hunting partner has whacked more BB than I care to admit yet I'll have some amazing memories that I wouldn't change for the world. When pops is gone I will wish he was there calling me on the phone telling me to get the Kubota cause he's got one down. I wouldnt care if it had spots if it meant one more memory with him in the deer woods. Point being, I hunt with a MEAT hunter so I have 2 different views into hunting but he encourages me and I congratulate him. Consider that for a minute knowing we are hunting small tracts of land within yards of each other. It's on us to help ensure the sports longevity.

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[goosifer]

30 minutes ago, TreeGuy said:

Not sure where this thread will go, but after reading the OP you mentioned that hunter numbers will fall and that new hunters will quit because they didn't get a TV sized buck . . . . 
 

I reread what I wrote, and what I should have wrote/what I intended to communicate was ",if the above is true, I worry that . . ." I can't go back and edit it now; hope you take my word for it. Note, I did precede what I said with This view of the future . . . .

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Maybe we should be mentoring. Maybe we need to reach out on social media or take other avenues to locate young hunters and do our part to educate. 

I agree with that sentiment, and have an article about that I will share next from QDMA.

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We are looking at this like the future generation will ruin our sport because they will quit, . . .

That is not how I feel, and I hope I didn't give you that impression. I am much more concerned about the future generation of [potential] hunters, the people, and what they might lose out on, than the the "sport" itself.

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Maybe we need to explain how it "was" and how it "could be" in the future instead of bashing the bashers.

I'm not clear on what you are saying, but I hope you don't think I was bashing anyone/anything.

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. . .  I feel like WE hold a portion of the future too, and mentoring, teaching, explaining, coaching, showing etc can create comrodery amongst new hunters and make the sport more enjoyable for all.

I very much agree with and support this sentiment.

[TreeGuy]

"This post was not directed at anyone specific, more or less at the group."

I was not calling you out.... At all. More or less gathering bits from this and other threads.

I see your point and I hope you see mine !

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[nybuckboy]

I think land access will have the biggest affect on the future of hunting. I know for myself I have for the most part been fortunate to have access to land a good share of my life.  The past 20 years has been the best. The past 4 season I have been fortunate to have my own land to hunt. The previous 16 seasons I had access to and for much of those years access to about 200 acres. Although I had my share of headaches including have stands stolen and other hunters who I don't share the same way of hunting it was a nice piece to have access to and it was across the road from my house so even better and convenient. 

I truly think more and more hunters are trying to buy their own land or via a lease tie up some land for their own sole use. More land owners won't let hunters hunt or they will lease the land to the higher bidder. 

This combined with young people not caring about hunting and the anti gun sentiment I think the future of hunting is not good.

[Jdubs]

Living in Saratoga County, I can vouch for access being a challenge.  Land is being developed rapidly and taxes sure aren't getting cheaper.  If I want to hunt good public land, that will take a lot of travel time and miles.  Doable, but not ideal unless I want to purely hunt the giants.  (spoiler alert: I don't)

Look, there are a 1000 reasons why I never needed to start hunting in my 40's, but I did.  The experience of being in the woods, the challenges to being successful and then ultimately sharing the harvest, that's why I do it.  I'll bring my daughter out too once she's old enough.  Does this make me the exception to the overall hunting pool?

This isn't about measuring tines against some tv buck to prove if I'm worthy.  To me, it's about doing it right, to honor the animal for its sacrifice.  If I never harvested a real Booner, I could be perfectly happy hunting til my days are done.  

[goosifer]

Article: 4 Ways to Ensure the Future of Deer Hunting (4/8/16) at qdma.com by Brian Grossman

Synopsis: 

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As a passionate deer hunter, I fear there will come a day when my children or future grandchildren won’t have the opportunity to enjoy pursuing white-tailed deer the way I do. It seems with each passing year, a little more of our hunting heritage gets chipped away. If that day does come, however, it won’t be the animal rights activists, politicians or state wildlife agencies who are to blame. The only one we will be able to point the finger at is ourselves for standing by and letting it happen. Hunting is a tradition as old as man, but if we want to ensure that future generations are afforded the same opportunities to enjoy it that we have, there are a few steps we each need to take.

The author discusses four ways to ensure the future of deer hunting are:
1. Introduce someone new [both youth and adults]
2. Hunt legally and ethically
3. Stand united [with other hunters]
4. Get involved [with qdma]

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goosifer comments on article: I agree with #1 and #2. Surprised the author didn't mention the qdma Mentoring Program (will cover soon.) As we've seen on this forum, #3 is tough. I think it would be better to say to find common ground that all hunters can agree on. For #4, I think some sort of lobbying is needed. Maybe qdma would be the best as it avoids the association with guns that seems to "trigger" people. One thing the author doesn't address is the overcommercialization of deer hunting. It's like what's happened to Christmas. Need a way to counterbalance that for the next generation of hunters.

Edited January 16, 2018 by goosifer
change last sentence to not be so political

[TreeGuy]

Good read I'm in with #1-4

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[Buckmaster7600]

Deer hunters numbers are falling because there isn't instant gratification that young generations need. It's not just hunting it's all sports, I notice it on the golf course as well. Most people my age don't have the time/want to put the time and effort in. A buddy of mine from school hunts 5 days a year in Ohio with an outfitter, his reason in 5 days he's almost guaranteed a chance at a shooter and that's just not the case around home. Can't say I blame him if his only goal is shooting a nice buck.

Me I couldn't care less if I ever shoot another deer. At 30 I have killed way more than my share of nice bucks both around home "Saratoga county" and in the ADK's. I don't care about eating venison my drive is shooting mature bucks. Even that has gotten to the point where the light is fading, I tried making it harder by using different weapons and after killing them with bows, pistols and flintlocks that doesn't even get me riled up the way it used to. I don't waste my tags/time shooting small bucks or does. I go to Ohio and PA to spend time with friends and don't care about the hunting but it's something to do when I'm there.

Hunting to me is just what I do but the hunt means way more to me than the kill.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

6 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Deer hunters numbers are falling because there isn't instant gratification that young generations need. It's not just hunting it's all sports, I notice it on the golf course as well. Most people my age don't have the time/want to put the time and effort in. A buddy of mine from school hunts 5 days a year in Ohio with an outfitter, his reason in 5 days he's almost guaranteed a chance at a shooter and that's just not the case around home. Can't say I blame him if his only goal is shooting a nice buck.

Me I couldn't care less if I ever shoot another deer. At 30 I have killed way more than my share of nice bucks both around home "Saratoga county" and in the ADK's. I don't care about eating venison my drive is shooting mature bucks. Even that has gotten to the point where the light is fading, I tried making it harder by using different weapons and after killing them with bows, pistols and flintlocks that doesn't even get me riled up the way it used to. I don't waste my tags/time shooting small bucks or does. I go to Ohio and PA to spend time with friends and don't care about the hunting but it's something to do when I'm there.

Hunting to me is just what I do but the hunt means way more to me than the kill.


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This is what happen's when a person matures as a real hunter at its truest form. After one kills so many deer its not real tough anymore and you have to raise the bar and that bar is age and inches.   Does not take much of a 'Hunter' to go out and shoot fawns and yearlings. Now if half of these guys that call themselves so called hunters had to hunt in areas where they could only kill mature bucks you would see them fold like a cheap suit after a couple of years.   There are hunters and then there are guys that sit in the woods and kill deer.

Dont see to many wanting to respond to the Op's real questions?

[goosifer]

I was trying to find out more about qdma's Mentored Hunting Program, and ended up coming across Hunting Heritage Action plan at http://huntingheritage.org/ which has a database of various "hunting heritage/hunting mentoring" programs across the county. There are also some "hunting access programs".Looks like it is trying to address the issues mentioned above head on. It is put together by the Wildlife Management Institute, et al

From their website:
 

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The Wildlife Management Institute (WMI) with assistance from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (AFWA) is in the process of developing a Hunting Heritage Action Plan (Action Plan). The plan will provide a strategic framework to enhance the effectiveness of current hunting heritage activities; and to stimulate development of new activities that will contribute to this overall effort. This effort is being supported by numerous non-government conservation organizations (NGOs).

Are there any forum members that are involved in any sort of hunting heritage/hunting mentoring programs?

[Buckmaster7600]

This is what happen's when a person matures as a real hunter at its truest form. After one kills so many deer its not real tough anymore and you have to raise the bar and that bar is age and inches.   Does not take much of a 'Hunter' to go out and shoot fawns and yearlings. Now if half of these guys that call themselves so called hunters had to hunt in areas where they could only kill mature bucks you would see them fold like a cheap suit after a couple of years.   There are hunters and then there are guys that sit in the woods and kill deer.
Dont see to many wanting to respond to the Op's real questions?

I don't totally agree with you, I miss the days when my blood pressure would rise at the sight of horns. These days I don't lift my bow of the hook and my pulse doesn't change for deer that many NY hunters would have mounted. These days I usually come up with excuses why not to shoot a deer. I miss the old days when I would shake over any horns.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I don't totally agree with you, I miss the days when my blood pressure would rise at the sight of horns. These days I don't lift my bow of the hook and my pulse doesn't change for deer that many NY hunters would have mounted. These days I usually come up with excuses why not to shoot a deer. I miss the old days when I would shake over any horns.


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Same here. But i still have the 'Rise" when i 'Hunt' and find one of the mature bucks i am 'Hunting". To harvest one of those bucks just makes it sweeter. My bar has risen to...I have to find the mature bucks in my area and hunt and harvest only those bucks or one as big or mature that happens to move in.  A lot of this happens on state land open to anyone so it even makes the game a little tougher.

Most guys at camp look at my phone of the bucks i just watch and let walk and say i'm nut's.  Many will never feel the real rise and feel of their knees shaking at the sight of a big mature buck.  

[goosifer]

25 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

. . . Me I couldn't care less if I ever shoot another deer . . . .

Does your apathy extend to the future of deer hunting, then? Do you care whether or not future generations have the opportunity to experience hunting the way you did?

[Buckmaster7600]

Same here. But i still have the 'Rise" when i 'Hunt' and find one of the mature bucks i am 'Hunting". To harvest one of those bucks just makes it sweeter. My bar has risen to...I have to find the mature bucks in my area and hunt and harvest only those bucks or one as big or mature that happens to move in.  A lot of this happens on state land open to anyone so it even makes the game a little tougher.

Most guys at camp look at my phone of the bucks i just watch and let walk and say i'm nut's.  Many will never feel the real rise and feel of their knees shaking at the sight of a big mature buck.  

 

We have different styles of hunting but most of mine is also done on public land. The thrill of my hunting is being on the track of a mature buck and knowing I'm going mono e mono against a mature buck in their element where he feels safe. When I track and kill a mature buck I still get the "high", unfortunately I don't get that high around home anymore and very rarely in Ohio because it's not nearly as hard as it is in the big woods. If going out and killing a deer or filling my freezer was my goal I would have a short season and would likely give up hunting very quickly.

 

 

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[Buckmaster7600]

Does your apathy extend to the future of deer hunting, then? Do you care whether or not future generations have the opportunity to experience hunting the way you did?

Hunting Is going away whether we like it or not. 100yrs from now hunting won't even be recognizable to us. I am just as much to blame as the next guy as far as access issues my land is posted and I pay big money for my lease in Ohio. Hunting is becoming a money game, if you're not willing to pay you're going to have to be willing to travel or hunt crowded state land.

I don't care how others choose to hunt. I don't shoot small bucks but I am 100% against antler restrictions because I think hunters should be able to do what they want.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

5 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

We have different styles of hunting but most of mine is also done on public land. The thrill of my hunting is being on the track of a mature buck and knowing I'm going mono e mono against a mature buck in their element where he feels safe. When I track and kill a mature buck I still get the "high", unfortunately I don't get that high around home anymore and very rarely in Ohio because it's not nearly as hard as it is in the big woods. If going out and killing a deer or filling my freezer was my goal I would have a short season and would likely give up hunting very quickly.

 

 

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Yeah i have been saying that for years. The ones that say they get a big rise out of any deer has never had a true big racked mature buck in their sight. I have helped 2 guys get their first 120 inch plus buck in bow season on the park and neither one of them will kill a smaller buck again. They said that feeling was the only feeling they want when it comes to hunting and they are not tapping out early with a small buck and totally end their chance at that real feeling again. They shoot does at will for their freezers.

[gjs4]

The biggest uppercut I’ve heard lately was was with regard to the eminent spread of cwd. As the cdc does not recommend the human consumption of cwd positive meat- it is either a disease risk accepted or killing for sport. Being such a small portion of the population, we are sure to be socially crushed by the majority seeing it as recreational death. Hell, all the small buck killer threads on here have the hunter crying it’s all about the meat anyway, right? This nonconsumed peaceful animal shooting has social stature, let alone ethical, beyond what can be socially steered. Granted this is solely deer related but of that paramount big game species falls it all crumbles.

Social media is cancer eating at this regardless. Whether it’s infighting, trophy relegation or some wounded animal, Speer killing, glock hunter crap.... it just sway the big crowd against the lesser.

Game agencies have no clout or funding anymore. We are the forgotten revenue stream for all things biology/ecology in the outdoors. Buying a hunting license here gives you the same great feeling as voting republican in this state.

It’s likely doomed. Those who feel it’s not are probably in denial of our gun laws and posting haneous kill pics on FB saying “it’s my right”. Get kids into the outdoors, not with some candy grab youth season but with the whole years worth of activities. Stop crying about the way things used to be and learn and embrace change. It’s a privilege that’s fleeting- embrace, enjoy, encourage.


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[goosifer]

6 minutes ago, gjs4 said:

The biggest uppercut I’ve heard lately was was with regard to the eminent spread of cwd. As the cdc does not recommend the human consumption of cwd positive meat- it is either a disease risk accepted or killing for sport. Being such a small portion of the population, we are sure to be socially crushed by the majority seeing it as recreational death. Hell, all the small buck killer threads on here have the hunter crying it’s all about the meat anyway, right? This nonconsumed peaceful animal shooting has social stature, let alone ethical, beyond what can be socially steered. Granted this is solely deer related but of that paramount big game species falls it all crumbles.

Social media is cancer eating at this regardless. Whether it’s infighting, trophy relegation or some wounded animal, Speer killing, glock hunter crap.... it just sway the big crowd against the lesser.

Game agencies have no clout or funding anymore. We are the forgotten revenue stream for all things biology/ecology in the outdoors. Buying a hunting license here gives you the same great feeling as voting republican in this state.

It’s likely doomed. Those who feel it’s not are probably in denial of our gun laws and posting haneous kill pics on FB saying “it’s my right”. Get kids into the outdoors, not with some candy grab youth season but with the whole years worth of activities. Stop crying about the way things used to be and learn and embrace change. It’s a privilege that’s fleeting- embrace, enjoy, encourage.


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gjs4, any thoughts on to what extent the issues you raise are specific to NYS? Might there be other states that aren't as affected by these factors, for whatever reason? (Just looking for a ray of hope.)

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Its doomed now at even the young school children level.  Teachers in schools downplay gun's and the killing of animals. For every new child hunter that is into it there are 100 that are totally against it. That is why it will be a landowner only kinda thing and you will either pay for the land, Pay the other guy for use of the land or go hook up at your local hunting ranch in the future.

Funny 186 views and very few comments?  Where are all the big dogs comments over here that post so freely on Charlies thread?    Typical !!!

Edited January 16, 2018 by Real World Hunter