Speaking of Texas Heart shot

[WNYBuckHunter]

For one thing, I'm not sure where you are getting the 15 seconds thing since the pig was still very alive and very active when the film was shut off.

And also I am not sure what your problem with the "hard to watch" comment is. I personally find it difficult to watch any animal in pain, and I would hope that isn't a real hard thing for anybody to understand. That's why I am so adamant about taking only responsible high percentage shots.

Unfortunately, I could not get your attached video to play.

First, the 15 seconds is how long the video went after the pig went down. If you remove the replays of the shot and the advertizing, theres about 15 to 20 seconds of footage after the shot.

Second, take the "hard to watch" comment in its entirety (instead of yet again, cherry picking 3 words out of it to manufacture some kind of point) and answer the question.

Third, I see the author disabled embedding of the video. If you click on the link it gives you another to be able to play it on YouTube directly.

[Paula]

after reading all this i watched my video of my hog hunt. I thought because she didn't squeal and she went right down i thought what a great shot and she done even though she did still kick. i am now thinking it wasn't so good. maybe i shouldn't be saying admitting this but it will make me more aware

[WNYBuckHunter]

Almost every single animal larger than a squirrel that I have shot, gun or bow, has kicked and squirmed for a bit before dying, even with what most would call a perfect shot. It happens and is normal.

[Geno C]

like i said before i dont think he finished that pig off with his dog running around and going after the pig, that would be almost as dumb as shooting the pig in the ass...

and i never said you condone shooting a deer with a .22, i asked and you answer with a question LOL. only reason is because if you think there is nothing abnormal about shooting any animal in the ass i figured you wouldnt find anything wrong with that since you can pile a deer up very quick that was also... No reason to get defensive man you are ok with a THS and that is fine. im not changing you mind nor am i trying. i personally think its a BS shot offer and i would never consider taking it, even if i am watching that 170 class deers ass while hes walking away. call me straight but hittin things in the butt has never been my forte LOL... no offense...

[pawle76]

I think what Doc and I and some others are trying to say here is that, Yes even with great shot placement whether that be a heart or double lung shot the animal can still take a little time to expire. That's just the way it is, but these are high percentage kill shots that for me at least were taught by my father, and in my hunter saftey course 18 or so years ago to me and I would think other hunters also. For someone to willingly take a shot like THS or any other shot like that (even if it Can kill quickly) flies in the face of what a hunter should do. Botttom line period, no excuses. A mistake is something else entirely of course.

[adirondackbushwhack]

So how many of the deer you guys have shot have flopped around for 10 seconds or more after a shot to the lungs or liver or when you spined it? That pig was dying and to sit here and make assumptions about what happened after the 10 or 15 seconds it showed is pretty asinine.

I wouldn't take that shot today although I was struck by the blood lust in my youth as most have been and might have then. BUT the giggling while the animal lies suffering with no immmediate follow up shot says it all.

[adirondackbushwhack]

How typical of you Dave. Its pretty clear that I am not defending this guy, but if thats what you want to think, then go right ahead.

For all of you that are saying 15 seconds of flopping around is hard to watch, or is unethical, I ask again if its any more unethical than a deer that takes longer than that to bleed out or asphyxiate on its own blood after a lung shot?

Seeing as we are on the subject of ethically killing pigs, what say you about this? Is it ethical? I hear pigs squealing in misery....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiHmYsyVniE

Killing the game quickly is important to me. I have many fine rifles but I choose to use a .444 because it just plain knocks the crap out of them and kills vary quickly. Last year my .444 was in for repairs and I used a 25-06. I shot a nice buck with it and it went down at the shot but when I walked down to it it was still alive and so I shot it several more times in the heart and lungs to dispatch it as quickly as possible. That's why I use the .444 with it I don't have to do that it seems to do the job much quicker. Anyway I didn't like that animal suffering and i didn't think it was funny either. If they flop around for 5 seconds they're getting more lead from me.

[First-light]

When you kill something there is always the chance of prolonged agony before death. Whether it be 3 seconds or 30. Sure some shots are better than others and are more ethical. There is always that chance of the animal hanging on longer than you wish it would, whether it's flopping around or just laying there taking gasps of air. Either way, we are hunters and have to expect this when we try to take an animals life. I once dropped a buck in its tracks at 50. The shot was just above the shoulder. When I got up to the deer his eyes locked on to mine and started to kick but got no where. He stopped kicking and took about 10 deep breaths and expired. I explained the scene to my BIL and he told me you have two options, walk away (let the animal expire on its own) or put another one into its heart. Next time it's a heart or neck shot to end it quickly.

[Geno C]

i think as hunters it goes without saying that some times shots are not the greatest and even with the greatest of all shots the expire time can be prolonged given the degree of the hit or the fight left in the animal, I AM PRETTY SURE WE ALL GET THAT... However if you as a hunter have a chance to finish what you started because sometimes deer clear some distances very fast and we dont always get the chance that i get BUT if you did have the chance doing the right thing and finishing it off is what these guys i beleive are talking about. i am sure we are all aware that it takes a bit for some game to expire we get it. Its just doing what we could to speed the process up is the important thing, whether it be not taking ass shots or taking a followup shot. gun or bow...

[Doc]

First, the 15 seconds is how long the video went after the pig went down. If you remove the replays of the shot and the advertizing, theres about 15 to 20 seconds of footage after the shot.

Second, take the "hard to watch" comment in its entirety (instead of yet again, cherry picking 3 words out of it to manufacture some kind of point) and answer the question.

Third, I see the author disabled embedding of the video. If you click on the link it gives you another to be able to play it on YouTube directly.

That 15 seconds or whatever that we saw was not as long as the pig's suffering went on. You know that and anyone paying attention to what was happening in that video understood that. That is what I was commenting about when I said that it was "hard to watch". It was very obvious from the footage that just because the video was shut off, that hog still had a lot of life left in it and what I saw was not the normal death throes (the flopping around that you speak of) of a well hit animal.

As far as answering your question is concerned, I didn't think that such a ridiculous question needed to be answered. But you do seem to be confused by the ethics of these kinds of situations, so I will try to explain it to you. Of course it's not easy to answer something that is based on a bogus assumption. It isn't just 15 seconds of flopping around. That flopping involved several attempts of a fully conscious, partially paralyzed, animal to escape. Further, I have no idea how long that pig continued to suffer nor do you, but I can tell you that It had a whole lot more life in it than any deer I have ever seen shot in the heart-lung area. So when it comes to the ethical outcome of your comparison, the answer is pretty obvious. I also might add that deer that I have watched expire, pretty much died in mid-stride and then performed some involuntary kicks or unconscious spasms. I once even saw a lung-hit arrowed animal begin to resume eating just before it crashed. That's not a normal reaction, but simply an indication that a properly hit animal does not go through what that hog went through. So, take a realistic, honest, look at your own question, and you probably won't need anyone to answer it for you.

The important aspect of all this is that the difference between what the hog was going through and what a properly hit deer goes through boils down to attitudes about responsible shot selection. That's not a mystery to most hunters who have paid any attention to their hunter training courses, and I hope that all this talk about texas heart shots will not confuse any of our members who are new to hunting. I would rather they pay attention to what they learned in their hunter training courses than some BS being spouted by a couple of people here. That is the main reason I am wasting so much time on this thread. I hate to see this crap go unchallenged.

[WNYBuckHunter]

like i said before i dont think he finished that pig off with his dog running around and going after the pig, that would be almost as dumb as shooting the pig in the ass...

and i never said you condone shooting a deer with a .22, i asked and you answer with a question LOL. only reason is because if you think there is nothing abnormal about shooting any animal in the ass i figured you wouldnt find anything wrong with that since you can pile a deer up very quick that was also... No reason to get defensive man you are ok with a THS and that is fine. im not changing you mind nor am i trying. i personally think its a BS shot offer and i would never consider taking it, even if i am watching that 170 class deers ass while hes walking away. call me straight but hittin things in the butt has never been my forte LOL... no offense...

See, now your whole second part of your post is in complete contradiction to itself. Stop trying to say that I advocate the shot, as I dont at all, but I also dont deny its effectiveness. I answered the .22 question the way I did because you are doing nothing but insinuating that I condone a THS.

BTW, shooting a deer in the head with a 22 is effective.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I wouldn't take that shot today although I was struck by the blood lust in my youth as most have been and might have then. BUT the giggling while the animal lies suffering with no immmediate follow up shot says it all.

The laughing says the guy is an idiot and has no class, it does not say how long it was before the pig was finished off, which is all I was saying.

[WNYBuckHunter]

That 15 seconds or whatever that we saw was not as long as the pig's suffering went on. You know that and anyone paying attention to what was happening in that video understood that. That is what I was commenting about when I said that it was "hard to watch". It was very obvious from the footage that just because the video was shut off, that hog still had a lot of life left in it and what I saw was not the normal death throes (the flopping around that you speak of) of a well hit animal.

As far as answering your question is concerned, I didn't think that such a ridiculous question needed to be answered. But you do seem to be confused by the ethics of these kinds of situations, so I will try to explain it to you. Of course it's not easy to answer something that is based on a bogus assumption. It isn't just 15 seconds of flopping around. That flopping involved several attempts of a fully conscious, partially paralyzed, animal to escape. Further, I have no idea how long that pig continued to suffer nor do you, but I can tell you that It had a whole lot more life in it than any deer I have ever seen shot in the heart-lung area. So when it comes to the ethical outcome of your comparison, the answer is pretty obvious. I also might add that deer that I have watched expire, pretty much died in mid-stride and then performed some involuntary kicks or unconscious spasms. I once even saw a lung-hit arrowed animal begin to resume eating just before it crashed. That's not a normal reaction, but simply an indication that a properly hit animal does not go through what that hog went through. So, take a realistic, honest, look at your own question, and you probably won't need anyone to answer it for you.

The important aspect of all this is that the difference between what the hog was going through and what a properly hit deer goes through boils down to attitudes about responsible shot selection. That's not a mystery to most hunters who have paid any attention to their hunter training courses, and I hope that all this talk about texas heart shots will not confuse any of our members who are new to hunting. I would rather they pay attention to what they learned in their hunter training courses than some BS being spouted by a couple of people here. That is the main reason I am wasting so much time on this thread. I hate to see this crap go unchallenged.

You are just assuming as to what happened after the camera went off, and thats my point.

Let me give you an example of a situation I have had happen a few times while deer hunting. A doe starts out across a field, I stop her with a whistle or grunt, take the shot, hit her in the front shoulders and she runs for a few yards before going down. Shes 100 yards out and behind a tree, so I have no way of shooting her again from my stand. She flops around while I unload my gun, lower it to the ground, grab my pack, get out of the stand, untie my gun, reload it, cross a creek, and walk to where she is so I can finish her off. Tell me, whats unethical about that? I assure you, it took longer than 20 seconds to finish her off.

Heres another. A doe comes out, is feeding and slightly quartering to my stand. I take the shot, direct double lung shot. She drops in her tracks, and then starts flopping around. Im 50yards away and not about to start slinging bullets at a deer thats flopping erratically. Same process, unload gun, lower to ground, grab pack, get out of stand, cross creek and walk over to her, all while she is flopping from a high percentage shot. Took more than 20 seconds. Unethical?

Situation number 3. Doe comes out at 30 yards, calmly feeding. I take a head shot with a scope. Deer drops in its tracks, never even flinches. Is that unethical?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh, and at what point did that hog go back to feeding?

[Paulie]

This seems like ciber bulling......maybe i should call the hotline!! Enough is enough, get over it! You guys keep going back and forth like you are in the 3rd grade........and i only read half the posts becasue this is just a battle between the two of you. Go have a shoot off and see who is better after 5 shots at 100 yards...whomever has the best grouping wins. Settle it like men!! haha

[WNYBuckHunter]

Nah, its just a discussion, hasnt been any name throwing yet. Give it another page or two

[Doc]

You are just assuming as to what happened after the camera went off, and thats my point.

Let me give you an example of a situation I have had happen a few times while deer hunting. A doe starts out across a field, I stop her with a whistle or grunt, take the shot, hit her in the front shoulders and she runs for a few yards before going down. Shes 100 yards out and behind a tree, so I have no way of shooting her again from my stand. She flops around while I unload my gun, lower it to the ground, grab my pack, get out of the stand, untie my gun, reload it, cross a creek, and walk to where she is so I can finish her off. Tell me, whats unethical about that? I assure you, it took longer than 20 seconds to finish her off.

Heres another. A doe comes out, is feeding and slightly quartering to my stand. I take the shot, direct double lung shot. She drops in her tracks, and then starts flopping around. Im 50yards away and not about to start slinging bullets at a deer thats flopping erratically. Same process, unload gun, lower to ground, grab pack, get out of stand, cross creek and walk over to her, all while she is flopping from a high percentage shot. Took more than 20 seconds. Unethical?

Situation number 3. Doe comes out at 30 yards, calmly feeding. I take a head shot with a scope. Deer drops in its tracks, never even flinches. Is that unethical?

Apparently you don't see any difference between an animal that is basically dead and simply reacting with unconscious spasms vs. a partially paralyzed suffering critter that is in obvious pain for who-the-heck knows how long. Undoubtedly a lot longer than your assumed 20 seconds judging from the obvious action just before the camera was shut off. And you know, that kind of suffering will happen occasionally from accidental mistakes, even with good broadside lung opportunities mistakes can be made. But there is no call for upping the odds of that sort of thing by intentionally taking some sort of goofy shot, trying to thread the poopchute. like I said before, there is no need to choose the smallest lethal target on an animal.

Oh, and as far as your head shot, I shot a deer a few years back that was the victim of someone elses attempt at a head shot. Lol.... lets call this "situation number 4". Only this one didn't just go down. Instead it's lower jaw was blown off and was swinging like a piece of blown up steak. If he had not happened to come across in front of me where I put him down with a single shot to the lungs, he most likely would have died a pretty slow death of starvation. Again, another poor choice in shot selection where someone went for the smallest lethal area. Is that the sort of thing we want to be promoting on this site? Thank heavens for mandatory hunter training classes where new hunters are told the right way to do things instead of leaving it all up to the crazy BS that is spread around on the internet. I just hope the training sticks a little better for them than it did for some here.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I am perfectly capable of telling the difference between an animal twitching and flinching with involuntary spasms while its dying and an animal flopping around, holding its head up and making distress bleats, which is what the deer were doing between the time I shot them and finished them off.

The head shot was an example of a hypothetical. I should have worded it better, my bad.

None the less, all three examples were direct questions, and you danced around answering any of them and went on another one of your lengthy diatribes filled with more examples, falsities and assumptions. Typical spin DOCtor tactics.

[Doc]

I am perfectly capable of telling the difference between an animal twitching and flinching with involuntary spasms while its dying and an animal flopping around, holding its head up and making distress bleats, which is what the deer were doing between the time I shot them and finished them off.

The head shot was an example of a hypothetical. I should have worded it better, my bad.

None the less, all three examples were direct questions, and you danced around answering any of them and went on another one of your lengthy diatribes filled with more examples, falsities and assumptions. Typical spin DOCtor tactics.

Well, all I can say is learn to shoot straighter and that won't happen. In all my years of hunting, the only time that I have seen a deer exhibit the behavior that you are now describing was deer that have been spine hit. And yes, they will carry on very similar to what you described and what that hog was doing in that video, and most of them will not die quickly without a second shot. And that is not something pretty to look at either and is clearly a case of good shot selection with poor execution (which can happen easy enough even without trying foolish low percentage shots).

I thought your questions were rhetorical and asked just for effect. I didn't think that you would seriously be so confused about the ethics of hunting that you would seriously ask that kind of a question and actual need an answer. But since you do seem to be confused, let me just say that I don't think I would say that someone who has done all in their power to accomplish a quick humane kill has performed an unethical act. Those that insist on taking goofy, un-recommended, risky, shots well........ that's a different story.

By the way just for the record, the examples I gave were factual events whether you feel uncomfortable with what they illustrate or not. They were not hypotheticals or "falsities". Perhaps I should question the truth of your little examples (fact or hypotheticals or something else), but I think we can do without that kind of foolishness.

And maybe you should read some of that lengthy diatribe for a change. You just might learn a little something. I know that stuff proves inconvenient to your point of view, and it's a lot easier to talk about your favorite little buzz-words and trite phrases of spin this and cherry-pick that, but really, another viewpoint really won't hurt you.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Lets see, I told you one deer was a shoulder hit and the other was double lung. I did spine a deer the second year I bowhunted, so I know what happened there and how the deer acted. These were not spine hits.

Now ask me how I feel about a spine hit. Its not perfect, but its effective at dropping them so that you can finish them off as quickly as possible, which is always my goal.

I am not confused about anything, especially what my personal set of ethical values is. I do not feel that any of those situations is unethical. I was asking if YOU considered any of those situations unethical. Apparently its you that is confused.

I was not calling your example a falsity, that was a reference to other things you have stated that were false. Sorry if you take offense to me calling you on your cherry picking spin tactics, but hey, I just call it how I see it. Believe me, I respect the fact that you have many more years of hunting experience than I do, what I dont respect is your narrow, my way or nothing attitude that you espouse from time to time. I also dont respect the way that you try and fabricate points by taking portions of statements that people make out of context. I read all of your diatribes, some I agree with, some I dont.

My whole point in this 4 pages is that some of you guys took 20 seconds and tried to turn it into something it isnt by guessing at what happened next. What the video contained was nothing more than a shot taken at a bad angle, a hog dropping and some idiot laughing and letting his dog go after the pig all in the matter of less than 30 seconds total (minus the rewind, etc and advertisements). None of us know how long it took for the pig to be finished off. Could have been seconds later, could have been minutes.

On to the next one....

[Geno C]

Lets see, I told you one deer was a shoulder hit and the other was double lung. I did spine a deer the second year I bowhunted, so I know what happened there and how the deer acted. These were not spine hits.

Now ask me how I feel about a spine hit. Its not perfect, but its effective at dropping them so that you can finish them off as quickly as possible, which is always my goal.

I am not confused about anything, especially what my personal set of ethical values is. I do not feel that any of those situations is unethical. I was asking if YOU considered any of those situations unethical. Apparently its you that is confused.

I was not calling your example a falsity, that was a reference to other things you have stated that were false. Sorry if you take offense to me calling you on your cherry picking spin tactics, but hey, I just call it how I see it. Believe me, I respect the fact that you have many more years of hunting experience than I do, what I dont respect is your narrow, my way or nothing attitude that you espouse from time to time. I also dont respect the way that you try and fabricate points by taking portions of statements that people make out of context. I read all of your diatribes, some I agree with, some I dont.

My whole point in this 4 pages is that some of you guys took 20 seconds and tried to turn it into something it isnt by guessing at what happened next. What the video contained was nothing more than a shot taken at a bad angle, a hog dropping and some idiot laughing and letting his dog go after the pig all in the matter of less than 30 seconds total (minus the rewind, etc and advertisements). None of us know how long it took for the pig to be finished off. Could have been seconds later, could have been minutes.

On to the next one....

you act like you know what happened next. So it can really go eitherway. how do you know he did how do you know he didnt?!

in any event i am not saying that this crap doesnt happen man, it does. animals do go off out of site and die like that yes, but when they stick around and give you a second chance is what i am saying to you. how do you not get what anyone is saying here? lol very one sided dude.

[Doc]

Let me assure you that everything that I have been saying in this thread is not "my narrow, my way or nothing". It is not even properly labeled as "my way". At least it's not my way alone. There is nothing that I have said that isn't exactly what I was taught in my hunter safety training. It is the way that all those combined people who developed the national hunter safety program and materials agreed are the principles of ethical shots. I think you were taught that too. And now for some reason, you think you now know more than all that combined braintrust of the past and present. I am not the only one saying this stuff. Didn't you read the other responses? This is not just my way or nothing. It is an overwhelming single-minded opinion of the vast majority of hunters. For some reason you have decided to frame the discussion as being my one lone opinion that I am trying to force down someone's throat even though I have repeatedly talked about the fact that we have a whole nation of hunters being trained in opposition to what you are saying by some very thoughtful and knowledgeable people. So I am not pushing some opinion that I alone have made up.

Now, as far as your filler material of favorite cliched phrases such as cherry picking and spinning and whatever else you use when you have no more ideas for debate, or can't come up with any reasonable counter points. I really don't take offense at them. I just find them becoming old, worn out, unimaginative, meaningless and generally simply reply-stuffers that have been used so often and carelessly that they have lost all meaning and credibility. I recognize when someone is filling in with BS, and it is usually those kinds of over-used comments that preface that process for you.

As for your last point, I have to say that I have not made any assumptions about what happened after the film was shut off. It required no imagination or assuming to recognize that that hog was not even close to being dead when the video cut off. Paralyzed and in a lot of distress yes. Was it necessary? ..... I say no. I say it was lousy shot selection compounded by some shooting error. And quite often lousy shot selection does not allow for any shooting error and that's what makes it lousy shot selection. All that was there on the video. Nobody had to make any assumptions. I don't know how much more time elapsed before the animal was finally out of it's misery. It could have been immediately after the video ended or it could have gone on much longer than any of us might want to imagine. All I know is that what we did see illustrated the bad choices that promoted that fiasco. And chief among those bad choices was the decision to take a rump shot.

[Paulie]

Doc, I believe that you are retired? So, I can understand why you post so much:.......but WNY, where do you find them time to post.....its all day long! Do you get paid for this or something? If so, let me know how I can too!

[WNYBuckHunter]

you act like you know what happened next. So it can really go eitherway. how do you know he did how do you know he didnt?!

in any event i am not saying that this crap doesnt happen man, it does. animals do go off out of site and die like that yes, but when they stick around and give you a second chance is what i am saying to you. how do you not get what anyone is saying here? lol very one sided dude.

I understand what you guys are saying.Im just not claiming to know what happened after the video stopped, which is what I already said. Why should I argue the other side of it? You guys already took care of that.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, I believe that you are retired? So, I can understand why you post so much:.......but WNY, where do you find them time to post.....its all day long! Do you get paid for this or something? If so, let me know how I can too!

I work on computers, so Im on them all day as it is. Half of my time is spent waiting for a process or software to run, so I go on here and other places, its better than watching paint dry lol.