THE GREAT HEALTH CARE DEBATE..

[greybeard]

Thank you Ncountry. I agree with your point of view..

NFA-ADK. Why do you want the gov't to step in on oil prices. You pretty much wrote that you feel that they always screw things up, and my interpretation is that you don't want them involved in anything.

I will be off the computer for a while so this will be my last reply to this topic..

I enjoyed reading both sides just as I enjoy listening to both sides on conservative and liberal radio and tv. I get a good education, and helps me form my opinion after researching the reliability of the topic as best I can. I do not need to be defined by my political beliefs whether it be conservative, or liberal, as many do. I believe that the good of this country is not served by extreme views. Extremes on one side create a backlash from the other side .Discussion and compromise , in "my opinion", is what serves us best.

I generally avoid all political discussions, I keep most opinions to myself and can express my views best behind the curtain in a voting booth, but thought I would jump into the ring for this one.

I will end with this......

MY OPINION :

The government is not perfect and cannot be all things to all people.This is not a tv world with a perfect ending.. Mistakes occur and many times there is no perfect solution. We all think that our way is the correct way, and that's why we vote . Sometimes we get our way and sometimes we don't. In a democracy sometimes the other side wins. I accept that and I sleep better for it. I am happy to be a citizen of the greatest country in the world and have a government that has programs to protect us all. The programs may not all work , but am glad that they try.

[Elmo]

I wish I had the new iPhone and a "Beats by Dr. Dre" headphones. Just like the ones this 16 year old girl in front of me who's paying for her baby's food with food stamps has.

Simple facts of logic. The definition of being rich is to have more than the others and that means in order for one to be rich, someone else has to be "poor". The idea of a society where everyone is equal is call communism and it has been proven that communism doesn't work. Why should I bust my ass, spent a fortune on college tution when I can sit around, smoke pot all day, and have the same luxuries?

There is a major difference between unfortunate and lazy. You're crippled? Ok. Here's some free stuff. Your legs work? Here's a broomstick. Those sidewalks need sweeping. Sweep them up and we'll give you some free stuff. It pisses me off when I hear people make fun of the immigrant who's cleaning the sewage gutter because that job is beneath them, all the while, they're sitting at home collecting welfare checks and complaining that the immigrants are taking all the jobs. I mean really? If someone who doesn't know this country, doesn't have the benefits of any education, can't even speak English, and he/she does a better job than you do it speaks more about your own laziness than anything else.

[MountainHunter]

18 Years ago My wife had a very bad stoke and when it happened the doctor said that she only had 30 hours to live. The doctor told me to picture an apple and think of it as my wifes brain and then cut the apple in half and that is what happen to my wifes brain.Well she made it through after a month and a half in the hospital and three months in rehab, and then two years of speech. When this happened my wife and I had very good jobs and ins. ,So the cost to us was very little out of pocket.

Now I want to tell you about another stoke victim who was in rehab with my wife and was her room mate. This woman also had a very good job ( RN) and worked hard her whole life and she also had health Ins.. She worked for a very large and well known hospital and her husband worked construction for himself. Now you would think that with her being an (RN) and working for a hospital ,that she would have very good Ins. Guess again. The people at the rehab had told them that their Ins. would not cover her stay and her husband told her that they would have sell their home to cover the cost. All this poor woman did is cry day and night before they shipped her off to a nursing home. There are many people in the same boat and will lose everything if they become sick and have no Ins. That is why we need health Ins for everyone.There are many people out there who have worked hard their whole life and could not afford it , if it were not for Obamacare

The Health care reform act has done nothing to address affordability as of yet it has only addressed availability and in NYS that hasn't been a concern for the last 15 plus years. Health Insurance rates continue to escalate. So what good is it if it is available but not affordable?

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Pardon me for putting my kids and wife before some stranger. From the bottom of my heart i'm sorry, but people die. It's the only thing promised in this life...death. I know, I've lost relatives and have some dealing with unfunded medical issues right now, but how dare any of you say that myself or anyone else who chooses to put their own family first is selfish. It is not my fault you got dealt a bad situation or made poor choices to get in said situation. I've helped my fare share of strangers and will continue to do so at MY OWN FREE WILL. You guys act like everyone you know ate right, got 9 hours of sleep every night, exercised, and didn't smoke, drink , or do drugs. Come on, wake up.

Edited April 10, 2012 by ELMER J. FUDD

[Grouse]

The emerging tragedy is our increased willingness to use the coercive powers of government, in the name of health or some other ruse, to forcibly impose our preferences upon others.

How far are you willing to let the government go? How much control of people's private lives are you willing to condone? How much of your annual earnings are you willing to fork over to a government that grows bigger and bigger every year?

The answers to those questions indicates your desire for freedom vs dependency.

Personally, I prefer to keep the government out of my life as much as possible. I don't need a nanny, a 2nd mother, or any Federal authority making all of my choices for me.

[virgil]

All you guys who claim to want 'the government out of healthcare' will be happy to accept free medical care if/when the day comes that you need it.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Only, it's not "free" if we paid into our whole life, is it? What's wrong with getting back from something we paid into?

[adirondackbushwhack]

18 Years ago My wife had a very bad stoke and when it happened the doctor said that she only had 30 hours to live. The doctor told me to picture an apple and think of it as my wifes brain and then cut the apple in half and that is what happen to my wifes brain.Well she made it through after a month and a half in the hospital and three months in rehab, and then two years of speech. When this happened my wife and I had very good jobs and ins. ,So the cost to us was very little out of pocket.

Now I want to tell you about another stoke victim who was in rehab with my wife and was her room mate. This woman also had a very good job ( RN) and worked hard her whole life and she also had health Ins.. She worked for a very large and well known hospital and her husband worked construction for himself. Now you would think that with her being an (RN) and working for a hospital ,that she would have very good Ins. Guess again. The people at the rehab had told them that their Ins. would not cover her stay and her husband told her that they would have sell their home to cover the cost. All this poor woman did is cry day and night before they shipped her off to a nursing home. There are many people in the same boat and will lose everything if they become sick and have no Ins. That is why we need health Ins for everyone.There are many people out there who have worked hard their whole life and could not afford it , if it were not for Obamacare

So in your story the poor nurse and her husband could afford to buy a house but not better health insurance? The story could have went another way and they could have bought a smaller home or rented an apartment and bought better health insurance. Whats next buy houses for those responcible enough to buy health insurance instead of a house?

[virgil]

Only, it's not "free" if we paid into our whole life, is it? What's wrong with getting back from something we paid into?

Your question/point would be interesting if it was based in fact. Below is an article from the Washington Post that explains this myth. If you were truly only getting back what you've already paid into the system, you'd be getting far less than you think.

Nearly three out of five people said in a recent Associated Press-GfK poll that people who paid into the system deserve their full benefits - no cuts.

But an updated financial analysis shows that the amount workers have paid does not come close to covering the full value of the medical care they can expect to receive as retirees.

Consider an average-wage two-earner couple together earning $89,000 a year. Upon retiring in 2011, they would have paid $114,000 in Medicare payroll taxes during their careers. But they can expect to receive medical services - including prescriptions and hospital care - worth $355,000, or about three times what they put in.

The estimates by economists Eugene Steuerle and Stephanie Rennane of the Urban Institute think tank illustrate the huge disconnect between widely held perceptions and the numbers behind Medicare's shaky financing. Although Americans are worried about Medicare's long-term solvency, few realize the size of the gap.

"The fact that you put money into the system doesn't mean it's there waiting for you to collect," Steuerle said.

[adirondackbushwhack]

This topic seemed to go beyond just health care for some, so here's my thoughts..

I have heard the pros and cons and I feel that affordable healthcare for all americans is a good thing. We are inundated with the religious citizens preaching about the ills of this country and then they would deny people affordable health care. It is a fact that thousands of people die each year because of lack of health care. Why don't these deeply religious folks feel that we should "care for the sick"

( one of the corporal works of mercy.. I believe). Wasn't it said in the Bible that one of the 2 greatest commandments was to love your neighbor.

I am a senior citizen and hear people complaining all the time about government, but they sure don't return their benefits. It's easy to complain while you collect. I asked one recently if he would turn down medicare after his contributions to the system had been met.. The question was not appreciated...would you turn it down ?

Why not exclude medical deductions on your federal tax forms ? Aren't we all contributing because you got sick.

Why should charitable deductions be allowed..If you feel so good about helping people so be it, but why should the government reward you for your personal beliefs.

Why allow additional deductions for children, it was your choice, so why should you be rewarded.

Locally, why should I pay for school taxes. I don't have kids in school and I paid when I did. And especially why should I pay for school sports.

Why should my taxes fix roads in Alaska (etc.) I'm never going to drive on them.

Why pay unemployment benefits ? If you don't like them then turn them down if you lose your job.

My point is this :

The answer "FOR ME" to the above is that we contribute because we are a civilized society who cares for each other and sometimes we contribute for the good of others. We don't all benefit by everything we pay for.

What happened to "United We Stand."

I'm happy that for all my years I lived in a country that cares for the well being of it's citizens. It may not be perfect, but I love it !!

What happened to Liberty?

[adirondackbushwhack]

Most likely...if the govt. works true-to-form, our Medicare premiums will go UP!

No benefits are going down. They have recently appointed panels to decide who gets covered for what.

[adirondackbushwhack]

My first question was about the mandate. It seems alot of folks here have been brainwashed by good ole Fox news that the affordable healthcare act is some kind of complete gov takeover/universal healthcare type thing, which it is not.

I dont beleive it is socialism because it was invented by republicans way before Romney ever put it into place in his home state where in fact it is working.

So getting back to the Mandate which is what this whole thing hinges on (forget all the idealogical debates). Isnt it a good idea to make people take responsibility and make them pay for their own health care? Our biggest problem is too many folks who could afford some sort of health insurance just choose not to do so..Example>>OOOhhhh im only 35 and im healthy and my wife runs 5 miles a day and is also healthy why the heck should i pay 10 thousand buck a year for health care. Eample>>>Mister im healthy and only 35 gets a pain in his chest and finds out he needs a catheterization and it cost 58 thousand bucks for the operation. He says hey i aint got the money and he owns a home which has an underwater mortage and is worthless in todays economy or lives in an apartment and there really isnt any way to make him pay.

So what does the hospital do, hell yaa they raise the price on the folks who do have insurance! its an endless cycle and that is why a catheterization cost 58 thousand bucks in America and half that in Germany or France!

Saying this this health care law is socialism just doesnt make sense in my opinion, it does what ever goog God fearin flag wavin conservative talks about all the time, Make folks take responsibilty for their own health insurance.

I always like the guys who think that one news station is brainwashing people while another is only accurately reporting the news. Ha!

The government always says it's for the good of somebody when they take away our liberty. When this country was on it's way up people figured Liberty to be a great thing. Maybe you heard the give me liberty or give me death thing. Now that the country is on it's way down Liberty doesn't mean squat. Maybe Liberty has farther reaching effects than socialists think.

[GreeneHunter]

I have relatives whom live in the UK , one had to wait 7 months for a Heart Operation ! National Healthcare .... no thanks !

[wooffer]

All you guys who claim to want 'the government out of healthcare' will be happy to accept free medical care if/when the day comes that you need it.

Free? You mean someone other than the US taxpayers will pay for the healthcare system? Wow! sign me up then. NOTHING IS FREE, we will all pay dearly and it will be frought with waste and corruption. Do you own a TV? Have you seen how the GSA wastes money? Well don't expect the healtcare program or any other government program to be run any different.

[Dave]

Did you know that under Obama care there is a tax you have to pay when you sell your house to fund Obama care. I think it's 3.8%. My question is what the hell does selling my house have to do with health care? And why should I be taxes to pay for it.

[virgil]

Did you know that under Obama care there is a tax you have to pay when you sell your house to fund Obama care. I think it's 3.8%. My question is what the hell does selling my house have to do with health care? And why should I be taxes to pay for it.

Here are the facts from the Tax Foundation.

There has been

a story and an e-mail floating around

for some time claiming that the recent health care reform bill (PPACA/supplemental bill) would impose a 3.8 percent “sales” tax on the sale of every home. The e-mail has been rightfully debunked by the usuals (Factcheck.org and Snopes), but here is what the bill would actually do regarding taxation of the sales of homes.

First, there is no “sales” tax on home sales in the health care bill. The bill would impose essentially a capital gains taxes on

some

home sales made by a

limited number

of taxpayers. (The health care law contains a new 3.8 percent tax on “unearned income” for high-income taxpayers. Unearned income includes capital gains.) To be hit by the 3.8 percent capital gains tax, you first have to be a married couple making more than $250,000 in adjusted gross income or $200,000 if you are single. The capital gain on the home sale must also exceed $500,000 if this is a primary home and you are a married couple ($250,000 for singles). So for example, even if you and your spouse make $300,000 in wages and you bought a home that you lived in for a while for $600,000 that you now sell it for $1 million, your capital gains tax on that home sale would be zero. Even if the home sold for $1.2 million, thereby resulting in a capital gain of $600,000, only $100,000 of that capital gain would subject to the new tax (because of the $500,000 exclusion).

For those who earn above those income thresholds ($250,000/$200,000) and who have a capital gain on a home that is a second home or one that does not qualify for principal residence (i.e., lived in for too short of a time period), the full capital gain would be subject to the new 3.8 percent tax.

Dave, sorry, I know you hate to let facts get in the way of good rhetoric.

[Dave]

Did you know that under Obama care there is a tax you have to pay when you sell your house to fund Obama care. I think it's 3.8%. My question is what the hell does selling my house have to do with health care? And why should I be taxes to pay for it.

Here are the facts from the Tax Foundation.

There has been

a story and an e-mail floating around

for some time claiming that the recent health care reform bill (PPACA/supplemental bill) would impose a 3.8 percent “sales” tax on the sale of every home. The e-mail has been rightfully debunked by the usuals (Factcheck.org and Snopes), but here is what the bill would actually do regarding taxation of the sales of homes.

First, there is no “sales” tax on home sales in the health care bill. The bill would impose essentially a capital gains taxes on

some

home sales made by a

limited number

of taxpayers. (The health care law contains a new 3.8 percent tax on “unearned income” for high-income taxpayers. Unearned income includes capital gains.) To be hit by the 3.8 percent capital gains tax, you first have to be a married couple making more than $250,000 in adjusted gross income or $200,000 if you are single. The capital gain on the home sale must also exceed $500,000 if this is a primary home and you are a married couple ($250,000 for singles). So for example, even if you and your spouse make $300,000 in wages and you bought a home that you lived in for a while for $600,000 that you now sell it for $1 million, your capital gains tax on that home sale would be zero. Even if the home sold for $1.2 million, thereby resulting in a capital gain of $600,000, only $100,000 of that capital gain would subject to the new tax (because of the $500,000 exclusion).

For those who earn above those income thresholds ($250,000/$200,000) and who have a capital gain on a home that is a second home or one that does not qualify for principal residence (i.e., lived in for too short of a time period), the full capital gain would be subject to the new 3.8 percent tax.

Dave, sorry, I know you hate to let facts get in the way of good rhetoric.

Virgil, there is still a 3.8% tax for some under this plan is there not? Sorry I haven't read the 2700 pages of the the Obama Care bill. Should have been named fleecing of America Bill . You are worng I love facts and can admit when I am wrong. If you read my post I said I THINK there is a 3.8% tax ,implying I wasn't 100% sure.

[virgil]

The point is that, even though you haven't read it, you still don't hesitate to post something that is inaccurate and misleading. Would you have still made that post if you knew that in fact this 'tax' was only on capital gains of over $500k and only applied to individuals who earn over $200k or married couples who earn over $250k? I just think that you should actually know what you're talking about before posting something. People are easily mislead, obviously.

[Dave]

The point is that, even though you haven't read it, you still don't hesitate to post something that is inaccurate and misleading. Would you have still made that post if you knew that in fact this 'tax' was only on capital gains of over $500k and only applied to individuals who earn over $200k or married couples who earn over $250k? I just think that you should actually know what you're talking about before posting something. People are easily mislead, obviously.

I know that you are for redistribution of the wealth. But regardless of the BS you recite there is still some tax payers who will pay that tax to fund Obama Care. And didn't I see you in a clown suit wasting tax payers money in Las Vegas?

[virgil]

Nice job Dave. When you are once again found to be spouting off without any fact or logic behind your statements, you can always respond with childish insults and accusations. Stick with your stengths.

[Dave]

Nice job Dave. When you are once again found to be spouting off without any fact or logic behind your statements, you can always respond with childish insults and accusations. Stick with your stengths.

Just continue to cut and paste your articles, that's all you can do . We all know your MO.

[virgil]

Dave, I sight references from objective sources in some of my posts to show that there is fact behind the statement, not just my personal opinion. It's common practice in any journalistic or professional context. Ask anyone who went to college.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The point is that, even though you haven't read it, you still don't hesitate to post something that is inaccurate and misleading. Would you have still made that post if you knew that in fact this 'tax' was only on capital gains of over $500k and only applied to individuals who earn over $200k or married couples who earn over $250k? I just think that you should actually know what you're talking about before posting something. People are easily mislead, obviously.

Regardless of what the numbers or limitations are on the "Capital Gains Tax", it is still an example of the government imposing taxes upon the citizens to fund an unconstitutional program under the guise of "its for the common good".

[virgil]

Taxes have always been used to fund government programs for the common good. It is your opinion that this program is unconstitutional.

[adirondackbushwhack]

The point is that, even though you haven't read it, you still don't hesitate to post something that is inaccurate and misleading. Would you have still made that post if you knew that in fact this 'tax' was only on capital gains of over $500k and only applied to individuals who earn over $200k or married couples who earn over $250k? I just think that you should actually know what you're talking about before posting something. People are easily mislead, obviously.

Some of us, and I count myself among them, believe it is wrong to take anyones liberty, including that of the wealthy. So as long as there is a tax for somebody for this mess it is wrong. I'm kind of wondering under what circumstances many of you feel its alright to forcibly take money from others? You all don't seem to mind in this case.