Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[JCTheGC]

Does taste better than any buck anyhow.

Yeah, and in a couple of units where AR's are in effect in NYS chances of getting a doe permit are slim to none.  I guess these hunters will be eating their tags instead?

Yup, i guess they will.  Then in two years or so they can go eat all the bone they want with the bigger bucks they will get.  Or maybe pickup a muzzle or bow and get some doe.  Or get a DMP transferred from a friend, or get a nuisance permit from a farmer, or get a land owners permit for having more then 50 acres. 

[SteveB]

NYS is a big area, Where are you? 

Compairing a NON-AR area to WNY or other area's were bucks tend to be larger and older is not apples to apples.

And conversly someone not familar with the conditions in my area has no business pushing for statewide ar based soley on their wmu.  What you feel may have a positive effect in your area could very well be nuetral or even negative elsewhere in the state.

[Fairgame]

Who was pushing statewide?  You are against something you have no idea of how it is working in the areas that have it.  What are you afraid of?  If you guys have bigger bucks good for you.  Are antler restrictions working in areas that have it? Yes!!  Ask the hunters that hunt these AR units if they like the antler restrictions I could guarantee we would get over a 95% approval for them. 

[SteveB]

Yup, i guess they will.  Then in two years or so they can go eat all the bone they want with the bigger bucks they will get.

So in only 2 years, you know there will be ar legal bucks for all to shoot? Please post the numbers showing this - they would be the buck take the year before AR and the the take 2 years later.

Or maybe pickup a muzzle or bow and get some doe. Or get a DMP transferred from a friend, or get a nuisance permit from a farmer, or get a land owners permit for having more then 50 acres. 

Maybe they have neither the interest or funds available to buy and become proficient with different weapons. And if the herd numbers are low enough that few or no dmp's are given (40% of the wmu's), do you feel it is good management to up the doe kill rate? Where are the buck fawns going to come from that everyone will get to kill at 2.5 to 3.5 years (still young deer) if there are fewer does having them?

 

[JCTheGC]

I'm not pushing for statewide, I can only talk from my experience in my WMU.  Your WMU might very well be doing fine with older, bigger mature bucks where the pressure is not there or the conditions are better.  I don't think that anyone that commented on AR is for AR in other WMU's they are just mearly posting their experience for their AR WMU.  And the same goes for whose in WMU's without AR, why should you have any business taking AR away or bashing it for that matter when you cain't talk from first hand experience.  If your WMU is doing fine, thats awesome.  But if AR can, even by the slightest chance give us some bigger bucks, why all the resistance.  Lets just see what happens, and from what I have seen and others that have commented its been positive.  If it doesn't work, then stop it, and lets move on and try something different. Doing nothing changes nothing.

[SteveB]

Who was pushing statewide?

Pretty much everyone that is pro AR.

You are against something you have no idea of how it is working in the areas that have it

.

I am against something for my area that I feel is foolish, feel good management that there has been nothing offered to demonstrate the targeting the nearly 60% of 1.5 bucks that are 6pt or better would be a good thing. 

What are you afraid of?

Poor management decisions based on bad science so a few think they can hunt just the the TV hero's.

[Fairgame]

Barley any doe tags given out in my area.  Do I care? No!  Do I feel I can still fill the tags I have being that im in an antler restricted zone?  Yes.  Plently of deer around.  Look at Burmjohns photos.  Enough deer on one acre for 2 hunters.

[Fairgame]

When was it stated to be put statewide?  When did the dec even try to put it in your area?  Your fighting against something thats not fighting you back.  Your fighting what other people have and like.

[JCTheGC]

So in only 2 years, you know there will be ar legal bucks for all to shoot? Please post the numbers showing this - they would be the buck take the year before AR and the the take 2 years later.

I never said all to shoot, since AR has been in effect for a few years, the last few years have resulted in larger bucks.  I used 2 years as a general example, because this year (and last) has resulted in larger bucks from both first hand experience and from others in AR Zones.   

Maybe they have neither the interest or funds available to buy and become proficient with different weapons. And if the herd numbers are low enough that few or no dmp's are given (40% of the wmu's), do you feel it is good management to up the doe kill rate? Where are the buck fawns going to come from that everyone will get to kill at 2.5 to 3.5 years (still young deer) if there are fewer does having them?

That really is not my problem if those do not wish to hunt with different weapons. I guess they will have to suck it up for a few years, or put in the time and have patience to see that more mature buck to take with the weapon of their choice. I've gone years with out taking a buck, so I feel no pity for those who might have to do the same.  In my WMU does are not low, they are all over as are the younger bucks.  The issue is the bucks were getting nuked well before that 2.5 or 3.5 mark.  Maybe 2.5 and 3.5 is young in YOUR WMU, however again due to pressure, etc, these bucks were not even making it to that mark. 

[Larry]

If you want to see bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and keep the buck to doe ratio at about 3 doe’s to every buck and you don’t have to let every small buck walk  just most of them. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple. And you don’t need AR’s

[Larry]

Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

  What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

[jimbodwb]

I have read many different forums, articles in magazines, and even some books on AR's. No where in any of these have I seen anyone show valid scientific proof that letting small antlered deer get bigger antlers will help the overall health of a deer herd. In NYS you can see a 3 1/2 yo buck with small antlers that would not allow you to shoot it under AR. But then you could see a 1 1/2 yo buck with big enough antlers to shoot. How is this letting the smaller younger deer walk. Antlers are not a good judge of age and the only argument I ever hear about AR's is that it helps the younger deer get older which is supposed to help the deer herd. Also, AR would be another one of these Government restrictions it seems most hunters are against at all cost. I am not one of these hunters that are afraid of Govt restrictions if they make sense by the way. The problem is, AR's do not make sense in any way.

[SteveB]

A couple need to read the original post "Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?"

It was about AR - not AR in a couple wmu's in the trial areas. No mention of having it done only in your back yard - the obvious (to most) assumption is as a statewide management program.

That really is not my problem if those do not wish to hunt with different weapons. I guess they will have to suck it up for a few years, or put in the time and have patience to see that more mature buck to take with the weapon of their choice.

Says it all right there - tough for everyone else who doesn't have the same goals as you.

I understand what mandatory AR means to you now. It is not about letting bucks get to true maturity?4.5 or older - can't happen if they are shot before that whether as 1.5, 2.5 or 3.5, the result is the same, dead before mature.  It is about getting a little more antler and a few pounds before killing them as still immature bucks. As long as you get the greater chance to shoot those trophy 2.5 and 3.5's, what other's seek from their hunting experiance does not matter. The true motivation of AR for many. 

[Doc]

Is there anybody who has the actual credibility of training and actual data who is conducting any studies on these "test areas"? The anecdotal comments are fun to hear, but if you are trying to actually convince people that AR do work, it sure is great to have some official, scientifically derived data to show rather than individual "impressions". The point of my reply about the increasing size bucks in our non-AR area was to point out that there are many reasons for deer herd improvements and they may not all have to do with AR. What I would really like to see is some of the info from the DEC (or Cornell) that reaches conclusions and explanations that are derived in a scientific way rather than just simply unsubstantiated opinion.

So the question is, is anyone actually using this test lab to actually learn something? Is the DEC taking the opportunity to pull data and analyze it, or is this opportunity being frittered away. By the way, I would like to also have the effect on hunter participation in those areas studied to see if there has been any residual loss of hunter population due to the restrictions. Is anyone aware of any studies being conducted along those lines in those trial AR WMUs? Better yet, does anyone have access to such info?

Doc

[SteveB]

Doc - great questions!!!

[Doewhacker]

"At the present time, DEC biologists see no specific management benefit associated with the antler restriction program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition."

This isn't any thing new but worth a re-post from the DEC.

[Buckstopshere]

Larry: And one other point, I don't think you made the point about the guy that "managed away" his deer herd on his 1700 acres...how many of those does that he shot off were button bucks?

And those are the bucks of the future!

The birth ratio is about one buck fawn to one doe fawn and since buck fawns are a bit bigger than doe fawns, many times hunters (yours truly included, sad to say,) have shot button bucks thinking they saw a doe and her smaller fawn, when in fact it was two fawns, a buck fawn and doe fawn.

The reality of trying to achieve a one-to-one buck doe ratio would be a very difficult thing to achieve.

And do they count button bucks as bucks?

And how do they tell the difference?

Sounds like pretty faulty science to me, once you look into it with a practical eye.

[Fairgame]

"At the present time, DEC biologists see no specific management benefit associated with the antler restriction program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition."

This isn't any thing new but worth a re-post from the DEC.

If there isn't any scientific proof, how can the DEC biologist "assume" this?  Being a hunter in 2 of these areas I can only talk from personal experience and experience from other hunters in the area.  IMO the only proof I need where I hunt is from my experience in the field and hunters around me in these zones.  Hunter satisfaction is important and in the areas that have it satisfaction has only grown in the last few years from talking to alot of hunters in these areas.  I know I will fight to keep it in our area and so will others.  It would be a shame to have something that has made a change for the better taken away.

[Doc]

If there isn't any scientific proof, how can the DEC biologist "assume" this?  Being a hunter in 2 of these areas I can only talk from personal experience and experience from other hunters in the area.  IMO the only proof I need where I hunt is from my experience in the field and hunters around me in these zones.  Hunter satisfaction is important and in the areas that have it satisfaction has only grown in the last few years from talking to alot of hunters in these areas.  I know I will fight to keep it in our area and so will others.  It would be a shame to have something that has made a change for the better taken away.

I've got to tell you that I spend about as much time out there hunting and scouting and jawboning with other hunters as anyone I know, and it beats me how you have been able to canvass hunters in two WMUs, and perform deer surveys over that many square miles such that you can tell us the hunter attitudes and the deer herd conditions across that much area. It's an enviable feat, and I really must admire your ability to do what all of the DEC has  not.  Personally, I don't even try to speak for the hunters of even a small part of our one WMU and whenever I speak of deer conditions, I always make sure that everyone understands that I am only speaking of that acreage that I personally hunt which is not a significant amount of square miles within our WMU. There's no way that I would speak for the hunters or herd conditions of two WMUs and I'm surprised that you think you are able to. Maybe those two areas that you are talking about are a lot smaller than they look on the map  .

Doc

[Doewhacker]

"For hunters seeking to see more 2.5 year old bucks, antler restrictions may be effective. However, antler restrictions may be only minimally effective for hunters desiring to take more, older bucks. Data from New York’s current pilot antler restriction program reveals only a minor increase (about 14%) in the average number of 2.5 year old and older bucks harvested after

several years of antler restrictions despite a dramatic reduction (about 65%) in average yearling harvest."

"Additionally, surveys conducted in the pilot antler restriction WMUs (3C, 3H, 3J, 3K) indicate similar division whereby the antler restriction has further increased either their satisfaction or dissatisfaction."

"At the present time, the Department sees no specific biological or management

benefit associated with the antler restriction program. We believe it is primarily a social issue, and it is clear that hunters are deeply divided"

     

"...data from New York’s current pilot program indicate that the total

number of bucks taken with antler restrictions has remained on average about 30% below preantler restriction levels." 

Oh they have plenty of science and facts to back up their rules, you will not see AR grow in NY, but you may see it go away some day.

[Doc]

 

"For hunters seeking to see more 2.5 year old bucks, antler restrictions may be effective. However, antler restrictions may be only minimally effective for hunters desiring to take more, older bucks. Data from New York’s current pilot antler restriction program reveals only a minor increase (about 14%) in the average number of 2.5 year old and older bucks harvested after

several years of antler restrictions despite a dramatic reduction (about 65%) in average yearling harvest."

"Additionally, surveys conducted in the pilot antler restriction WMUs (3C, 3H, 3J, 3K) indicate similar division whereby the antler restriction has further increased either their satisfaction or dissatisfaction."

"At the present time, the Department sees no specific biological or management

benefit associated with the antler restriction program. We believe it is primarily a social issue, and it is clear that hunters are deeply divided"

      "...data from New York’s current pilot program indicate that the total

number of bucks taken with antler restrictions has remained on average about 30% below preantler restriction levels." 

Oh they have plenty of science and facts to back up their rules, you will not see AR grow in NY, but you may see it go away some day.

Could you tell us the origin of that info, or someplace where I could access it? It sounds like the DEC has indeed spent some time analyzing the results of the AR test WMUs, like I have been asking for. I would like to start collecting that kind of info.

Doc

[Doewhacker]

Sure Doc anything for you, by the way it looks like they have more data that has yet to be "refined", what ever that means. Try this...

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/arcomment09.pdf

[Doc]

Thanks! I'm off to check it all out.

[burmjohn]

This is from the same document that Doewacker quoted from.  They are saying that the AR program has been successful in allowing the 1.5's to survive.

Hunter perceptions of the success of antler restriction programs elsewhere appear to

reflect their underlying support or opposition for mandatory antler restrictions. Success should

be determined based on pre-established criteria. In Pennsylvania, one of the goals of their antler

restriction program was to reduce harvest rate of yearling bucks, and by this measure, their

program has been successful. Similarly, in our pilot antler restriction program in New York, we

have successfully reduced the yearling portion of our buck take, one of the stated goals of the

program. The other key goal of our pilot program was to increase hunter satisfaction levels, and

our survey results indicate mixed response in hunter satisfaction.

Several western states have experimented with antler restriction programs and

subsequently discontinued the programs after experiencing a high degree of illegal kills.

However, biologists in Pennsylvania estimate the illegal kills associated with their antler

restrictions at less than 5% of total harvest. Similarly, the Department has no reason to believe

that illegal kills have increased in the current pilot antler restriction area.

[Fairgame]

The reduction of yearling bucks harvested is by 65% is a good thing.(wasn't that the goal?) It's stating that more bucks are surviving to an older age.  And the growth of only 14% on 2 1/2 or older bucks harvested is saying that these animals are harder to hunt cause they are getting older.  The opportunity is there to harvest a nice buck if a hunter puts in his time and luck is on their side.