Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[nyantler]

Well if you are asking me personally... I just know what a big buck looks like..so I wouldn't need an AR... if you're asking how the state should do it... I guess, just for the sake of argument.. 4 on a side would be better for protecting yearling bucks.

The idea of the AR is to try and take more mature bucks, and leave the younger bucks alone to eventually balance age structure. Generally (100% of th time ) your younger bucks aren't big bucks. So in reality hunters really shouldn't be as concerned with how many points but more the size of the rack and the size of the deer... I'm pretty sure most, if not all, hunters know the difference between a big buck and a small buck.. the problem is that fellas are more worried about how they will be able to shoot a buck that is close to the limit... than a buck where there is no question he's a shooter.

[burmjohn]

John - the 60% is taken directly from the study done for the proposal for here - the one I sent you and we posted. It actually includes 3 wmu's in CNY.

I guess your all set then you do not need AR's in your area.  In our area, where 60% + of our bucks are not 6 point or better, it works.

[wztirem]

Well if you are asking me personally... I just know what a big buck looks like..so I wouldn't need an AR... if you're asking how the state should do it... I guess, just for the sake of argument.. 4 on a side would be better for protecting yearling bucks.

The idea of the AR is to try and take more mature bucks, and leave the younger bucks alone to eventually balance age structure. Generally (100% of th time ) your younger bucks aren't big bucks. So in reality hunters really shouldn't be as concerned with how many points but more the size of the rack and the size of the deer... I'm pretty sure most, if not all, hunters know the difference between a big buck and a small buck.. the problem is that fellas are more worried about how they will be able to shoot a buck that is close to the limit... than a buck where there is no question he's a shooter.

Okay, balance the age structure of of the buck population. How many does need to be killed to balance the overall deer population for a given area? How you you determine the optimum deer population for a given area in relation to the carrying capacity of the habitat?

Statewide AR compromises the DEC's ability to control deer populations. Their best solution and most cost effective method based upon available funds is continue with the status quo.

With AR, other factors concerning deer management need to be addressed. Their is a price to pay for AR.

Please share your thoughts!

[nyantler]

AR compromises the DECs ability to control population because they have let it get so out of hand over the years... If in fact the do population has to decrease to make room for a balanced buck age structure , then so be it.. the need for guys to fill permits shouldn't supercede whats right and natural for the deer herd.

[wztirem]

Whats the plan? You consider yourself an authority on how to improve the age struck of the buck population, now lets hear the rest Einstein on how you propose to manage the overall deer population within the state!

[nyantler]

Ahh the name calling starts.. usually the response when you don't have a valid point to make... I don't have to lay it out .. the plan has been layed out for year... and yes I am an authority on the plan... Do your homework first then come back and we'll have an educated discussion about it.

Actually, I'm sure you already know what needs to be done without me telling you, you're just not ready to accept it like most other hunters.

[G-Man]

Here's a plan issue everyone a anterless tag with their licence and give out buck tags by lottery like doe tags are now. The bucks will grow older and hte state will get its population control...

[nyantler]

Here's a plan issue everyone a anterless tag with their licence and give out buck tags by lottery like doe tags are now. The bucks will grow older and hte state will get its population control...

Not a bad idea..might take a bit longer to work without some kind of AR to protect yearlings.. but not bad

[G-Man]

I guess i should say this plan is for the southern zone... northern can come up with a more specfic plan for their population there...

[nyantler]

Statewide AR compromises the DEC's ability to control deer populations. Their best solution and most cost effective method based upon available funds is continue with the status quo.

With AR, other factors concerning deer management need to be addressed. Their is a price to pay for AR.

Please share your thoughts!

First of all the staus quo is the reasson we're even talking about this.. second I was asked a question not based on DEC funds, just a question about what I thought would be better than 3 pts on a side for protecting yearling bucks. And third.. you're right there are other factors and there is a price to pay for AR.. neither one of which needed to be discussed in my anwser to bubba.

[bubba]

I guess i should say this plan is for the southern zone... northern can come up with a more specfic plan for their population there...

The northern zone is just fine as it is according to almost everyone who hunts here

[wztirem]

Ahh the name calling starts.. usually the response when you don't have a valid point to make... I don't have to lay it out .. the plan has been layed out for year... and yes I am an authority on the plan... Do your homework first then come back and we'll have an educated discussion about it.

Actually, I'm sure you already know what needs to be done without me telling you, you're just not ready to accept it like most other hunters.

"and yes I am an authority on the plan..."

Lets see your credentials! Are you published? Who has recognized you as such an authority?

Have any of your peers (sic) referenced in their published scholarly works referenced you? Until then, I cannot take you seriously. Your focus is on one aspect of deer management AR  and does not account for the cause and effect AR has on overall deer management.

The DEC's methods of Deer management is the best we have with the funds available to them. Take their advice and voluntarily practice AR. It would be best for all concerns.

Take the "Einstein" comment as a compliment!

[SteveB]

I don't have to lay it out .. the plan has been layed out for year... 

I may have missed the posting of the plan - at 80 pages it's possible.

Can you point to it again?

Thanks

[Pat Rockets]

Ar is for headhunters and should be viewed unethical..what else would you call it otherwise..guess you might not get that if you think the woods needs to be loaded up with b&c bucks..new innovations arent enough to ease your hunt?

[SteveB]

Ethics has zero to do with it.

[wztirem]

I don't have to lay it out .. the plan has been layed out for year... 

I may have missed the posting of the plan - at 80 pages it's possible.

Can you point to it again?

Thanks

Someone deleted the plan ???

[nyantler]

Ahh the name calling starts.. usually the response when you don't have a valid point to make... I don't have to lay it out .. the plan has been layed out for year... and yes I am an authority on the plan... Do your homework first then come back and we'll have an educated discussion about it.

Actually, I'm sure you already know what needs to be done without me telling you, you're just not ready to accept it like most other hunters.

"and yes I am an authority on the plan..."

Lets see your credentials! Are you published? Who has recognized you as such an authority?

Have any of your peers (sic) referenced in their published scholarly works referenced you? Until then, I cannot take you seriously. Your focus is on one aspect of deer management AR  and does not account for the cause and effect AR has on overall deer management.

The DEC's methods of Deer management is the best we have with the funds available to them. Take their advice and voluntarily practice AR. It would be best for all concerns.

Take the "Einstein" comment as a compliment!

Yes I am published.. and like I said do your homework.. don't take my word for it? And I don't care about you taking me serious or not. I am not promoting any AR plan here and I was only asked a question about AR only... i was simply offering my opinion on a question directed to me on this thread.

you need to learn a little more about me before you make any assumptions about my stance on AR and or deer management as far as NY is concerned.. first try looking back at some of my earlier posts in the forum concerning the subject. Then come back again and we can discuss what you think you know.

[SteveB]

Bill - pretty much everyone has given their idea of a plan, but I don't remember seeing a specific one from Joe that he alluded to. I seem to remember he does not support AR. Just trying to save a search for it.

[wztirem]

This AR argument will seemingly never go away. Perhaps, the DEC should hire Dr. Gary Alt!

[nyantler]

Steve I believe you posted the QDM plan on another thread... that is the basic QDM concept developed nearly 17 years ago here in NY and implimented at Weller Mountain under the supervision of Dr. Grant Woods.. I spoke on QDM in the mid 90's at the Whitetail Classic along with Charlie Alshiemer who spoke on it there as well when 95% of NY hunters didn't even know what QDM was, I partipated in the plan at Weller Mountain and wrote an article on Weller Mountain in my magazine on the data collected at the time.

If you look back on other threads here you will read that my OPINION is that I am for voluntary AR and have practiced it since 1991, I am not a believer in point restrictions as the best means to protect yearling bucks. I also have stated that I it doesn't matter to me what the DEC does or doesn't do in the way of AR because my personal standards are probably much higher than anything they would mandate anyway.

You will also find that I posted that AR's alone don't make up a good management plan and all aspects of deer management must be looked at in all different types of NY habitat because a broad management mandate will not work the same in every WMU in NY..

Like most uninformed hunters you all are quick to jump on a sentence or two posted answering a direct question of my opinion on that particular question .. My OPINION is that AR is an integral part of any management plan because it develops a balanced buck age structure in a whitetail herd... but I am not in favor of using AR to simply to produce bigger bucks.. that just happens to be the by-product of a balanced age structure.

Im have also written that I am not a fan of the current approach by the QDMA to promote food plots to emhance antler growth or to keep deer isolated to a particular area.. I believe one of my post says that I was disappointed that current QDM promotion is not quite the same as the orignal concept that I spoke on in the mid 90's

[nyantler]

Hope this will work

[nyantler]

This was the only way I could get these up hope you find a way to be able to read it... it was written in November of 1995.. click next to the paper clip where it says QDM# and it should pop up on your computer where you can increase the size to read it.

[burmjohn]

Ar is for headhunters and should be viewed unethical..what else would you call it otherwise..guess you might not get that if you think the woods needs to be loaded up with b&c bucks..new innovations arent enough to ease your hunt?

Who the hell is talking about B&C bucks?  Before you make a broad comment as you did, you need to read the whole thread.

[nyantler]

Ar is for headhunters and should be viewed unethical..what else would you call it otherwise..guess you might not get that if you think the woods needs to be loaded up with b&c bucks..new innovations arent enough to ease your hunt?

As a Headhunter...I'm not even sure how to respond to that!!  :

[Pat Rockets]

What is it exactly you would like to accomplish then with said restriction then...