Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doc]

Hey....Good to hear from you again. Glad you made it across to the new forum.

You realize that you are speaking heresy, and will now probably be descended upon by the flames of the AR people both here and in the readership of New York Outdoor News? That's alright. It's always nice to catch both sides of all the different issues, and I enjoy a bit of controversy every now and then....lol.

Yeah, after posting that comment, I kind of figured it out that there likely was an article size limit. That's too bad. You took on a huge topic that could extend into volumes of info. I don't suppose that the research articles are published on the net somewhere. I would be interested in reading a little more detail on those studies. You don't very often get to read anything on that side of the issue.

Doc

[Larry]

Hey here’s away to have more deer and bigger bucks, with no AR’s. Adopt a 1 on 2 off policy we hunt 1 year and then no hunting for 2 years. On the year we hunt we have a bag limit of 4 bucks and 6 doe’s this should satisfy the big buck crowd and the I am not seeing any deer crowd. There would be plenty of bucks and plenty of deer.  ???

[rock]

i would love to see ar in ny but you can shoot two buck you could make it so one has to be eight point and the other of your choice

[Buckstopshere]

Here's a good place to start from research from Mississippi:

I lifted this from the Mississippi study.

"At the same time, bucks with eight or more points

decreased from 81 to 47 percent. The big shift in prevalence

of antler points within the 31⁄2-year age class on this

public property shows how the 4-point antler restriction

can decrease average antler size. Protecting two- and

three-point yearling bucks results in smaller-antlered 31⁄2-

year bucks only if there is a link between antler size at

11⁄2 and 31⁄2 years."

This quote is from:

By Dr. Bronson K. Strickland, Assistant Extension Professor, Wildlife and Fisheries; and Dr. Stephen Demarais, Professor, Wildlife and Fisheries

 

Publication 2427

Extension Service of Mississippi State University, cooperating with U.S. Department of Agriculture.

Mississippi is a good place to start because they instituted a statewide AR system in 1995. The above quote came from a study after the 2003 season when they noted significant reduction in antler size on state land.

Of course, on managed, groomed, and controlled land where we can literally "grow" deer, with food supplements, amended soils, etc. But can the average guy hunt there? NO.

Most of these places are locked down so only a few can hunt. And don't forget, those are our deer.

But what about the average guy who likes to hunt but does not have the where-with-all to own 400 acres, tons of cash to spend on food plots, or the time because he may be just a working guy with a family that loves to hunt, so he hunts on state land.

I really don't care about these holier than thou types...I care about the average guy and if biologists in Mississippi say that AR's have caused a decrease in antler size on their state land, then it would probably be the same here.

But I know it is just one paper.

There is an interesting study in Texas too, and it rings true. I'll try to dig it up if you want and post the url here so you can check it out.

You're right Doc, guys will flame me. But Somebody has to stand up to the so-called  big shots and Experts...and speak up for the average guy.

And you know what is driving this...the almighty buck...pardon the pun.

[wztirem]

Here is another take on AR's.  let us look at some facts. One: Over 80% of the land in this state is in privet hands. That means the land owners have to pay the ever-increasing taxes on the land they own. Therefore, what you have to ask do I have the right to tell someone how he or she can hunt on his or her land; as long as the way the rules are now written, they are doing nothing illegal.

Two: Let us look at the BUCK take for the last 5 years. The buck take has been increasing for the last 5 years and the percentage of 1.5 year olds has remained the same. This would suggest that not everyone who claims they are practicing in QDM is doing so. The data seems to say there is not a lot of support for AR’s in the state. If there were a lot of support for AR’s you would see a reduction in the buck harvest coming out of the percentage of 1.5 year olds taken and that is not happening.  The data was taken from the DEC annual harvest reports. I know what you are going to say the DECs data is not right. What I will tell you is unless you have state wide harvest data that you can prove is right then you have no proof there data is wrong, and if the DECs data is wrong whose fault is it when only 45% of us report are kills. This means the DEC has to use modeling to get a harvest number.

Larry-

I am not a big fan of AR, but the question you had about whether or not we can tell taxpaying landowners how to hunt on their own land has been answered years ago when the 3" antler rule was established and the seasons, and all the other regulations. Should we be adding to those restrictions? ..... Well that's another issue. I don't believe we should unless there is one huge, important, well documented and scientifically proven reason that involves the health and perpetuation of the species. I'm not sure the AR crowd has met that standard yet.

Your second point about how strong the convictions are of the QDM and AR proponents is a valid one ...... I think. I believe there is a huge difference between answering some kind of poll vs. the decisions we make out in the field when the deer steps out into the clear. I think also it is a lot easier to stand up for a concept as long as it is just a concept than it is when it is an actual law. Another thing is, just who is going to sit around with a bunch of other hunters and start preaching for killing 1.5 year old deer? So there may be a lot of hunters who are just saying what they believe their peers want to hear. So if the harvests don't reflect what we hear from hunters, I guess I'm not surprised. It kind of makes sense.

Doc

As the majority of huntable land in NY resides in private hands, let those owners of such lands impose antlers resticictionspon thosewho hunt such lands. Public lands should not be subjected to AR.

[Doc]

The question of AR will be debated for years and never have a unanimous opinion. Personally I don't really buy into the idea, but for me it is not an issue of very high priority when compared to a whole lot of other more basic deer management problems that NY has. It's just not a huge issue that I can get all excited about.

We don't even have a clue as to the real number of deer we have or the local deer densities. We have deer populations that seem to swing wildly from too few to too many on fairly regular cycles. It seems a bit premature to be worrying about how big the antlers are.....lol. But it does provide some interesting discussions.

Doc

[Buckstopshere]

Keith McCafferty is a retired deer biologist from Wisconsin. Here's what he had to say about ARs.

What kind of undesirable baggage comes with antler restrictions? Here’s  what  deer biologist Keith McCaffery says:

 

   

 

  "All Western states have tried antler restrictions in an effort to  increase the number of mature male mule deer and bull elk. All have now  discontinued them as statewide rules for two primary reasons.

 

  First, antler restrictions focused mortality so heavily on mature  animals that they were virtually extirpated. Better age structures were  found where harvests were spread across all age and antler classes.

 

  Secondly, states experienced an unacceptable level of accidental-illegal  kill of animals with wrong antler condition. E.g. – spikes were  regularly shot in Wisconsin prior to 1956 when only forked-bucks were  legal.

 

  A third problem with antler restrictions is that there is no easy way to  define an antler condition that will protect most young bucks without  the best-antlered yearlings still being harvested. Point restrictions  tend to protect only the smallest-antlered deer.

 

  A fourth problem with mandated antler restrictions is, what type of fine  should be imposed on, say, a 14-year old that shoots a deer of  sub-legal condition?

 

  Finally, the age structure resulting from antler restrictions is far  from “natural”, if that is a goal. This would be especially true in  heavily hunted states like Wisconsin. To produce a “natural” sex and age  structure in anuy deer herd one should “open the hunting season within 2  weeks of the peak of fawning and then shoot 40-80% of the current  year’s fawns – that’s how Nature did it.” (the late Dr. Tony Bubenik).  While biologically sound, few of us would be enthused with this type of  hunt."

(Maybe after what he said about shooting fawns... my call for shooting yearling bucks in high density areas, like in southern Allegany County is not quite so whacky sounding.)

 

[SteveB]

BSH - great article and followup. The Mississippi study was what really got my attention a few years ago. Ar by points at 1st glance seems logical. If anyone can look at it deeper without the attitude that we need change - good or not - it falls apart rapidly , especially as a statewide program.

[Doc]

Now there are some pretty heavy thoughts for the AR people to wrestle with. See, it's alright to hear from the other side once in a while ...... lol. Sure offers a lot to think about.

Doc

[Geno C]

A spike was said to be a deer with horrible genetics and was to weeded out of the herd due to a land owner / hunter not wanting that spike to breed a doe and pass those genes on to the next season. im not so sure i beleive this. i do beleive it is lacking a certain gene that makes it stand out but it is not uncommon to see a spike grow into a decent deer the follwoing year or even blow into a a nice buck by the 3rd or 4th year. It will grow and especially if there is addiquit food and nutrition.

i pass on the spikes. you also have to think when that spike was born, it can be a very recent birth thus having a small rack then the follwing year that paticular deer will be a 1 year old or just slight of that. i havnt read to much but  iwonder if it can be a good thing to see a very young deer be a spike already and not a button buck. It might have pretty decent genes after all. There 2 sides of that coin and there are plenty of oppinons on this topic im sure, each having a different outlook...

[SteveB]

A spike under a year old in hunting season is probably rarer then an albino.

i pass on the spikes.

I have to ask - will you shoot a 1 1/2 year old 4, 6 or 8 point?

If so, why do you pass a spike that is most likely the same age?

[Geno C]

A spike under a year old in hunting season is probably rarer then an albino.

i pass on the spikes.

I have to ask - will you shoot a 1 1/2 year old 4, 6 or 8 point?

If so, why do you pass a spike that is most likely the same age?

yes it is rare but you dont think its possible depending on the diet a deer may have at hand? maybe i worded that wrong,  i really mean a spike that maybe a year old...

I tend to lay off smaller deer and it would really depend on how my season is going all toegther to be honest. If i have not had many cracks at nice bucks and i feel my season coming to an end i would take a 1 1/2  4, 6 or 8 sure. However, its my perogative, i just do not shoot spike horns. To each is own and that something i just do not do. I do have the pleasure of seeing nice deer in the woods and i also spend enough time in my stands to do so. I tend to see smaller deer taken by hunters who either will shoot anything, have limited season due to work life or home life and tryuly want to put meet in the freezer.

that statement about not shooting spikes was in no way shape or form knocking any hunter who does. I know plenty who do.

So to answer your question, NO i do not shoot them.

do you?

[SteveB]

yes it is rare but you dont think its possible depending on the diet a deer may have at hand? maybe i worded that wrong,  i really mean a spike that maybe a year old...

I think regardless of diet, 99% or better of the spikes you see are at least a 1 1/2 yo. A fawn with spikes about never happens.

If i have not had many cracks at nice bucks and i feel my season coming to an end i would take a 1 1/2  4, 6 or 8 sure

.

So to answer your question, NO i do not shoot them.

do you?

So which is it? Either you shoot 1 1/2 bucks or you don't. I really don't care either way - just trying to figure out what you are saying. It appears that you will shoot a nicer 1 1/2 to fill a tag, but not a spike 1 1/2. That doesn't make sense to me - again, I don't care, just trying to understand.

And no, I don't shoot 1.5 or even anyhing I think is 3.5 - by choice, but I have a lot of opportunities and tags for does.

.

[Buckstopshere]

If you really wanted to have bigger bucks,...as a goal for AR, wouldn't you want to shoot the spikes of the same yearling age class as the best of the lot, like six-points and once in a blue moon, a yearling eight-point? Why shoot the best off before they can really turn into something and not shoot off the mediocre, those sixes and eights may sure be dandy bucks in four years....But...if you SHOULD shoot a yearling, why not prune out the herd?

So if you follow my reasoning, don't the AR proponents have it upside down?

In other words: Don't shoot off the best of the little guys. Give them a chance, I say. Shoot off the spikes.

By the way, thanks SteveB.

As far as spikes go, I have only seen a couple "spikes" that are actually button bucks... that have these little weird spikes on their heads. These are fawns. They are not wearing the smooth polished spikes like a yearling buck has, but these little nubby things.

Probably some of you other guys have seen them too. They seem different than polished antlers. I haven't come across one in quite a few years. If is see one, I'll shoot it and post the photos. You know I'm not kidding.

I have not come across a study that fawn bucks with little spike bone things on their heads grow into the best, larger rackers...dominant bucks.

Spikes on fawns may be just an aging phenomena, such as something that peaks too early, a hormone imbalance.

By the way, I would have thought that there would have been more pro-AR guys posting here from the poll results...

Chime in.

That's the only way we learn and hone our edge.

[Buckstopshere]

Oh, I forgot to say that Doc, I agree with your point that AR's  may not be the most important thing we can discuss, frankly, there are some other deeper issues like the dialectical construct between growing your deer and hunting deer.

But even bigger than AR's or hunting vs. growing, may be the access issue.

All the deer are owned by the people of the state, right?

The landowners only own the land, not animal one, no matter how much they post it, how many foodplots they plant, or how many $$$$ they pour into the soil, Period.

And yet people..the people of the state are not allowed to hunt their animals.

Without getting on a soapbox...I think that large property landowners who have carved out their own pluralistic philosophy for hunting (one property it it QDM,) one is only bucks, one is no doe hunting, the next it is "brown it's down," the next property is state land, (just for kicks) and next to that is an anti-hunter who is a college professor and owns 200 acres!

Different properties. Different management schemes!! Pluralism in the deer woods. And it goes on and on in reality.

If we wanted to really increase our hunter ranks we would stop being so selfish and greedy and allow those less fortunate than ourselves to hunt with us on our properties. I guarantee there would be more hunters...

Stop bemoaning the drop off in hunter numbers when in fact, we are the reason.

it's getting late, and I'm old.

[Geno C]

yes it is rare but you dont think its possible depending on the diet a deer may have at hand? maybe i worded that wrong,  i really mean a spike that maybe a year old...

I think regardless of diet, 99% or better of the spikes you see are at least a 1 1/2 yo. A fawn with spikes about never happens.

If i have not had many cracks at nice bucks and i feel my season coming to an end i would take a 1 1/2  4, 6 or 8 sure

.

So to answer your question, NO i do not shoot them.

do you?

So which is it? Either you shoot 1 1/2 bucks or you don't. I really don't care either way - just trying to figure out what you are saying. It appears that you will shoot a nicer 1 1/2 to fill a tag, but not a spike 1 1/2. That doesn't make sense to me - again, I don't care, just trying to understand.

And no, I don't shoot 1.5 or even anyhing I think is 3.5 - by choice, but I have a lot of opportunities and tags for does.

.

i thought i about summed it up on your question Steve... I guess not. I usually never shoot year and half old deer "unless" if yopu read my answer in the last post.  In any event i agree with you, i enjoy taking does. I try to take a few does each year. I dont know if it just me but sometimes during the rut i find the does especially the ones that get in close a bit more of a challenge. they seem to be a little more alert then the bucks during the rut. sometimes a little more challenging. Not sure if it just me who thinks this...

and again, i dont want to come off the wrong way, i was not trying to stir the pot, i may have been unclear on what i was thinking...

[SteveB]

Thanks Geno - wasn't trying to argue - just to understand.

[Fairgame]

I am a land owner in a AR zone. I am pro AR cause of how I see that it has been working.  I dont shoot any year and a half old bucks not even the basket eight on the last day I let them walk.  Me and my family own alot of land where we hunt and we always have friends and family that arent as fortunate as us hunt with us.  If my land is everyone elses land then why would I want to buy any? Have the government buy it back and make it all state land.  People buy their own land to get away from all the BS in state land and the reasons why is posted is #1 cause its mine #2 safety.  If I dont know someone and I see them on my property hunting I ask them to leave.  I dont think there is anything selfish about it.  If someone is fortunate enough to buy hunting property so that they can do what they want on it why does it make them selfish?  I dont own the deer but I do own the property!! My land, My stands, and I invite who I want to invite. Not who wants to invite themselves.

[burmjohn]

I have to agree with Fairgame on this one.  For the last 15 years I've hunting on property that was not mine.  It was not "public" land it was family and friends land.  I was told what I can and can't take as guest on that property, because they practiced their on QDM before the state imposed AR came into effect.  And I obviously respected that, not only because I wanted to return to that property year after year but because I believed in what they were trying to accomplish.  Anyways, after AR came into place, we noticed larger bucks roaming the 55 acres.  Why? I'd have to attribute it to the WMU wide AR restrictions imposed.  Doing any AR on your own land is great, but unless you have a crazy amount of land and or in an area where there is not much hunting around you I am not sure what effect it has.  None the less we have been seeing bigger bucks on the property the last 3 years.

Now I am fortunate enough (as of this year!) to own with my father and brother 100 acres where we can practice our own QDM, have food plots and also be in a AR restricted zone.  Actually right next to fairgame   From the trail cam pics I am seeing, I'm impressed! And I can't wait to get out there this season.  To add to what he said, if I see anyone on MY property, first thing I am doing is collecting their LIC#.  My family and I are putting a lot of $ into the property, from plots, to general woods maintenance, an of course taxes and I'll be damned if anyone else is going to be hunting it that is not invited.  While the deer can roam, and are not the property owners, the land is. 

To sum this up, I am bringing 3+ Hunters on MY property that have never deer hunted before, and now will have the opportunity to do so. And providing they follow my rules, they will do so for many years to come.  Chalk 3 more up to license fee's for me. 

[SteveB]

Not to speak for BSH, but I would say you guys are not really the target of his post.

You do allow your land to be hunted and bring people. There are more then a few qdm operations that so tightly restrict access as to be rediculus. Not advocating forcing them to do otherwise - just pointing out what could be the biggest obstacle to future hunting - access.

[burmjohn]

SteveB, I guess you may be right, but even so, getting a few guys together and getting a piece of hunting land isn't that hard.  I've seen some pretty affordable pieces of land while we did our search, split that across a few guys and you got yourself a nice place to hunt.    Regardless, public hunting land is there, all over actually, you just can't be lazy in your search.

Regardless, if you own the land, pay the taxes, you can do whatever you want.  I know the neighbor next to me doesnt allow any hunting, and is dead set against it. Has over 100 acres too. And I have no problem with that, why? Its his property he can do whatever he wants to. So if people want to practice whatever they want on their on property why should anyone have a problem with that? They have every right to.

[Buckstopshere]

Exactly Steve.

Around me, down here in southern Allegany County, there are landowners who have tied up their lands and do not let anyone hunt on it but them. I mean, 400 acres...tighter than a drum... and they even leased more! Thirty years ago, 20 maybe 30 guys hunted on those properties. Now it is down to just a couple guys.

All I am saying is don't bemoan the drop off in hunter numbers when we are the major cause. It's our greed. We know that if we let other hunters on our land, our success rate will fall and there is one more person to "manage."

And I am as guilty of it too, owning a hunting property and a young man with a family asked to hunt it, I told him "No."

Not meaning to hijack the thread...this is certainly grist for another one, just agreeing with Doc's earlier post that there are other issues...

[Doc]

Strangely enough, I too have been seeing larger racked deer in recent years. I have also been seeing a lot more of these larger deer being taken in the area. Significantly so, in fact. The only thing is that I have been seeing them on state land where there is no QDM or AR. So apparently all such changes are not always due to any particular management style. There are so many things that influence the quantity and quality of deer herds from weather all the way to hunting pressure, that I would be hesitant to point at any one thing.

As far as posted property is concerned, I have seen it happen in two for two situations where posted signs were required because of the lack of respect people have for free open hunting lands and/or landowner invites.

My Father was the first in our family to encounter it. He invited a couple co-workers out to hunt his property. Those people began to invite their friends and relatives out without first obtaining permission. Within just a few years it all came to a head when he had trouble getting out of his own driveway because of all of the parked cars. He had to resort to stopping each hunter on their way out of the woods and informing them that they were no longer allowed in. The following day he began the process of posting the entire perimeter of the property. As it turned out, the original invitees no longer were coming out to hunt, but their friends and their friends friends (basically complete strangers to my Dad) began to over-run the place.

Apparently I thought I knew better and did the same thing with exactly the same results on my property. That all came to a screeching halt when one morning I looked out the window to see several cars parked along side the road with a bunch of orange coats bailing out. From the direction they were headed, I could see exactly what was happening. They intended to drive the 1000' of thicket in front of my house. Of course I went down and put a stop to that in a not to courteous way and then found out that the leader of the bunch was the brother-in-law of one of the guys from work that I invited out. That did it! the posted signs went up and they will stay up. Hunting access is limited to family and a few friends that have received some rather rigid rules about the terms of their invite.

So at least some of the posted land that you see is the result of hunters taking advantage of landowner's generosity.

Doc

[Buckstopshere]

Right Doc, that's what I mean about "managing" hunters. It is a pain, but that is what it will take to increase hunter participation.

When I go out in the woods, the last thing I want to do is "manage" people, but in fact, that is what the sport needs.

Deer hunting is not so much about managing deer, it's more about managing people.

I understand your Dad's frustration, and it has been played out a million times and all good reasons to post the property to all hunters.

But that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

If we (and I mean WE....me too) each and every one of us, would take the time to allow others to hunt our property, help them be successful, in one word, Share...then the ranks of the hunters would dramatically increase.

I get a bit tired hearing the moaning about fewer deer hunters when it is coming from other hunters who do nothing to help the sport by stretching out a hand to hunters less fortunate than themselves.

I know of two guys who open up their property and take the time to manage the other hunters and actually enjoy all the gregariousness, and riding herd over the young and inexperienced...  and what a great gang of guys in each camp.

It is not "open" hunting on either property by any means, but each one is full of hunters during both the archery and regular seasons.

[Fairgame]

Another thing is that alot of kids these days do not get to enjoy the outdoors.  If I have kids reguardless if its a boy or girl I will do my best to expose them to the outdoors.  My wife knows she has no say in that, its my passion.  It would be up to me and the kids weather they are going to do it or not.

How many hunters out there do not take their kids with them for one reason or another.  Maybee the wife dosent like hunting, or they have xbox or wii. 

My wife dosent hunt be she understands my passion for the outdoors, God bless her, she NEVER comes between me and my hunting cause she knows how important it is to me.  During the hunting season my wife is lucky to see me a total of ten days out of the 60 or so days cause I'm in NY most of the time at our place.