Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[TheHunter]

I remember this was a hot topic in the past, but lets keep it nice and clean :-*

Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts? Is it working? Do bucks that are spikes grow to be bigger bucks with bigger racks next year?

[Fairgame]

I'm almost scared to answer.  I own property in an antler restriction zone and hunt it.  In the last few years I have seen a big improvement on the size of the bucks we are seeing and harvesting.  I do believe a spike one year will be more than a spike the following year as long as it has the proper nutrition for it to grow a bigger rack.  I also believe that the lottery dmps in our area has helped controll the amount of does and fawns killed in a particular area. 

[A6A6]

I think its a good idea.

if it was imposed over the state starting this season, it would be a bad year , but the next year and every one after that would be better and better.

Im not saying ive never shot a spike or a less than 3pt rule buck, because i have , and I dont discredit anyone who does. I know the feeling of waiting all year to hunt , and waiting till the last day and finally , the only deer to be seen is a small spike buck. And you give in to the beating of your heart and take it. I know the feelin all too well.

And then the thought of passing on the buck , and only to think about your Asshole neighbor. We all have one. You know , the guy who shoots everythingand anything. So you say to yourself , "he is gonna kill it so why not me ?? " yup....  been there done that..

my other concern is , heard mixed things about a reports from pennsylvania. they have had a pilot program about immature deer before NY did , and some say its good some say its bad.. IDK...

I think aside from antler restrictions . another important issue is food..

Most NY deer live high and low in the mountains of the catskill and adirondak and cant find a reliable food source except for farms and hunters food plots.

if each of us planted a food plot on whatever parcel of land we owned , we would grow bigger bucks..

nutrition is key. mix that in with a antler restriction program and youll be producing larger bucks by the end of this year.

[burmjohn]

A6A6 i couldn't agree with you more... I've hunted with those "Its Brown Its Down" and mostly with those who hunt for meat and respect a maturing buck.

More food plots, that the best idea since sliced bread.  Healthier deer, bigger, stronger deer!  As I said in other threads, my plan once the cabin is built is to have a few plots on the land... Some for deer, some for bedding and some for turkey and other birds. 

[SteveB]

I think it is a fine voluntary program.

[burmjohn]

Also, since I've hunting in Pine Bush almost my whole life, the deer there tend to be smaller.  I've had a few bucks in my sights over the past few years that have been spikes, 3's and 4's....  The following year there was a nice big 6 walking the grounds, and I am pretty sure it was one of the deers that was passed on because of the restrictions.  Why? Because it had the same marks as the deer we saw in the previous seasons, a white blotch on his back.  But this is a controversial topic, as many say that the spikes are always spikes... But I saw otherwise.

[burmjohn]

I think it is a fine voluntary program.

I respect that, but the problem is if its voluntary, you'd never know if it was working.  What are you feelings on the subject? Could a spike be a 6 pointer the next year?

[Fairgame]

John,

If you are use to seeing only spikes and 3s and 4s.  I believe with your new property you will be amazed at what you will see.  You are now in an antler restricted zone and you will probably get use to seeing 8 9 and ten pointers.  No joke!!

[burmjohn]

Well neighbor, I cant tell you how excited I am.  Looking forward to hitting a few up with you during the season too now that I met someone basically around the block!

[SteveB]

Spikes for the most part are late born bucks here in CNY and most likely will mature. But nearly 60% of the 1.5 bucks in the 3 wmu's around me are 6 pt or better. AR would target the best of the 1.5's and protect the older bucks that never will be 6pt or better. Net result is about the same # of 1.5 being killed.  The DEC has neither the resources or methods to even give an accurate accounting of the overall population. They is no way they could accurately evaluate a program like AR. PA after several years still cannot reach consensus on their AR experiment. And Mississippi has seen hygrading effect their bucks to the point where 3.5 and 4.5 bucks are averaging significantly smaller average racks.

[burmjohn]

SteveB good points.  I'd love to see some more data / info on that.  Unfortunately like you said the DEC or any management agency for any state would have a tough time of trying to gauge if the restrictions are working.  I happened to be one guy, one example.. but as we know majority rules, and my case might not be the majority.  The problem lies where people dont report or dont accurately report what they harvest, and that will never, ever change.

[SteveB]

Hunters that don't report are a huge problem and we will never be able to get the info needed to accurately attempt to manage numbers for the habitat. If that could be done, then discussion would become feasible on attempting to balance the age structure.

PM me your email address and I will send you the report on the stats I gave.

Thanks

[A6A6]

Def. I agree with FAIRGAME>

this year you will produce monsters.

and hopefully will pass on the genetics for the next 100 years to come.

I do however believe that there is some truth to the sayinig " a Spike will always be a Spike" not in the literal sense but more in the theory behind it.

Some deer will pass on the small thin antler gene or small bodies gene regardless of what they eat. Others can eat less nourishing food and have big thick mass beams..

Its like the type 1 and type 2 muscle twitch fibers in humans.

Some of us will be more prone to building muscle with less protein and nutrients and  some of us will have to eat 3 times the amount of pretein to break even with the other type...

I hope i dont sound like i am contradicting myself.

What I am trying to say is that a healthy Deer heard isnt a Black and White answer such as only Antler Restrictions or Just food plots.

There is alot of grey area' s. Some of which , we can help improve with food plots and leaving brushy area's for bedding and some of them are just heriditary and genetic and we cant DIRECTLY change them but indirectly over time, (lots of time)  I do believe with time nutrition a heard will improve itself.

[Fairgame]

I believe this is the seventh or eight year of ars in PA.  I am on the border of PA. What seperates us is the Delaware river.  I went to the taxadermist near my place to pick up my mount and I was amazed at what I saw.  I asked the taxadermist if these big buck have always been around and his response to me was  We would get one in once in a while but not like it is now,  since ars have been in place the number of big bucks has gone crazy.  He had 160 inch deer hanging on the wall that were shot in PA.  I was amazed.  He said a majority of the big deer he had were all killed within 7-10 miles from his shop (which borders Pa).  It is incredible.

I hated the fact that I wasnt able to harvest a buck for a few years, but now I so glad it happened.

[burmjohn]

A6A6 very true..  It all comes down to more food plots   To bad there wasn't an easy way to restrict by age, I guess that could solve the problem.

[A6A6]

thats another thing i been trying to figure out lately.

aging the deer..

i look for all the tell tale signs but unless its enough trophy to bring to the taxidermist and ask him, its all guessing for me and ill never know if im right or wrong..

[Doc]

Whenever most AR proponents start talking about AR, they speak of shoving it on the entire state regardless of the factors of habitat, climate impacts and other things that determine deer density and quality. When I hear this, my mind immediately goes to the hunters and hunting conditions in the Adirondacks. I know there are a lot of areas there and probably other places as well that have about the worst deer habitat, coupled with significant winter mortality. Frankly, I can't see adding any further restrictions on those folks. Also, I know there are places where DMPs are extremely scarce and perhaps in some areas non-existant. The permit allocations in those areas are low because there simply are very few deer there. To slap restrictions on those people in those areas would mean that perhaps the only deer they see in a season, or two, or more, would be illegal to shoot except for one or two very very lucky individuals. Without a doe option, and a situation where almost all of the bucks would be illegal to shoot, I'm afraid we would likely see more hunters frustrated out of our ranks. We would be in effect saying, "Go ahead and spend your hard-earned cash on our recently over-inflated licenses, but you really have no chance of harvesting anything".

So, I am not interested at all in any kind of AR that ignores herd conditions. AR, if implemented, has to be done so with some element of common sense involved. Just as any other management tool, some actual attempts at determining where and how to use it has to take place. This is not a regulation where one-size-fits-all.

Doc

[Caveman]

Also, since I've hunting in Pine Bush almost my whole life, the deer there tend to be smaller.  I've had a few bucks in my sights over the past few years that have been spikes, 3's and 4's....  The following year there was a nice big 6 walking the grounds, and I am pretty sure it was one of the deers that was passed on because of the restrictions.  Why? Because it had the same marks as the deer we saw in the previous seasons, a white blotch on his back.  But this is a controversial topic, as many say that the spikes are always spikes... But I saw otherwise.

You hunt Pine Bush? Do you mean Pine Bush in Albany NY, because I just moved to within 5 minutes of there a few weeks ago from Buffalo.  I'm planning on hunting Pine Bush this fall and I've been looking for some tips.  (Don't worry, I'll try not to tag all the monsters before you get a chance)

[burmjohn]

Wildcats160  - No, the actual town of Pine Bush, its off route 17, about 10 miles from Middletown.

[burmjohn]

Check out the other post I put up about the study that was one on Whitetail Deer in Central New York

[Larry]

AR’s this is one of my favorite subjects. This is going to sound like I am not in favor of QDM, but I am in favor of QDM. What I am not in favor of is forcing the way I like to hunt on someone else.

Now let us look at some facts. One: Over 80% of the land in this state is in privet hands. That means the land owners have to pay the ever-increasing taxes on the land they own. Therefore, what you have to ask do I have the right to tell someone how he or she can hunt on his or her land; as long as the way the rules are now written, they are doing nothing illegal.

Two: Let us look at the BUCK take for the last 5 years. The buck take has been increasing for the last 5 years and the percentage of 1.5 year olds has remained the same. This would suggest that not everyone who claims they are practicing in QDM is doing so. The data seems to say there is not a lot of support for AR’s in the state. If there were a lot of support for AR’s you would see a reduction in the buck harvest coming out of the percentage of 1.5 year olds taken and that is not happening.  The data was taken from the DEC annual harvest reports. I know what you are going to say the DECs data is not right. What I will tell you is unless you have state wide harvest data that you can prove is right then you have no proof there data is wrong, and if the DECs data is wrong whose fault is it when only 45% of us report are kills. This means the DEC has to use modeling to get a harvest number.

[Doc]

In general, I pretty much agree with what you are saying (at least in principal), but I will say that it is not a big issue either way with me as long as the implementation of AR is tied to some determination that the deer population is sufficient that the imposition of AR does not pose a level of frustration that will drive out more hunters. If you have an area that is issuing few or no antlerless permits, then that to me is a sign that the herd is in such a shape that you should not be further restricting buck takes. I don't think we want to be in the position of making harvest potential equal to zero with out excitement to strap restrictions onto everyone's hunting.

AR will not change the way I hunt or the standards that I long ago established for my own hunting. I hunt in an area where deer populations are high enough so I can be a bit chosey if I want. That does not mean that I want to get into the business of all hunters or that I want to impose those standards on hunters where conditions may not be so good.

Doc

[Daveboone]

Certain areas I think it is OK, (high deer population densities) but where the pop. is traditionaly low, I dont think I am for it. Last year I shot a 3 year old buck that had small forks. big body, no antler. I have seen and shot many bucks in the area similar. The nutrition and genetics dictate other. I have several fine racks, and dont really care anymore. I want my venison, so that is my (and many others) concern. I would rather see a one antlered deer per hunter limit per season. That would spread the take out to more hunters, and as many bucks are taken by the same multi season hunters, would also likely result in more larger heads.

Bow and ml hunters can still take a 2nd deer, but not an antlered one.. Perhaps a 2nd buck earn a buck, but tagging a doe...

[Doc]

I wouldn't have any problems with limiting hunters to one antlered deer per year. That would do a few things.

Most hunters would try to make sure that that their one buck was as good a one as they figured they could get. That would become a defacto voluntary AR where hunters would be motivated to pass on some bucks in hopes of getting a larger one.

It's a limit that could be put on any area regardless of deer density, without causing anyone any real hardship. Also it might eliminate some of massive buck slaughters that occur with some of the larger and more effective drives.

It would also help in sharing a resource that is smaller than the number of hunters and would actually amount to more hunters having a possibility of succeeding at harvesting a buck without actually increasing the buck take. That sounds like a winner for just about everyone.

Such a limit would also improve the doe take. Without the option of shooting more than one buck hunters would be more likely to fill antlerless permits. That may not make all hunters in all areas happy, but would help the DEC with their management goals.

Frankly I think the idea has more positives than negatives.

Doc

[crokit]

I'm in favor of it.  Making it an individual thing doesn't work, nor make sense.  MHO