Doc
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Everything posted by Doc
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Just remember that what's on top is not necessarily what is underneath test holes are a good idea. The first thing to do is to take a peek. Finding water in the test holes as in springs and such is not necessarily good news because that is a sign of gravel (leaching dirt) that isn't good in a pond. Note the water in this test hole we actually moved the pond because of this hole. Finally it takes the shape of a pond. Spring run-off does a good job of filling the pond. It also sets up some concerns for overflow and potential disaster. Be sure to check what is below the pond in case of a washout....lol. Lookin' good ... eh? Well, maybe in the summer it doesn't look so good. Yup, it was a "leaker", test holes and all. Apparently there was some gravel layer that was a bit to close to the bottom of the pond. Too bad because there was a lot of clay for quite a depth. After watching this disaster for 3 years hoping it would self-heal with silt, it became obvious that it was going to make a great cattail garden and mosquito home. Hey the frogs liked it. Well, I didn't take any pictures of the last step which was to exercise the guy's guarantee to fill it back in for free if the pond failed. But now a bunch of years later, it's as if that fiasco never happened. The guy who did the work has done hundreds of ponds locally. In fact that is all he does for a living, and he really knows his stuff. And he did take all the precautions but there can be sneaky gravel veins that can do a great job of draining ponds. The area has successful pond right across the highway, just a mere couple hundred yards away and there is a swamp within 50 yards. But like I said above, what you see on top the ground doesn't indicate what is under the surface.
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Ha-ha-ha..... and do you suppose they make an entry in their journal for all the other deer to read: "Today, a special kind of dog ran by me and didn't try to eat me. We can now ignore all dogs". Ok, a little unnecessary sarcasm there, but exactly how intelligent do you think these critters are. Since few of them live past a year and a half, do you really believe that they apparently cram that level of logic and analysis into that short time. I guess I am a bit skeptical. Yes if they receive repetitive daily input, like farm equipment or some guy doing his chores every day at the same time and in the same way, they may become conditioned to semi-ignore that stuff. But when they are frequently pursued by dog-like creatures, I have to wonder if their brain can sort out the intentions based on species. Maybe they can, but I am not sure that we aren't giving their intelligence a bit more credit than actually exists.
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Ok ..... Whatever ..... but at least that does answer the question of how you account for the missing skull ... lol. I was just curious.
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Yeah, that's better. Rather than trying to hide the data, they actually gave some meaningful numbers. Basically, this model gets about 500 ft pounds (and since they didn't tie that to any distance, I'll assume that's muzzle energy). Who knows what that number would be one or two hundred yards out. But anyway, it is something that you can rough out some crude comparisons with. So anyway, how does that compare with a low end deer rifle. I picked a .243 with a 100 grain spire. With that bullet loaded to be going 2800 fps, 200 yards downrange (not at the muzzle) this wimpy deer load is delivering 1855 foot-pounds of energy. That's almost 4 times the energy from a rifle that is at the bottom of the list for me to use on deer. I guess you can conclude what you want from all of that, but for me I think I have made up my mind about whether I will be using one on deer or not. Is 500 ft-lbs enough? I guess it all depends on what you find acceptable. I doubt that I will be trading in my .270 for one of these things ..... lol. -
No, that is exactly what I was asking about ...... the 16" thing.
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Good question. An even better question ...... How do you score two separate antlers? What assumptions about pedicle spread and the angles that the antlers sat on the skull (that you don't have) to establish the spread elements of the score? I always wondered that when people find sheds and claim a certain score. Anybody know?
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Pick one. Anyone that you claim is a good deer-getter. It would be nice if the manufacturers of these guns would supply that data all together in one document or book to assist prospective customers in making a proper selection, But so far I have not seen any of that kind of data for even one model. I'm just curious if any of the deer hunting air guns is even in the ballpark with their gun powder brothers. Show me the data. Hell, show me anything that describes the terminal energy at various distances. How else do you make an intelligent decision about these things?
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It is only hunters against hunters if you want to turn it into that. My responses have consistently been aimed at one piece of comparative data that helps to contemplate the legitimate place of air guns for deer hunting. The interesting part is that that question is met like I was asking for U.S. government classified information. Hell, we even have you telling me that I have made up my mind and now an implication that people who ask such questions are engaging in "hunter against hunter" mentality. We have people turning it into a ballistics discussion, as though because a projectile powered by air has some secret ballistic edge over gunpowder. I have to admit that I am completely baffled by the reaction. A simple question and such crazy irrational reactions.
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I haven't seen anywhere where anyone was arguing projectile ballistics and design. I thought the discussion was about the propellant system and it's effectiveness. I am assuming that the air gun people understand projectile performance and design as well as anyone. What I have been consistently asking about is terminal energy numbers at various distances such that a comparison of powder driven projectiles and air driven projectiles can be compared. Apples to apples people. I want to see some energy figures so I can consult my reloading book and compare it to performance values of known deer rifle calibers and loads. That seems to be something that nobody has found anywhere, or doesn't want to talk about for some reason.
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Lol ..... Oh, and you read minds too. I haven't made up my mind about anything regarding this issue. All of my comments are simply asking for some pertinent information so a choice can be made. And you pretend like terminal energy doesn't even enter into the discussion, as you engage in the doubletalk dance. It could be that we both agree on air guns if you could move into an actual discussion of the issue rather than wasting your time playing mind-reading games.
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I think this attitude about the quality of the hunt and some of the aesthetic requirements of the act of hunting, is in the minority, but I do share those in those requirements when it comes to my hunting. For me there is an atmosphere that has to exist before I enjoy a hunt. I couple the activity to a sense of history and tradition, and the kill is secondary to the authenticity of the experience. I don't like to hear neighbors arguing in the background. I don't like hearing radios and TVs blaring. I don't want to see a neighbor walking about in his pajamas to pick up the morning paper.....lol. Also, knowing that deer almost never fall down dead where shot with an arrow. I do worry about ugly situations of bloody deer dying in some rather intrusive places. I am concerned about uncomfortable confrontations with irate parents when the deer drops in a neighbor-kids sandbox. I am not really all that fond of making my hunting a public spectacle. I have no problem with those that do, but it just is not my thing.
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Doves seen per hour in Blinds across NY
Doc replied to mike rossi's topic in Small Game and Predator Hunting
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Doves seen per hour in Blinds across NY
Doc replied to mike rossi's topic in Small Game and Predator Hunting
I have to admit that I have zero interest in ever hunting those skinny little critters, but I also have to admit to damn little knowledge of dove hunting. So, I'm about to ask an off-topic dumb question displaying my complete ignorance of dove hunting. Is this the kind of thing that you hunt like pheasants by walking through a field and flushing them, or do you sit in a blind and wait for a bunch of them to fly by. I know, it's a dumb question, but I have had zero exposure to hunting doves and hope that someone will indulge this one small (off topic) question for my enlightenment. -
In other words, you have no energy data to offer either. What a batch of nonsensical double talk. Energy is not the whole story, but it is the major factor when assessing effectiveness of any firearm. And to try to conduct a discussion without that primary piece of information, is just an admission that you really don't know what you are talking about.
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I don't know how I would feel about someone hunting with hounds on the night before in an area that I was going to try to deer hunt the next day. I think I would be against it. Personally, I try to minimize my own intrusions into a bucks stomping grounds, and do all I can to make him think he's got the whole area to himself. Is that necessary? ..... I don't know. It is just one of those things that seems to make some sense given the mindset of adult bucks. I'm sure a guy could come to my house with a copy of this study, and I still would refuse permission for him to run his hounds through a sanctuary that I had been so fussy about avoiding myself.
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And so you people are trying to tell me that you can have a discussion about killing capabilities without including the most important aspect ..... terminal energy. Well, look at all the time and paper the reloading books wasted on charting all of that for each load. You cannot have a serious discussion of killing capabilities of any gun without including energy. That really isn't even arguable. And yet it is a feature of these air guns that no one has even brought up here. I'm not saying that the discussion is over once terminal energy has been established, but without that data, the discussion hasn't even seriously begun.
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I was talking to the theater owner in Canandaigua, and he said he was getting a lot of negative comments from customers about the graphic nature of The Revenant. Apparently there were some scenes that were a bit too much for them to handle....lol.
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I would guess this would wind up depending on whether the deer has had a history with deer-chasing dogs (or possibly even coyotes). I'm sure they soon realize that a pack of dogs (or coyotes) can be a relentless pursuit that they have to take seriously. I have seen deer that have encountered dogs Sometimes they elude them, but not until they find out how difficult it can be. And sometimes have the chunks of meat missing from their rump to remind them. And occasionally the results are even more devastating. It all comes down to the fact that the deer have no idea what motives the dogs have in mind when they hear them chasing after a coon or whatever. They don't understand dog talk, and likely don't stick around to find out ..... lol.
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Actually it serves no purpose to be talking in terms of speed or caliber. It all boils down to energy delivered at the various distances. That is the true measure of the effectiveness of guns. So far I have not heard anyone talk about that important factor. Not even any discussion of projectile mass. So all the discussion about how lethal these guns are, argues the point without one mention of the true criteria that matters.
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Absolutely correct. The whole theory of the way these implements kill is different.
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I guess it must vary depending on where you are and maybe even the kinds of pressure they receive. We don't have any of those "tame" deer .... lol. When they see a hunter, they know exactly what to do. I have seen them hold tight in cover and let you walk incredibly close to them. Most of the time that tactic works great for them. I have also seen them sprint off a ways and then check you out. I guess those are the curious ones that think that they have put enough distance between you that they can out-run you. But other than parks and urban situations, I have never seen any that became domesticated by armies of people traipsing through the woods. I suspect that many of those that might look like they are getting conditioned to people are likely fawns that have no base of experience with people to decide exactly what to do.
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Caffeine-free diet Coke is the best I can muster any more with the armful of pills that they have me munching down daily alcohol is not really something that I should be getting into.....ha-ha. Boy do I ever get a hankerin' for a beer .... any beer, especially in the summer........ lol.
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So, I guess all those white tails and butts that I see when I'm taking one of my many hikes in the woods is just the deer ignoring me because they have gotten accustomed to my presence. I'm not sure I really buy into all of that. I believe that I have seen evidence contrary to that on the state land where they have installed a maze of mountain bike trails that are constantly used all summer by bikers and hikers. I really have not seen deer standing there ignoring me (at any distance) over there even if I stay on one of those trails.
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This is another one of those areas where we have new technology entering the scene with way too little data or empirical information to make any kind of educated judgment. Consider for a moment how many decades of proven results it has taken for hunters to get confidence in each caliber to establish solid expectations and confidence in each deer caliber. It should not be surprising that when this new weapon comes on the scene with performance specs that are so far short of traditional norms, there would be some skepticism. Calibers and loads are a hotly contested subject even now, and along comes somebody (a government body at that) that is pushing an energy delivery system that is far below anything ever considered adequate. I don't see how it could be anything but controversial. So given enough time perhaps it will prove itself adequate. But until all those mass trials (years of results) by hunters, the question of whether it should be considered to be a good clean deer harvesting weapon, the arguments will go on. I just hope I don't crack a tooth on some projectile that couldn't make it any farther than half way through one of the roasts that somebody shot up before I got to the next deer that I shoot ..... lol. Sorry, but such jokes are going to have to be put up with until the air rifle eventually wins confidence in the deer hunting world (if it indeed ever does).
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I haven't seen any ice that I would dare walk out on yet. The idea of going through and coming up disoriented and under the ice is not something I would want to check out. Especially with the paralyzing effects of hypothermia.
