Doc

Every year lately, it gets quieter and quieter (both the opener and the other major deer hunting days). This Thanksgiving was ridiculous. Thanksgiving morning used to be one of the more active deer hunting days. A lot of guys would just start the day with huge drives, and deer would be running everywhere. This year I heard a total of three shots all morning. I don't know what to make of it, but in my hunting area, it sure isn't a lack of deer. Doc

So there you have it. Anyone who expects the gunners to quietly sit by and have their season hacked on can read some of these replies and start getting just an inkling of the firestorm that would result ..... lol.

I'm not sure just where deer rank on a scale of intelligence. I suspect they are probably on the same level as a goat. We used to have a couple of goats. They watched me go in and out of a gate to their pasture. I had a hook up about chest high that kept the gate closed and locked. One day I looked back and saw one of the goats with her front feet up on the gate, picking away at the hook with its mouth. I remember thinking that that took quite a bit of observation, and interpretation and actual logic on their part to figure out that the hook was what was actually keeping them in there. That's pretty darn smart for an animal. So is a deer as smart as a goat? ....... maybe .... probably. They may very well have the ability to figure some things out that we don't give them credit for.

Well, at least that's the way I and a some others view hunting ..... a fun and enjoyable experience ...... recreation. I know some people go at it like it's their livelihood or some measure of their worth. They seem to lose all perspective .... at least in my view they do. I guess each person has to get out of hunting whatever they need to get.

Lol..... sounds more like the sound of you not thinking.

I assume from the title and content of this topic that ARs are involved in this discussion a little bit. I'm pretty sure that's what we have been discussing.

I think that one part of that sentence is the main reason why NYS will never see a cut in gun season length. Somebody has to do the job of controlling deer population. We bowhunters are not going to get that job done. Our efficiency just doesn't rank up there with gun hunters. If you pay real close attention you will see that the DEC has been championing moves that increase doe harvests. They are not interested in ideas that limit doe harvests. So even if we could all somehow agree that a shorter gun season is a good thing, getting anyone with any authority to even listen to such a proposal seems like an impossibility. I suspect that we will see just the opposite as it is far more likely that we will see incursions into bow seasons of various kinds of firearms and other types of higher efficiency weapons. Another aspect to consider is that there also is a bit of a combat setting when we start proposing that seasons be re-adjusted to further favor bowhunters while at the same time suggesting that gun-hunters get stiffed. If ever it comes down to a battle between the gun hunters and the bowhunters, I'll let you all guess just who the winner of that would be. And I think I can guess which side the DEC and politicians would be on. That's a fight I don't ever want to see started. Doc

I'm thinking that there are a lot of hunters just waiting to be pushed over the edge. I think that's what's behind all this lack of enthusiasm in the hunting crowd today. These half day hunters are trying to tell us something. I think the normal reaction to a severe cut in gun season length would be "Well check it out. They're screwing us again". It doesn't matter if they are really using the days or not. The perception would be that they are once again being taken advantage of. Especially in light of the license fee increases and the new fee on permits. Pay more for less ...... a good recipe for fewer customers. It doesn't work well in retail outlets, and I wouldn't expect hunters to be any more accepting of such tactics. Look, nobody can say with any certainty just how hunters would react to such a change. We can guess and try to apply a certain level of logic, but it is foolish for anyone to pretend that they know exactly what would happen. I guess my feeling is why take a chance. The benefits are theoretical at best, but the steady decline of hunters is now a numerical certainty. I'm not for anything that even has the potential of accelerating the diminishing our ranks further. It just doesn't seem like something we should be playing around with. Doc

I have seen that same thing three times on state land. In two of the cases, they were complete with face paint. The only thing that runs through my mind when I see this is that here are some individuals intent on "suicide by hunter".

bart- I'm just guessing, but I suspect if you hunted in areas where a yearling buck is about the best that you can hope to see, coupled with an area that offers few or no antlerless permits, you might see it a bit differently. At any rate, whether that would really change your thinking or not, it's always a good thing to understand that not everyone hunts in areas that offer the choices that you or I obviously have.

Just a word about tax credits. There is nothing magical about tax credits that differentiate them from simply doling out cash. In NY's current financial condition and that of the countys and towns, I don't think anyone will be too happy about a proposal to curtail any source of revenue. Yes, they do offer tax abatement programs to attract and hold businesses (a real questionable tactic) but I'm afraid that landowners really do not hire new employees or offer anything that would allow the state to recoup their expenditure. As far as hacking on the gun season, it might be interesting to see just what that would cost the state in terms of license sales and declining hunter numbers. Gun hunters are the bread and butter of the DEC incomes. I sincerely doubt that it would be a smart financial move to be beating up the majority of hunters at a point where hunter numbers are declining. Such a move had better have some real credible benefits that are easily demonstrated and very convincing to the gun-hunters. I think it would be a very tough-sell. As far as DMAPs being available to farmers who totally lock up their land from hunters, I have always wondered why the DEC allows that. I have a feeling that the issue might be a bit more complicated than it first appears. I'm thinking that there may be some legal implications to the way that program is handled. I would like to have that explained to me someday.

That has been my position on AR right along. In the greater scheme of things, I believe that AR sits real low on my wish-list of priorities for the DEC. I think we need to be a bit more concerned about getting basic wildlife management correct before we ask the DEC to go charging off chasing every new fad management scheme. And now as you just pointed out, our priorities should include a new threat which impacts the very existance and function of the DEC. And we're sitting here worrying about AR. I believe that as long as we are sidelined with trivial issues like AR, we are not organized for the real issues of game management. I'm not too sure just where we expect the resources to come from for research and implementation of new management methods, but if they ever do come up with some scraps of resources, AR is probably not the thing I would like to see them squander it on.

I hunt some places that are so tight that I have to be constantly at the ready because when deer come in, they can be in and out of the shooting lanes before I ever even get a chance to pick up my bow. In some spots, brush is so tight that I have been forced to cut "vision lanes" just to get some warning. It gets tough just staring at those two sighting lanes for hours. So, the visibility thing is another good reason for treestands. Things always go a lot smoother when you have advance notice that a deer is coming and have a chance to prepare. Like I said earlier, I do believe I am working at a distinct dis-advantage for several reasons when hunting from the ground. However, I simply have no choice. That's not a real complaint since I do seriously believe that my hunting has gotten a whole lot more exciting once I got out of the trees. So each hunting system has its benefits and drawbacks. Vision is just another factor.

Right now, over 40 states have some form of B/O law. So far I have not heard of any sportsmen's clubs or national hunting organizations complaining about how their civil rights are being violated or how armed insurrection may be required to get rid of these oppressive laws in order to keep their tentacles of human rights violations from further creeping into the lives of hunters. How can that be with B/O laws being the scourge of the hunting community. It is good to have an active imagination, but it's also important to be able to maintain a grip on reality. No, the sky will not fall with a B/O law. If people want to stretch laws to harrass hunters, they can do that with or without a B/O law. We have to be watchful that they don't do that right now and that would be true even after a B/O law. But that doesn't mean that all safety laws have to be repealed and no future ones ever proposed.

Gotta love those neck shots. Good press for the bowhunters ..... eh?

I can't continue to respond to the same repetitive flawed logic. Sorry, but paranoia is just not my thing. I know..... it's not actually paranoia if everyone really is out to get you .....lol. Doc

Link to the D&C article on the latest trestand death: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20101123/NEWS01/101123001/Hunter-found-dead-after-fall-in-Orleans-County&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL The local area count of treestand accidents is up to 4 now. The one guy (Rogers) is still being reported as being in guarded condition. I don't really know exactly what that means, but it doesn't sound too good. I'm not sure what's going on in other parts of the state, but here in our little chunk of western NY, we aren't really doing all that great. Doc

Wow!!! That's some pretty prompt reporting on the DEC's part. I don't recall any harvest comments made this early in the season in past years. The reporting dates that they are talking about ended just yesterday. Doc

Deer make all kinds of vocalizations. Some of them are so rare that we don't see anyone talking about them very much. Just a week or two ago, Michael Waddell showed a clip of a buck making a weird noise that he claimed was something he had never heard before. it was something I had never heard from a deer either.

Lol .... I often have the same suspicion, but I do realize that typically hunters drag out their rifles (shotguns, pistols) and do a bit of last minute sighting in or checking out the accuracy of their weapons. You do have to wonder about some of those single shots in the middle of the woods. I generally give the benefit of a doubt since small game season is still open .........but you never know.

I'm just saying that you made a stupid assumption that those that you were referring to when you said "you guys", shoot the first deer that comes along. That comment was based on absolutely nothing. I haven't got a clue where you got that from and clearly you don't either. I don't understand why you think you have to make stuff up like that just to make your point and I figured it was time somebody called you on it. Such baseless assumptions or purposeful mis-statements simply reflect on your credibility.

And yet more treestand falls: In the Canandaigua Messenger 11/19/10 - A canadice man, Richard Vinson, 56, fell from his treestand while bowhunting and was airlifted to Strong Memorial Hospital where he was listed in guarded condition. He fell from a height of 12 to 15 feet. In the Canandaigua Messenger 11/22/10 - A Penfield man, Thomas J. Rogers, 63, was listed in guarded condition after falling from a treestand in Naples, Ontario County. The fall was about 12 feet. He was taken to Strong Memorial Hospital via Mercy Flight. These two coupled with the recent death of Eric Docteur from a treestand fall in Bristol is starting to form a pattern of some pretty ugly statistics here locally and are only incidents that are reported in one small area of the state. It makes me wonder what the total picture across the state really looks like. I think these treestand incidents are one of the more under-reported hunting mishaps with often disastrous consequences. I'm afraid that by next hunting season, all this talk about death and serious injuries from treestand falls will be lost to memories and another round of the same kinds of incidents will most likely end or impair hunting for a significant number of our hunting community. For those that don't own the proper treestand safety equipment, it sure would be great, if those who hunt in tree-stands were to go out and buy the necessary harnessing to help ensure safety now before the memories of these tragic events fade. Harness systems might make a good Christmas present request this year. Also, I would guess that this is not something that you want to buy from the lowest bidder .... lol. Looks like it is something that might be worth a bit of research and a few extra dollars if necessary to ensure maximum safety and ease of use. Doc

Geez .... I hope you're alright. I don't really want to be killing anybody..... But I do understand how a guy could get hurt scrambling away from his own quote like you just did. ;D

I assume you already have the equipment needed to do this and the transportation vehicles required to take equipment to customer sites. It looks like you did a dandy job on your own plot, so apparently you do have the skills. Is there a market for such a service? ....... I have to believe that there is. It all depends on whether you can keep the costs controlled to make your offer tempting to a landowner. I can only imagine the different scenarios that potential customers might throw at you. Remote locations, some land clearing, perhaps land that has never been tilled before, that might be full of rocks and downed trees, etc. I think it might be a pretty interesting, challenging and potentially financially rewarding side-line. Doc

I love both seasons. Yes bow season is my preferred way of hunting, but my old shotgun is yet another way to experience hunting and to celebrate the old traditions and maybe occasionally set things straight between me and a couple of deer that formerly enjoyed rubbing my nose in the shortcomings of my bow. ;D Doc