dbHunterNY

they're working right now on poaching legislation. DEC is going to hold a meeting this summer to discuss results of those surveys that have been talked about on here and some management plans. There will be some representation there I believe. The meeting was already supposed to happen but then for unknown reasons it got postponed. They're trying but we can't expect NYS DEC to invite or allow them to everything. Also I'd think there should be seminars, habitat days, and similar educational events going on in your area that are free with your membership. There are out this way. There is a lot of useful info in those magazines. Why PA and other states don't let similar groups in is beyond me. a survey gets sent out, you hear nothing about how it went, and then all the sudden there are changes that not many are happy with. can't please everyone, but the general concensus is the chance of shooting a buck the first two weeks of bow shouldn't have been eliminated completely.

so I just found out Tues night that a guy I know of shoots the FMJ Dangerous Game version and his finished arrow weight was something like 750 grains that he routinely uses for deer. He tagged out early season with it too on a mature doe and a 140" class buck, so it's working well.

yea it's already been posted (the reg changes anyway). A for effort though. On a separate note, I hate the way the article is written. It isn't the governor's budget, it's ours (NYS). It isn't his initiative either... he just okays it and takes credit. Anything advertised seems like it starts with "Governor Cuomo's.... initiative. ....". Not the state. We all know who he is and what his responsibility should be to steer the ship". It all sounds as if it wasn't a team effort and it's just him getting all this done. It's disgusting. Sorry had to vent.

I know there's differences you'd see with more involvement in the QDMA versus just being a member. I know branches donate a lot of money, educational material, and resources toward hunting related education, events, and scholarships for both communities and especially youth. QDMA very much relies on branch volunteer effort. Enough effort there'd be no way they'd continue to volunteer if it wasn't something they truly thought could help the future of hunting and was something the believed in more so than not. I mean it's not their job and they aren't getting paid. Organized and larger scaled efforts for QDM within a community takes both money and most definitely effort. Many QDM efforts here in this county and neighboring ones get some help or assistance from the QDMA in some way. It's really too bad some aspect(s) don't sit well with you. Not sure this thread is the topic or place but if you're up to it PM me. I'm curious to know what bothers you about it. Hopefully something changes and things work out better, so you haven't been to some extent vested for nothing.

I think any of them would bring up a red flag but can think of one exception for #1. I shoot 22LR pistol competition. I got half a case twice not long ago. there's 5,000 rounds to a case. only way I could get enough standard velocity 22LR and of the same # lot.

yea mine have mounting eyelets already on them.

yesterday evening the count was at 6. nobody PM'd me though so they're fertilizer. didn't find any holes in a newer hay field with a slope so it was a good day. hopefully more get mowed without issues or breaking equipment.

being involved in 4H at a young age, having dairy farms in the family, and living on a beef cattle farm I've seen a lot. even went out to Kansas for an exchange trip and while out there went to Cargill Foods to see what operations for processing beef are like on a huge larger than imagined scale. within the processing facilities everything is super clean. before then the livestock can get pretty dirty. basically as they're conditioned to optimum weight and fat content, or a basic stock yard for a small facility, the cattle are in smaller pens that can get pretty messy from them being confined to an extent. like many other things I think conditions have gotten much better over the years. the tour wasn't for the faint of heart though other wise I'd be posting video tour links.

very common and definitely acceptable in my book. yea I couldn't find any history or "about us" on the site or facebook page so I was curious.

i don't like the HIT inserts in the FMJ arrows. They have the Nemesis though with HP inserts that's still a pretty small diameter and comparable weight.

me averaging all the studies to together I don't believe is cherry picking. within each study they averaged their sample. i don't believe it's wrong for me to take the average for all of them, weighted based on quantity of deer in each study, and then choose a study that closely correlates with the average. that'd be well over your 100 doe requirement. I get your drift that more fetus samples and data would seem more conclusive. In the future some research might be done again for it. I'm sure when that happens there will be more gotten from the death of doe than only the measurements of their fetus. When that happens it can be added to the research already done. right now it's what we've got though. Those minds together may have probably forgotten more about deer than either of us know. To call what they did rusty and crumbling or just write it off with either mindset of whether it's conclusive yet or not is just not something I cannot agree with. i think a fetus within a given age is uniform across the board. region and genetics related to size take place in later stages of development is my understanding. i can agree with you that using it to determine a specific date might allow for some error. i don't understand the need for that kind of accuracy to the day anyway. i believe it'll get you close enough to consider the date as approximate and more importantly allow you to determine related stuff like if the doe was bred in its first cycle and sooner than later. thanks for the discussion.

that's what the research he refers to gets at. some people think deer get nocturnal and literally stay put/bedded until the sun goes down. that's just not the case. they'll restrict their movements to areas nearby of little to no pressure. they're still on their feet though just not where they've known you to be. I think it's one of those things that's misunderstood. you seem to get it.

that's odd when Dick's sells all kinds of minerals and bait, anything from Deer Cane to molded chunk of corn you screw into the ground. I've mostly just stuck to 2 blade heads for big game. Mostly the Titaniums because I could get them for the same cost as the regular ones. I've messed with them and they don't seem to hang up. once two blades made contact and there was a delay in them folding forward to an unbarbed position but they still did. I can't see an ECO giving you a hard time but it's easy to just use a 2 blade model or other brand all together. Problem solved.

by now the younger ones might be alright without her. usually see them start to wonder now. I haven't been out since the spring. went out a couple times and got 4. now that the hay fields are being cut the numbers will climb in a hurry if I can get out. maybe tomorrow. couple summers ago was my last decent count at 82 for that year. opportunity was definitely there that summer as they were bad.

where are they built?

like I said if you average the age estimates from those studies you get about 68 days and two of the studies got 67 and 69 days for age of the fetus. so there you have your range for those few days you've determined those bucks are going bananas. when I said variable I didn't mean varying results like the day discrepancy. I meant variables as in differences in deer the fetal samples came from that would lead them to be different lengths for a given age, as in deer from the same area or north of the equator (Bergmann's Rule). not some from Michigan, some from NY, etc. I think peak breeding period for does in your area will last longer than a few days but not the point. nobody's saying it's an absolute exact science but it's way more accurate then you're claiming which is saying it's basically worthless. for babies it's the same idea of determining the gestation of a fetus or back dating conception and due date. then you can't compare a fully developed baby to a fetus in this regard. two completely different stages in the development process where other factors come into play. there's specific requirements and perimeters for using the fetus scale to yield conclusive results. so many things on here you write off as "Bad Science" yet it doesn't seem like fully under them. Maybe you do and your reason's aren't compelling enough to me. I don't know.

I like this response.... +1

you know if you average all the studies you referenced you get a date of 67 days for a 100 mm fetus? aside from one study being the extreme low and another being the extreme high, the others independently come in anywhere between 67-69 days. considering there's limited studies and data on this with each not being based in the exact same region, along with other variables, I think the results are pretty good. No study ever dwells on extremes that far from the rest of the data when coming to a conclusive result anyway. I know where I can get a fetus scale based on Hamilton's study which fell right there in the middle. I wouldn't hesitate to use a fetus scale for deer, if I decided to pursue that information. the method of determining duration of gestation by measuring a fetus from crown to tail bone base is commonly used for us humans. they literally take a snap shot and measure it on the screen through software and clicking on the points during an ultrasound. they've been doing it for years now and if the method sucked I doubt they'd continue to use it. it's more beneficial for me to focus early harvest of doe before a buck expends energy chasing them around and breeding them. the fetus wouldn't be at least 6 weeks old to be conclusive, and most likely the doe wouldn't even be bred by then to make a fetus. your use of the term rut is a little confusing. written as if it were a specific date, when in reality it's multiple stages that consist of more than a week each, that together form "the rut". the first 2/3 of your article is hell bent on figuring out this one date and I'm not sure why given what I've previously typed. heck the buck is with a doe at that right time for approximately 72 hours; 24 hours before, when ready, and after.

i've had various game for table fair from across North America; moose, bear, elk, deer, beaver, rabbit, grouse, turkey, duck, etc. not sure why but I haven't and don't think I could bring myself to eat woodchuck. makes sense they wouldn't be bad, because they're eating alfalfa all day where I am. puke or boogers as wooly's alternative suggestion wouldn't trump a woodchuck roast! lol it'll still never happen though. if one gets hit too far back by my Black Hills loaded 223 60gr Vmax round on rare occasion, it'll get a follow up to the head. I agree, no need to let it suffer. my parents have a sizable farm that's bread and butter is hay and hay only. hay is finally being cut now. if someone is hungry this summer, I'd have some available. if given notice, i'll fill any and every freezer you've got by the time any left go into hibernation! lol

22LR ammo is being produced like mad from all manufacturers. problem is there's a shortage so people feel the need to buy more. to buy a lot isn't all that hard because a lot is cheap enough for the average joe ...if there's no store limit. the problem is some people are a jerk and feel they need to keep buying more and more of anything 22 cal so it can sit in the closet at home and many times sell it illegally for ridiculous costs. while it's their right to buy what they can, they know the situation and aren't being considerate of others needs who actually want to shoot or need just a little. I shoot 22LR competitively and I'm telling you it's 5 times harder to find that ammo versus bulk or cheap high velocity 22LR you can get in a box store. the most common being CCI standard velocity (it's cheaper and accurate). I can't buy misc packs 50 rounds at a time. each match bullseye round is 30 rounds if you don't check your zero or practice before. i'll shoot 2-3 a week during the winter. I can't keep sighting in my gun every time and not all standard or sub-sonic velocity ammo cycles dependably in a pistol. so I need lots of ammo of the same brand/type/lot. ...and it's expensive at about $ 0.12 per round. I feel your pain. just have to keep looking. get what you NEED and step aside for others to get some.

I've heard of this before. also heard no doe and no spikes. if the example you said happened statewide then he's in my opinion what would happen. say you've got 10 deer in your little honey hole area. in three years that population would be 7-8 times it's original size. that's based on some assumptions as follows. you start out with a 1:4 buck to doe ratio. yearling or fawn doe won't have any fawns that make it. half the fawns are bucks and half doe. a more than handful of bucks grow into an 8 pt and some hunter is lucky enough to take them. most of the areas are at capacity or over with deer versus the habitat (think winter not summer). now you're introducing 70+ more deer with the same amount of food. deer are resourceful though and eat whatever is around to survive whether they like it or not. now let's assume that the deer find this 12-16+ TON of forage in that third year. that means the nearby suburban $$ landscaping gets chomped, but more importantly browse species in areas of cover the deer call home get wiped clean. now there's little numbers of plants at deer level to create more plants so each year there's less and less but the demand remains the same. now assuming the deer find all this food they need somewhere. even if after year 3 you have a massive deer take the looks like genocide to the non-hunting public, unless they smashed a couple with their car and now hold a grudge, you're still left with habitat that can support far less than the original population. now your chances of getting trophy 10 point racks is less probable at an earlier age because the food isn't there. not to mention anything showing any potential will get popped due to many hunters longing to fill a buck tag for the first time in 3 years. it'd take over a decade to restore the damage done in just those three years. my intentions aren't to shoot down the idea but to convey why I don't think it's a good idea, despite a common one that pops up.

I used to hunt Albany Pine Bush a lot. I lived and worked right near there. It's a constant struggle to keep the deer numbers down. within several hundred yards the deer have a sanctuary. whether it's closed areas due to research or the acre of woods surrounded by houses on all sides, they've got a safe zone to run to. deer even during the rut seem to herd up there. you have very little action or the woods comes alive and deer are every where ....until a hiker or something strolls through in the distance. i'll see 14+ deer at a time in a section of the preserve.

yea I read it. you left out parts that scream BS though... "While the reporting rate is lower than we would prefer, the combination of harvest reports and more than 15,000 deer checked by DEC staff in the field, yielded a 2006 harvest estimate that was statistically accurate to within ±1.9%. Ten years ago, when reporting rates averaged 60-65%, harvest estimates were accurate to within 1-2%. Our accuracy has not changed, because the methodology and statistics involved are sound. ..." if those percentages were truly what they are then, DEC would care less if reporting rate was higher because it wouldn't make any difference. they gave percentages as a state average not an average percentage across the state for each WMU. therefore, some WMUs are reporting more and some less (than 45%). i hope it was just written incorrectly and really it was the later. as well as it the collected data should've been from areas throughout each WMU. that would account for a big factor in error (more than 2%). I agree with them that the math and "system" is probably sound given data versus data out. however, it's extrapolated solutions based on original data. you don't need all reporting for a good enough estimate, sure, but once the sample size gets small enough any error is compounded. "Our concern with current reporting rates is not the resulting quality of our harvest estimates. Rather, we are concerned that low reporting rates may reflect a declining awareness among hunters about the important role they have in the game management process." the above is BS too and not an answer to my call out above. notice they said current reporting rates aren't a concern. yet they then say involvement like reporting plays an important role in the game management process. it's because they're getting by now but if it gets any worse they'll really be in the dark. they need to sound confident. however, it's beyond contestation that crappy or insufficient data in means crappy or insufficient data out. it doesn't matter how solid or sound their means to get the data is. i stand by what i said with them putting up a front. maybe there's some arrogance there. they've used the same system for decades now. so I'm sure they know its limitations.

nobody not into hunting cares about the "case" or even that it's a "tradition". however, when you explain the quality and description of life a deer has versus say the beef that are raised from the beginning for them to pick up in the grocery store it opens eyes. also some some in rural areas use venison to feed families and others food closets feeding much less fortunate is a selling point. If you describe natural causes of death versus a humane harvest from a hunter its very eye opening. winter survival, predation by coyotes or bears, and things like CWD or auto collsion death come across much worse. kids hit home. when you explain that when you know where venison came from versus even organic store bought meat and health benefits you demand for your kids they usually understand. also they listen when you explain how raising your young adult around hunting has made them a responsible and when needed mature individual. how can they agrue when you explain that time and time again they've proven that by safely handling potentially deadly weapons under close supervision. from there you can go into the other stuff about "fair chase", God given rights (verses from Kings or Acts), how you actually respect that animal who's life you're ending, or even scientific life cycle/food chain stuff.

I sat through the whole thing again when my wife got her hunter safety certification. she needs to do bow still as she only wants to hunt with a bow. they're take home work books then just show up for test/field day now for all of them around her.