wolc123

Yes, technically, according to NY state, it is legally a ML.

Funny that you mentioned that. I did not have the pellet gun tonight (blind was too small for 2 guns) but I did see the only black squirrel that I have ever seen in WMU 9F, and a couple of greys. It was another deerless sit however, as has been the case every time since the first half hour of opening day. The good news is that I still have an either/or and an antlerless tag for the southern tier and if the weather is decent, I will try and get down to my buddies camp for the following long weekend with my ML. I was able to free up the firing pin on that with some CLP. so I should be good to go. They have lots of standing corn down there that is infested with does. Hopefully I will end up with a button buck or two.

How many rolls of tape have you gone thru so far ?

Time for me to go get the scout.

I hunted about 24 hours in the northern zone, with no shots taken, seeing 4 or 5 unidentified deer. I also spent about 24 hours in the southern zone, killing (2) deer and seeing about a dozen (all but three were antlered). I had our year's worth of venison in the first hour on opening day of crossbow season and the first half hour of opening day of gun season. I still have a buck tag, and (4) doe tags, which I will spend about 12 more hours working on thru late ML season, but I am not all that into it, since our meat supply is already secured. Depending on the weather conditions, I should end up with about 60 hours total. I would like to have had more time to hunt, but I am inundated with other work to do around home in my "free" time.

I do not expect to get a shot at him from the "scout blind", which is located in a hedge-row between two open fields. Deer seldom venture out on those open fields after gun season starts. I am pretty sure that it was him that I heard crashing thru the thicket behind that blind, just after I arrowed the older 8-point. That threw me off on the recovery, and caused the guts to stay in the older deer for an extra half hour or so. Getting the guts out ASAP is best for taste of the meat (you will never catch me "backing out until morning" ). My plan for this afternoon, is to be up in another blind in the mature hardwoods several hundred yards further back. That has been my best late-season spot thru the years. There is not much room left in our freezer, so he will have to share a shelf with a turkey and some other odds and ends. We have about a year's worth of venison in there now, and always try to eat it in the order that it was obtained. That means that the scout gets eaten last, and will likely go more than a year before consumption (other than the tenderloins, which go right away, and the heart, which my wife will pickle with the rest for Valentine's day). The best thing about the vacuum sealer is that you can stock up for the lean years on the plentiful ones, with no loss in flavor.

Sounds good. It is definitely my favorite blind. I did not expect much from it this year, since there was no standing corn near it (too wet to plant this spring). That is why the "scout" caught me by surprise on November 2 this year. I am going to hunt back there tomorrow afternoon. I don't think anyone got the scout yet this year (my neighbor took the 2016 3-point scout on Thanksgiving morning). This year's scout is a much larger-bodied 3-point, so he will not get a pass from me, if I see him tomorrow. My trigger finger is especially ithchy after another deerless day over at my folks place today. Even the squirrels stayed well out of range of the pellet gun that I brought along. Maybe so. I nearly did that this year because the body was big on the scout, even though he only had 3 points total. Fortunately, I stuck to my plan of "three or more on a side" for the first half of the season(s). It paid off, just like it did in 2016. This year's scout showed up about a half hour after the start of southern-zone crossbow season. Now that we are in the tail end of gun-season, he is back on the hit-list. It would be cool to get the pair back together again in our freezer.

You got me mixed up with another guy TG. I can not remember his name right now, but I think he was from Wyoming county. The only thing I said about older deer is that they need to be aged longer prior to processing and freezing, for the rigor mortis to work out. A nice feature of the button bucks is that they can be cut up the day after they are killed. I have ate very few older than 3.5, but I have never noticed any difference in taste or texture of 1.5 thru 3.5 year bucks, provided they were properly aged prior to processing. I know you have taken many older bucks and noted that none had scouts. Maybe it is just something that happens at my place. It happened twice in the last three years anyhow, and from the same blind.

Spots would be great. Almost time to "light them up". Even tree-rats are on the table today. My trigger finger is itching.

I don't think 12 - 20 is so many when it comes to button bucks. Hopefully another one will hit the freezer this season. I am making some good headway on the "mature" bucks also, with one on each of the last three seasons. Passing of the scouts has played a key role in that. I will start with you. Have any of them that you have taken (lets include 2.5's in there also since I know you have taken a few of those the last few years), showed up less than 5 minutes after a 1.5 came from the same spot ? If others want to "chime in" on the poll, have at it. I am going to go out shortly and try for my second antlered buck this year, or a doe / button buck or three, or at the very least, a tree rat or two. My chances of second 3.5 plus are slim for the remainder of this year, because I have just decided to go full "brown-down" from here on out. It would be selfish of me to hold out for a big one, considering all of the carnage that I have heard of lately with automobile hits. That includes (4) from the dozen or so folks who I was playing cards with last night. Us hunters are the primary means of limiting such destruction. The "passing of young bucks" and eating tags does nothing to help that situation. It seems to be antlered bucks that are involved in the majority of those hits. In future seasons, I will continue to pass the young ones in the early season, until my meat supply is secure, but holding out for a trophy now ain't going to happen.

What about morning hunts ? The 1.5 / 2.5 buck combo in 2016 was in the afternoon, but the 1.5 / 3.5 (mature by your definition) combo this year was in the morning (the little guy came out about a half hour after legal sunrise). Do you think this 3.5 would have waited until dark to walk past that blind on November 2 if he did not have a "scout" to indicate that the coast was clear ?

Sometimes I envy the retired guys and the ones with lots of extra vacation time who can hunt thru the week all the time. I have to do most of my deer hunting on the weekends. Last holiday weekend I was away, so my local spots have had a real good rest from hunting pressure. I am looking forward to some action, which has been lacking for me since the first hour of opening day. My plans for Saturday, are to hunt my favorite hang-on stand in the woods over at my folks place in the morning, eat lunch with them, then head back to my big comfortable two-story blind at the edge of the woods until dark. I am going to "force" some action, by bringing along my pellet gun for the afternoon hunt. The area around that blind has been infested with gray squirrels this year. They have been running right up around the rails of my blind, taunting me as I sit there with my slug gun, waiting in hopes that deer will show up. They will be in for a surprise tomorrow. There is not room for much more venison in our freezer right now, but plenty for a few squirrels. I will be very happy with a single grey squirrel thru the weekend. Anything more is just a bonus. I will also have my slug gun with me the blind, just in case a deer shows up (still have (3) dmp's and my buck tag). The pellet gun should be silent enough to not scare away any deer.

It sounds like you agree that the mature bucks might be using the younger ones as "tools", or "scouts". I am just thankful that I stuck with my (at least three points on a side rule), during the first half of the season(s), to get a little more meat out of my buck tags. Does are nearly impossible to get in my spots, so I need to make those two buck tags count for as much meat as possible.

For a two week season, I am just fine with my $ 250 Barnett Recruit (5 for 5 on deer - all bucks, but 0 for 1 on grouse). I don't expect that I will ever upgrade, because I don't expect NY state will ever change the rules and allow full inclusion. No matter though, because we have the best two weeks of archery season and my cheapo gets the job done just fine every time. My crossbow deer take in six of those two-week seasons has almost caught up with my vertical bow take in thirty month(s) long archery seasons with my vertical bow. I have just about the cheapest crossbow of anyone I know (except MOOG). It almost seems to me that the more folks spend on their crossbows, the less success they have had with them. If a miracle does occur, and NY passes full inclusion, I will probably upgrade just a tad to one of them Centerpoint models. That would be more to give me a "spare" than an upgrade.

Like I said earlier, they don't "send them out". In fact, I don't believe there is any communication between the young and old bucks. The older bucks are simply using the younger ones as tools, to insure that the "coast is clear" before they enter a new area where they may encounter trouble. Certainly, the big two-story blind at my place is such a threat. The older buck this year gave me a stare down that was longer than any other has in my 38 hunting seasons, even after his "little-buddy" passed by unharmed. It seemed like a half hour, but was probably closer to 15 minutes. It was very obvious that he was suspicious of danger in the area. I doubt he would have ventured past that blind in the daylight, had the little guy not made it safely past first (my answer to your question is "after dark"). This was also not the first time this happened to me in that very blind, although the previous "older buck" was just 2.5. I have to admit that I was fully expecting and ready for the 3.5 when he came out this year. I would not have been, had the same thing not occurred, at the same spot, 3 years prior. Killing that older buck was litterally "childs play" this year, because I was ready and expecting it. I have not had an easier shot with my crossbow in the 6 seasons that I have had it. I would have had a much tougher time killing the scout, who appeared totally unexpected, and caught me unready. The bottom line here is, just like crow hunting: "don't shoot the scout".

I don't think he "sends him out first", but I do think that he deliberately follows him around to keep himself safe. As I said above, I don't think the young ones have a clue what is going on, but the older ones certainly do. I don't think we have any disagreement here. Do you think mature bucks might purposely stay close to but behind a younger buck ? Why would that be ?

Per FSW, the 2.5 that I killed in 2016 was not "mature", but this year's 3.5 might just make the cut. He was pre-rut, as his neck was not swelled up yet and there was still lots of fat on him. Certainly, the 3 pointer that preceded him, by less 5 minutes, might fit the definition of a "scout". Had I killed him, the big 8 might still be breathing. I can't help but wonder how many folks are missing chances at larger bucks, by shooting the first smaller one that walks into range, no matter what part of the season it might be. My examples occurred pre or early rut. Having seen this happen twice with my own eyes, you will have a hard time convincing me that older bucks do not use younger scouts. They certainly do at my place. Have you ever passed on a smaller buck and then had a significantly larger (and at least a year older) buck, appear from the same spot less than 5 minutes later ? If so, do you think there was any type of "relationship" between the pair ? In both of my cases, I doubt that the smaller/younger bucks were aware of how they were being "used" by the larger/older bucks. I have little doubt that the older bucks knew exactly what they were doing however.

Lots of folks seem to think that, but none of them must have actually tried it. I have power washed about about (7) and have yet to break a nasal bone. In fact, the nasal bones on all of them held up better than the one a buddy did for me using the conventional boil and pick method. My guess is that the hot or boiling water weakens the bones while the cold stuff from a pressure washer does not. One thing I have not heard of is someone who used a pressure washer and then went back to other methods. That ought to tell you something.

I would sort of like that "Riflemen" book by Oliver North.

Deer really only like soybeans when they are young and green. I never understood why anyone would want to plant them in the spring for deer hunting. If you want to plant just one time with minimal equipment, I would go with a mix of winter wheat, white clover, and soybeans, broadcast around September 1. Deer like wheat better than rye. That will give you good attraction the first fall. If the first killing frost is late, the soybeans will give you top-notch early October attraction. The white clover will give you a few more years of decent attraction, and can be maintained with just a few mowings per season. Chop off the remaining wheat with a mower before it goes to seed the following late spring. That will give you 3-4 years from just one day's planting on that area. With lots of equipment, if I only plant one thing, it is usually corn.

Go back about 45 minutes before daylight (longer if it is far from where you park). Check what direction the wind is blowing. Walk to a position that is about 50 yards downwind of where you think they were bedded and sit tight. Wait for daylight and hope to see them again. You can't shoot before legal daylight (I dont load my gun until then). The key is for you to see them before they smell, hear, or see you (wind will help with the smell and hear parts, and some cover and keeping still will help with the "see" part).

Congrats on that kill. I am not certain how many button bucks that I have killed in my 38 seasons, but the number might be between 12 and 20. Those included many "firsts" including my first deer with a gun, first with a bow, first during the late muzzleloader season, first from the ground with a crossbow, and first "double". When filling dmp tags, I always target the largest deer in the group first and that has often turned out to be a button buck, especially when it is just a single deer or a pair. I am the only hunter in our family and we get most of our protein from venison. I am not blessed with enough opportunities at antlerless deer to be real fussy about which ones I do and do not shoot at. Oddly enough, I have never killed a doe fawn. One thing is for sure, there are no finer eating bucks on the table. It is always cause for great celebration, in our family, when I bring home a "fatted calf" like that. The livers are especially good. Hopefully you did not leave that in the gut pile. One of the best things about button bucks, is that the meat can be processed and froze right away, without aging a while (at 32-42 deg F) for the rigor mortis to work out, as must be done with older deer unless you don't mind all the extra chewing required. I still have (4) antlerless tags left and I am really hoping to be able to use one of them on a button buck. I guess my regular season buck tag also turns into an either/or tag for the late ML season, so I could legally take (5) of them this year, if I still have it by then. I will be super thankful for just one however, but I really don't expect it. button bucks have been an "every other year" thing since my first year hunting. The odd number years are the off ones for me and button bucks. If anyone is heartbroken over killing one, shoot me a pm and I will gladly take it off your hands for you.

The 12 ga, 2-3/4" SST's have always grouped good from my Marlin 512 (except for last season when my old Bushnell Banner 4X scope crapped out on me). Most of the deer that I have taken with them have been struck on the shoulder blade and have dropped dead in their tracks. With the messed up scope, (2) SST's struck far left last season. The first shot (from a hundred yard range) passed thru just below the spine and above the guts. The 3.5 year old, 182 lb field-dressed buck kept walking. He stopped after a few steps and the second slug struck about 2" higher, breaking his spine and knocking him down on his back. I finished him off with a third off-brand slug fired to the neck from point-blank range. I was expecting to loose most of the backstraps from that deer, but was surprised to find that the meat damage was very minimal, and only a bloodied up chop or two had to be trimmed away. By contrast, I lost about 1/3 of the backstraps from a 3.5 year old doe this year. She was struck in the same place on the spine with a single 16-gauge Remington slugger, foster-type slug. I hope to try those 12 gauge SST's again this weekend. I treated the bolt and firing pin on my Marlin with a good dose of CLP and I hope that will prevent freeze up on Saturday. It froze up on me last year, after I dropped it in the swamp while dragging out the heavy buck. That cost me a "chip-shot" at a doe that ran thru right under my stand, pursued by a couple of love-starved young bucks. This Sunday is supposed to be warmer, so I should not have any freeze-up issues then, even if the CLP don't do the trick. I still have a buck tag and (3) DMP's and I have really been wanting to try out the new Redfield Revolution 2-7X scope that I put on that gun this spring.

48", and the largest one that I have landed. I rarely target them, but get a few by "accident" now and then while bass fishing. They only had to be 44" to keep on the upper Niagara back then (now they need to be 54"). I have a couple other "by-accident" fish mounted, including a walleye and a northern pike, but I have never had a bass mounted. I got the idea for the musky in the billiard room from George Bolt, at his place on Heart Island up on the St Lawrence.

The 3.5 year old buck on the left was boiled. Big mess to clean up, smelly, and took quite a while. The 2.5 year old one on the right was skinned raw and power-washed. It took less than an hour, start to finish, no smell, and the birds cleaned up all the mess. That is the only way that I do them now.