Too big?

[Doc]

When it comes to food plots, how big is too big? I mean, food plots are not cheap, and I have seen some that look more like a commercial farm field with what looks to me to be huge acreage for the purpose. I'm thinking that once you put in more acreage than the herd size needs, any excess is a pure waste of money. So, how do you judge when you are going overboard and simply wasting money? Is there some kind of rule of thumb or something?

Any thoughts?

[Gthphtm]

It seems every year I do a little more clearing do to trees coming down or too much young growth.I have planted a number of small pieces anywhere from 10' X 20' to 50' X 100' with different types of seeds.There is not a large herd in my area and I do find the deer and few turkeys move from plot to plot during there travel threw my property.It seems that they do like the mixture of different plants.

On the farms fields around me I do see large flocks of turkeys after spreading of manure or cutting of the crops but not a large heard of deer only a few at a time.So you might be right on the amount of acreage for the herd size.

[SplitG2]

Doc, I have to make that decision every year? Last year I planted 10 acres of soybeans and with this past mild winter, there was alot of beans left come spring. I'm not a farmer but habitat management on my property is practiced. I don't plant kill plots per say, they are all nutritional plots. Do I go over board? maybe? but when it's a bad winter, the animals love my 10 acres of corn, 10 acres of soybeans, 2 acres of brassica, 2 acres of clover, and 2 acres of wr/oats. At this stage of my life, habitat management is another enjoyment besides hunting.

[SplitG2]

also it depends on how many acres you have? what your are plantng? Deer density ect...Most people who plant food plots are planting kill plots less than an acre. An acre of one thing doesnt equal another acre of something else. For example, an acre of winter wheat has less tonage of food than an acre of clover and an acre of brassica has more tonage than clover. Utilization cages put on foot plots will help the plotter know if he/she needs to expand the plot.

[growalot]

We have a very high density of deer...and I personally feel more than an acre in size is a waste...not saying all told.... that I don't have much more than that...but the rest is broken up with in the woods and through out the property...but as mentioned the deer are on the smaller plots and browsing on the natural forage between those plots much more during the day than in the open corn and alfalfa fields that surround us....those large fields are hit at night...especially once the area traffic increases in the fall...with guys looking for the "big boys" to hunt...but even the bigger planting sized field I divide into different food....mix of annuals and perennials .....kinda like...I prefer spring mix over iceberg salads...

[Doc]

One of the things I have noticed is that even on some rather prime feeding areas, deer seem to be "in-motion" feeders. What I mean by that is that they seem to be always on their way to somewhere and even in the dead of winter, don't stay in a field very long. It's kind of like they do an awful lot of walking while feeding and before you know it ..... poof! ..... they are gone and on their way to somewhere else. Some of that may have to do with their multiple stomach digestive system, I don't know. So anyway, that is what kind of brought that thought of "over-kill" to mind (that and some pictures of huge food plots that I have seen on the net .... lol). The actual area that a deer will actually use would seem to be quite small, to the point where 5 or 10 acres might have an awful lot of it that a deer may never actually use. I would think that many smaller plots might be more efficiently used by deer with their wandering habits. But then I am only guessing.

[Fantail]

All I can add to this is - about an acre - for one guy with a tiller & hand tools - is, alot of frackin work.

[erussell]

QDMA has some good articles on this on their web page. Alot of people over do it. First thing you need to do is find out how many deer are actually in your area. I dont have the equation but you have to estimate how many deer you have and how many lbs of food they will consume a day for it to be successfull and not over done.If you have 30 deer per acre your going to need to do some serious killin or plant some serious plots to feed all those deer. But if the herd is 3 deer per acre a 20 acre bean field will be a waste of money. Same could be said for under doin it to, If you have 15 deer per acre and you plant an acre bean field your probably wasting your time to because they will mow it down before it gets established unless you can keep them out of it. It would be better to plant something that will survive heavy browsing like chikory or oats or a good clover plot.

Edited June 11, 2012 by erussell

[dave6x6]

On the property i hunt, we only do large feeding plots as opposed to hunting plots. Our goal is to keep the deer fed and healthy yr round so they don't feel they need to travel in search of their next meal. Currently we have 13acres divoted to perrenials with the majority of that being Whitetail Clover. Chicory and alfafla and some extreme make up about 2 acres. We also have about 9 acres devoted to annuals, corn, soybeans and wintergeens. We don't always plant the whole 9 acres and sometimes rotate with some sections going unplanted for a yr. As far as overkill goes, yes i suppose you could look at it as a waste of time and money but when the farmer finishes combining the corn in Nov. food in ag country becomes very scarce for the whitetail. 4acres of brassica will just barely make it through til the spring. And the deer will dig for the clover all winter as well.

[dave6x6]

I once read a quote by Bill Winke talking about how to make sure your deer property is living up to it's potential. And it basically sums up what we like to do for hunters that are interested in making improvements on their hunting properties. Now mind you this pertains to your serious hunters that dont use their property for too many other outdoor activities. He basically said that if each section of your land is not offering either security/ bedding, or food, or water, then that section is under- performing and could be improved. With that in mind, although it may seem like a waste of money and time, some parts of a hunting property can only be improved by moving it into the food category. Leaving it in a state that provides nothing to benifit the deer is wasting the potential of that section of land. Access or logging roads are a good example that we can all relate to. Unplanted it provides very little to the deer. Planted it provides everything it once did plus food in a covered environment. So we always try to look at each small section and then move it into the category that makes the most sense and impliment the changes to get it there. If i created 15 bedding areas but only had 10 deer, would that be wasted time and effort or would i be improving the hunting potential of the property?

[Doc]

If i created 15 bedding areas but only had 10 deer, would that be wasted time and effort or would i be improving the hunting potential of the property?

Excess bedding areas are a different story because of the wandering nature of deer, but excess food is simply a waste, and hence my original question. Providing more food than resident deer can consume is something that makes no sense to me. First of all no property exists that does not already have some natural food sources there. So erring on the side of providing slightly too little probably is solved by the natural browse that currently exists. Too much is simply too much. Cover areas (bedding areas) are useful for providing browse (deer being naturally browsers rather than grazers), and also provide food and shelter for other species. I assume no one is interested in creating a "single-species property". So, I see a problem with opening up too large of an area to create an excess of deer food.

So, I guess those are some of the thoughts that I had in mind when I raised the question about creating food plots that are way too large to ever be properly used by the deer. It seems there could be a danger of simply wasting time and money, and also creating nearly a "single species" unbalanced eco-system that is great for deer and little else. ...... Not so?

[landtracdeerhunter]

In feeding deer, any excess would mean a person has accomplished their goal in what they set out to do. If certain plants-grains have been browsed to the max, the goal in successful feeding has not been accomplished. It's a trial and error effort, having to feel out a specialized area due to deer denisity changes per any given year. Experiencing waste is always going to be common, if your goal has been reached. Some years, I feel success, others, not. At least I feel as though my part of giving back to what has been taken, is heading in the right direction.

Edited June 12, 2012 by landtracdeerhunter

[G-Man]

too large has more to do with shape than size, a large square shaped 10 acre field will see less deer at its center than an long skinny 10 acres field. Probably has to do with escape cover being close by especially for daylight use. It has more to do with deer population, i have trouble keeping corn so there is enough to make it to spring green up. I have deer coming from up to 3 miles to get to the standing corn as there is no other food available in a normal winter. The benifit of this is in an early low food fall due to mast crops the deer come early to a place where they know has food. I perfer to have corn left in spring! i chop the field and the turkeys find it and the geese, ducks hit it hard on their flight north. The biggest thing is realize if you are planting for nutrition or as a kill plot to hunt over. There are a lot more kill plotters than nutrition plotters for sure,

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have utilized the monitor cages that really show us how hard they are using the food sources. We try to utilized shaped plots that allow more "corners" the deer seem to favor these and more likely to head there during daylight. Aaany that I have been involved in are a crap shoot. Idealy we like to have left overs in the spring. but if the mast crops really fail I would anticipate seeing them not make it. If you are in apple country it might very well be one of those years. I am hearing reports of areas expecting 75% crop loss for apples.

[dave6x6]

Doc, maybe i didn't explain it very well. I have a property that i help to manage. Right in the middle of the 200 acres is a 13acre field that had been farmed for years. With this set-up, the hunter (and the wildlife) only really achieved a benifit from this area for about 2 months out of the year. So years ago we implimented a food plot lay-out with a combination of perrenial and annual plantings that now provide the deer (turkey, pheasant, bunnies, fox, yotes, bears) with the nutrition they need year round. It is now the focal point of the entire property. How much is that worth? Just ask that land owner. If you can think of a better way or more logical way to improve a 13 acre farm field, i'm open to suggestions. The amount of food or the size of your plots depends entirely on what the land owner is trying to achieve and the strengths and weaknesses of the property. The notion that a BIG food plot is somehow detrimental is pretty far fetched. Unless your clear cutting a White Oak ridge top to put in a clover field.. Most plotters are removing unproductive spots and making them productive.

Edited June 12, 2012 by dave6x6

[Doc]

Doc, maybe i didn't explain it very well. I have a property that i help to manage. Right in the middle of the 200 acres is a 13acre field that had been farmed for years. With this set-up, the hunter (and the wildlife) only really achieved a benifit from this area for about 2 months out of the year. So years ago we implimented a food plot lay-out with a combination of perrenial and annual plantings that now provide the deer (turkey, pheasant, bunnies, fox, yotes, bears) with the nutrition they need year round. It is now the focal point of the entire property. How much is that worth? Just ask that land owner. If you can think of a better way or more logical way to improve a 13 acre farm field, i'm open to suggestions. The amount of food or the size of your plots depends entirely on what the land owner is trying to achieve and the strengths and weaknesses of the property. The notion that a BIG food plot is somehow detrimental is pretty far fetched. Unless your clear cutting a White Oak ridge top to put in a clover field.. Most plotters are removing unproductive spots and making them productive.

Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about anyone's specific management of specific plots on specific parcels. My question was more of a generic kind of inquiry. I am not criticizing anyone's management, and none of my comments are aimed at anyone or any specific person or situation. I have seen pictures of plots that look more like an agricultural enterprise. They appear to be huge, and so it makes me curious as to whether there are practical limits. I have seen the prices on some of these bags of special deer formula seeds. I know that gas and diesel fuel prices have gone to ridiculous levels. I know that most people put some value on their time and all these things taken together can represent a huge cash outlay that I would think people would try to streamline to as efficient an operation as possible. Like I say, I have seen pictures of what I suspect is gross over-kill and so with all those things in mind, I was curious as to whether anyone even thinks in terms of over-doing plotting from an efficiency standpoint and from a standpoint of trying to balance created food sources to the size of the herd and the actual usage of what is being put in. It's a subject that I have never heard anyone talk about.

I really was not trying to get into whether huge food plots can be "detrimental", other than the thought of simply throwing away good hard earned cash with no return. There has to be some practical limits. I was just curious as to whether anyone has established ways of determining where those limits are and how they are established.

[dave6x6]

Yes..

[Nomad]

Thanks Dave.... with all the crops cut early this year ,the deer all moved up to you ! Well ok I scored just fine, but the farm as a whole did not . But then I'm more south then the main farm. I often wished they'd leave some up , but then again they'er in business to sell crops not feed deer, the enemy of crops.

[dave6x6]

Thanks Dave.... with all the crops cut early this year ,the deer all moved up to you ! Well ok I scored just fine, but the farm as a whole did not . But then I'm more south then the main farm. I often wished they'd leave some up , but then again they'er in business to sell crops not feed deer, the enemy of crops.

LOL larry, When you have the amazing deer turf that the BB Farm has, we just sit back here on the fringe and hope we don't do something stupid to screw the deer hunting up.. It's that farm that actually led us into the food plot business. By the end of Nov. you have these great bucks searching for food and we decided to give them all they need and then some. The other major benifit we have seen is the woodlots have become much thicker because they are not getting hammered with browse eatin' deer, and that keeps them feeling much more comfortable and secure on our turf.. You and I are very fortunate .. Edited June 13, 2012 by dave6x6

[growalot]

Doc...I can see the point of your ? ...they can be expensive...and well you know me I'm nothing if not thrifty...lol so ALL my plots start out with a goal different then just bringing deer in...property has to be maintained yearly or in no time you can have an over grown jungle on your hands....with us managing for timber....I want to keep logging trails open and manageable between cuts...I also have many knee...leg and ankle injuries ...but refuse not to hike so I need smoother trails as I age..the bigger areas ... well every property needs to have some open land...ours had been plowed and never disced...not good on equipment so why not feed the critters while smoothing the fields?...So as I look over my 2 miles of trails and woodland openings...little shooting houses and brushed in hide a ways...I'm thinking long term....kids that may get married and have the the weddings here...I picture hooking up a wagon and taking the grands kids...some day if they have any...on hay rides through the woods...or them playing hide and seek or army...cow boys.girls...what ever...just taking the dogs on walks with MrB......So since these things need yearly work to keep them from becoming over grown....why not extend my hobbies of planting things and experimenting with "that won't grow here" stuff...to increase my enjoyment during hunting

Now when I explain it to Mr B like that....Think it takes the sting out of his back pocket?

[Doc]

I absolutely understand. I am often accused of doing "make-work" projects just to stay active. And it's true. I believe that at my age, when I cease to stay busy, I will seize up and come to a quick end. I also understand interest in farming activities. Some of my best days were spent behind the wheel of a tractor, especially as a kid. And of course having been a farm kid growing up in rural NYS, I have a natural attraction to growing things. And the appeal of food plots for me is based on a lot of that. And by the way, I have seen some of the pictures of the areas that you have created, and they absolutely add to the aesthetics of your place. It all obviously represents a heck of a lot of work and results in one beautiful place. It's very rewarding to see the difference that hard work can make.

One of the reasons for the question in this thread was an offer from my Brother-in-law to put in a food plot on his land across the road. My property is almost entirely mature woods with very little acreage that is tillable and he has this huge abandoned field that is starting to go back to brush. My part in this venture would be financial since he has some of the equipment and the land. And, I know he would like to put his whole 24 acre field into a food plot. My initial reaction was that that is a huge area for a food plot, and would cost quite a bit. Great size for an farm hay-field .... lol .... but likely way more than needs to be utilized by the amount of deer in his area. So naturally, my mind turned to the subject of "how big is too big". I thought I might get some insight on here, but I'm beginning to believe that no one has developed any criteria for "right-sizing" food plots. It seems to be only that there is no limit, and bigger is better. Somehow that just doesn't seem to be logical to me, and I have kind of backed off the proposed deal. I was hoping that there might be some procedure, rule of thumb, or whatever for establishing a rough size for a food plot that served the purpose without spending cash on resources that no animal will ever use. So far no one seems to have any knowledge of that kind. Maybe nobody has done any research on that. So anyway, I am still looking for answers.

[growalot]

Well that is where the experiments come in....and where I part ways with all the fancy designer seed brands....you need to let the brother in-law know that especially with new acreage you don't need and shouldn't waste your money on anything but simple seeds that the deer will eat...and even then if they aren't use to it ...in your area...they won't like it very well ,the first year.......Also you don't necessarily have to or should plant it all....

Remember I told a neighbor mow and they will come...for here mowing means clover.......plant the outer edges or plant in alternating strips and mow the none planted...it's late for corn but remember my TC farms feed corn?....now 10-11 a 50# bag but it grew...fed critters and helped break the weed cycle...with little round up and little fertilizer...because first time corn plantings don't need a lot...just liming my case....also the buckwheat I plant....pulls up nutrients not ph sensative...it will grow in lower ...breaks weed cycle with out round up and deer love it....turkey love it....inexpensive...and great for bee hives....winter rye or wheat first time planting doesn't need a lot of fertalizer...and plowed under adds to your soils and breaks weed cycle.......lay a good foundation and the following year will be not as expensive...invest in lime and diesel for mowing/spraying/discing..........try planting edges where stands may be and leave the large open center mowed...just lime ...but you'll need to mow often enough to keep the vegetation from going to seed with out mowing too short...letting it grow high enough in the fall to hide just the body of a bedded deer....you'll be surprised how many deer you'll see feeding and bedding late afternoon / early morning

Let the Brother in-law know that by not messing with planting the entire field at once...your not leaving a baron desert for several weeks...spray down time to working field to plant growth....

One final thought...there are land wars going on around our general area....so if you have a farmer in the area...dairy farms need places to grow and deposit the "pond" waste...so hit the local eatery's early morning and get a conversation going...or just plain knock on doors and ask...it would mean a contract for a few years but they are doing the work putting forth the money and owner is getting $$$ towards taxes...just some thoughts...24 acres may seem small but with land being scarce it may be worth it to a local grower.....Just some things to think over....

[landtracdeerhunter]

Doc, a lot of people have been spoon feeding you. The information is right in the Land Management section. It's called what's working for them. I see success. It's just not in deer harvest either.Yes, their is need for some logic, but excess just makes it to dam complicated, kinda takes all the enjoyment out of it.

Edited June 13, 2012 by landtracdeerhunter

[Culvercreek hunt club]

For the engineer in some....what is the annual tonnage a deer consumes? if we estimate the herd size that are in the area or that we are trying to hold and use some of the info I have seen for different crop types...would that give us a "minimum" to start from. if over feeding takes place they could be added to...right?

I think it better to start small and work up just from a cash invested stance.

If you guys had a lot like Doc is talking about in the 25 acre size.

What would you plant and why?'

Not having my hands in the food plots for very long at all I wonder if mixes with different crop maturing times and a mix of annual and perrinials?

[Doc]

One final thought...there are land wars going on around our general area....so if you have a farmer in the area...dairy farms need places to grow and deposit the "pond" waste...so hit the local eatery's early morning and get a conversation going...or just plain knock on doors and ask...it would mean a contract for a few years but they are doing the work putting forth the money and owner is getting $$$ towards taxes...just some thoughts...24 acres may seem small but with land being scarce it may be worth it to a local grower.....Just some things to think over....

Farming has just about deserted the area. They left the deeper valleys back in the 50's. The nearest farm is almost 8 miles away, and that guy has land of his own that is not being tilled. No, we're pretty much on our own with this project. I just have to talk him down in the size of the operation. A 24 acre plot just seems way over-done for a food plot size.........At least that is my take on it. Actually, that's the info I was hoping to get from this thread. It seems to me that by now there should have been some formula developed by the QDM folks that would take the DEC estimated deer per square mile and tell you an approximate plot size that would take care of all the deer within feeding distance of your plot. I'm not talking exact numbers here, but just some sort of guideline.