Who would

[Paula]

I wouldn't pass on any deer no matter the rack size, but i will not pass on a spike or button buck or a 2 yr old to wait for the 5 -6 yr old buck just so i can have a rack. I have said before i would probably shake uncontrollably and miss or something. so with that i would rather a doe walk in front of me if i feel i have a better shot. Oh and for bragging rights i hope i get the next NY state record buck on the last day of shot gun lol

Edited July 23, 2012 by paula

[Pygmy]

Well, I did mention that I was talking about most of us. Certainly the down-and-outers who are in situations where they have to rely on wild meat for survival perhaps may not be counted in that. And maybe they would find it useful to take as much challenge out of their hunting as possible. However, I wouldn't doubt that even a certain percentage of those enjoy a challenge involved in hunting.

I also allow that there are some who simply enjoy using hunting as an excuse to just sit in the woods, and the gun part of it is simply something to make it all "look" right. I've run into a few that have that as their version of hunting.

But yeah, I do believe that most of us engage in hunting because it poses more of a challenge than heading off to the supermarket, and because there is some measure of pride of accomplishment involved when successful.

I guess I may be putting a somewhat different spin on the term "challenge" than you are, Doc..

I don't prefer going hunting over going to the supermarket because hunting is more challenging, but because it is a lot more FUN and exciting..

We all enjoy a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment when we are successful but it is not necessarily related to the challenge..

I would interperet CHALLENGE as raising the bar, to make our goal more difficult, thus more CHALLENGING.

Lately I have been trying to find easier ways to do things ,rather than more difficult or more challenging ways as are many of my older hunting buddies. I spend a lot more time sitting in a blind for turkeys rather than running and gunning. When I pick a spot to hunt for deer, I am more concerned about having a rest for my gun and the relative difficulty of the drag, rather than whether it is a buck or a doe or a yearling or a mature animal..

Nope...Maybe I am an exception to the rule, but I'm not looking for a challenge..I'm just looking for some pleasant recreation, and hopefully, a little meat for the freezer.

[Doc]

Sure hunting is "fun and exciting". And that is because I have taken on the challenge to get some of that meat the hard way rather than simply buying it. I will flat out say that if hunting was easy I wouldn't do it. If there was no challenge to hunting, I really would trade in my guns and bows for a good camera or some better hiking equipment or maybe some new bowling equipment .... lol.

But anywho, I know from all the discussion about ARs and such that many (most?) members here see hunting as a challenge, and they have a desire to lift that level of challenge pretty high. I kind of agree with that thought .... maybe in different levels or ways, but the challenges of what hunting offers is the very reason I hunt instead of just observe. Perhaps that is why bowhunting is my first love in hunting. Me against the deer with an awful lot in favor of the deer. That's a challenge. And that's what makes it all worth doing.

And based on that, and getting back on topic, I still feel that if you are looking to hunt the most challenging deer in the woods, the old antlered buck may not represent the biggest challenge in the woods (for reasons that I stated above). And if does were all that were legal to shoot, I think I could be very satisfied hunting the old lady-goats. It would take a bit of de-programming to get that antler measure of success out of my head, but I'll bet they would pose a real challenge if their numbers were cut substantially and they became the primary targets as the bucks are today.

[Pygmy]

LOL... Doc..I love hunting "old lady goats" because they ALWAYS taste better than "Old Man Bucks" and they have more meat on them than yearlings...

I agree that they are some of the TOUGHEST deer to hunt..They are always on the alert, usually because they have offspring to look out for..

And as far as challenge goes..That is why I gave up my bow a few years back...I don't need the challenge and would much rather use an implement that I feel more competent with..Preferably a centerfire rifle, but I can still get by with a muzzleleoader or a slug gun also.

[Doc]

LOL... Doc..I love hunting "old lady goats" because they ALWAYS taste better than "Old Man Bucks" and they have more meat on them than yearlings...

I agree that they are some of the TOUGHEST deer to hunt..They are always on the alert, usually because they have offspring to look out for..

And as far as challenge goes..That is why I gave up my bow a few years back...I don't need the challenge and would much rather use an implement that I feel more competent with..Preferably a centerfire rifle, but I can still get by with a muzzleleoader or a slug gun also.

Don't forget the sharpness of them little snots that the old lady goats hang out with. Those extra eyes and ears seem to be some of the sharpest in the woods. It's usually those little guys that seem to be the ones that wind up doing the foot stomp and staring and doing the "head-bob" trick and then give you the whitetail version of the raspberry.

[Woodsman20]

Doc that is an interesting perspective regarding mature does being more challenging. I read everything you said and numbers surely contribute to less sightings of mature bucks and I think everyone knows that during the rut is the time to nail a big buck because that is when they let their guard down. Mature bucks just are inherently more cautious often times even when leaving all the sign in the world they can not even be seen during day light hours. So for 2-3 weeks they let their guard down and begin to chase does - some research even suggests that the older bucks only particpate in the rut at night. That 2-3 weeks is the only time I would even contend that a mature doe would be in the same realm of a challenge.

Mature does have inherently more weaknesses. They do travel in small groups, usually with their or there group's offspring, which forces them to move much more frequently throughout the season during daylight hours. I think the numbers are relative from a sighting perspective in NY, but I would bet that if the numbers were balanced you would see mature does more consistently throughout the season compared to a mature buck.

The only variable in my mind is if there were more mature bucks, this should create more competition which would promote an environment of more movement ... in theory and understanding the right circumstances would have to be present. Fortunatley we are NY though and the odds of ever getting to test this here seem small.

[Skillet]

Woodsman20 - "Mature does have inherently more weaknesses. They do travel in small groups, usually with their or there group's offspring, which forces them to move much more frequently throughout the season during daylight hours."

That also means a whole lot more eyes, ears and noses to try to fool. I wouldn't see that as a weakness at all.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Skillet

[Doc]

Doc that is an interesting perspective regarding mature does being more challenging. I read everything you said and numbers surely contribute to less sightings of mature bucks and I think everyone knows that during the rut is the time to nail a big buck because that is when they let their guard down. Mature bucks just are inherently more cautious often times even when leaving all the sign in the world they can not even be seen during day light hours. So for 2-3 weeks they let their guard down and begin to chase does - some research even suggests that the older bucks only particpate in the rut at night. That 2-3 weeks is the only time I would even contend that a mature doe would be in the same realm of a challenge.

Mature does have inherently more weaknesses. They do travel in small groups, usually with their or there group's offspring, which forces them to move much more frequently throughout the season during daylight hours. I think the numbers are relative from a sighting perspective in NY, but I would bet that if the numbers were balanced you would see mature does more consistently throughout the season compared to a mature buck.

The only variable in my mind is if there were more mature bucks, this should create more competition which would promote an environment of more movement ... in theory and understanding the right circumstances would have to be present. Fortunatley we are NY though and the odds of ever getting to test this here seem small.

I think you might be surprised just how smart a doe can get if they became the sole target during season. If the population ratio were to reverse and does became as scarce as bucks are today, you might just be surprised how they would adapt super-survival tactics without the defence liabilities of rut that bucks always will have. At any rate, as you pointed out, it is truly all a moot point because does will always enjoy some level of protection.

[adkbuck]

I would hunt does only if needed or required.

[Woodsman20]

Skillett - my point was that the weakness is simply that they move more during daylight hours period. You can't shoot something that you don't see which mature bucks seem to have nailed down.

I agree Doc and to quote one of my favorite lines of all time - " If I woke up tomorrow with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised ..."

I have been around (20 yards or less) mature does more times than I can count and they are smart - no doubt - but where I hunt and in my experience, a mature buck is like hunting a different animal. They are on another playing field. If one were to choose a mature doe and a mature buck (a specific one not any) my money is on the mature doe being harvested.

Nonetheless "smart" could have many meanings. I would not say mature does that are protecting their fawns are dumb ... but because of this I think they are subject to being harvested easier than a mature buck. My two cents.

[nyantler]

I agree with woodsman20. Based on personal experience mature does are not nearly as elusive as a larger bucks... I will concede that older does have it over small bucks... there is something to be said for age and experience.

[Doc]

See, it's a hard thing to say since we have never hunted in the theoretical circumstances of the original post. We have never seen situations where the does were the sought after gender, and the bucks were becoming used to getting a free pass. I think the old lady-goats would surprise you with their adaptability. And then given that bucks have those rutting frailties, I suspect that they would appear real stupid, real fast. Not to mention that they would eventually significantly outnumber the does, and actually become plentiful compared to the does.

[upstaterifle]

Sure would.

[nyantler]

See, it's a hard thing to say since we have never hunted in the theoretical circumstances of the original post. We have never seen situations where the does were the sought after gender, and the bucks were becoming used to getting a free pass. I think the old lady-goats would surprise you with their adaptability. And then given that bucks have those rutting frailties, I suspect that they would appear real stupid, real fast. Not to mention that they would eventually significantly outnumber the does, and actually become plentiful compared to the does.

I guess there is something to that...

[Skillet]

Skillett - my point was that the weakness is simply that they move more during daylight hours period. You can't shoot something that you don't see which mature bucks seem to have nailed down.

I agree Doc and to quote one of my favorite lines of all time - " If I woke up tomorrow with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised ..."

I have been around (20 yards or less) mature does more times than I can count and they are smart - no doubt - but where I hunt and in my experience, a mature buck is like hunting a different animal. They are on another playing field. If one were to choose a mature doe and a mature buck (a specific one not any) my money is on the mature doe being harvested.

Nonetheless "smart" could have many meanings. I would not say mature does that are protecting their fawns are dumb ... but because of this I think they are subject to being harvested easier than a mature buck. My two cents.

Ah, I see your point.

[dave6x6]

Doc, i'm not sure if i agree with that but of course we will never know. My feeling is with Woodsman. The reason being, you claim that mature does are getting more of a free pass and that is why they are less weary and more visable. I think there is a flaw in that statement. Here in many parts of NY, anything with a tail is getting shot at and the does are just as aware of the dangers as the Mature Bucks, but they have other obligations and must travel more during daylight hours then Bucks because of that.(protection of offspring) Remember, they also have to worry about the preditors at night, that bucks do not. This also puts does and fawns on their feet more during daylight. Just as mature bucks are distracted during the rut and therefore volnurable during that short time, Does are distracted to some degree almost year round and certainly for the majority of the hunting season. I believe to some degree hunters like to tell themselves that mature does are harder to hunt then mature bucks because it makes them feel like they accomplished something special. Which it is, but lets not make it more then it is. Their both pretty dang smart.

[tj1187]

Taking either one is no small feat and a great accomplishment.

[oneidacountyhunter]

sure would, I hunt for meat not Racks. Racks are just bragging rights. You can't bite into a steak and tell the difference of buck or doe

[Doc]

Doc, i'm not sure if i agree with that but of course we will never know. My feeling is with Woodsman. The reason being, you claim that mature does are getting more of a free pass and that is why they are less weary and more visable. I think there is a flaw in that statement. Here in many parts of NY, anything with a tail is getting shot at and the does are just as aware of the dangers as the Mature Bucks, but they have other obligations and must travel more during daylight hours then Bucks because of that.(protection of offspring) Remember, they also have to worry about the preditors at night, that bucks do not. This also puts does and fawns on their feet more during daylight. Just as mature bucks are distracted during the rut and therefore volnurable during that short time, Does are distracted to some degree almost year round and certainly for the majority of the hunting season. I believe to some degree hunters like to tell themselves that mature does are harder to hunt then mature bucks because it makes them feel like they accomplished something special. Which it is, but lets not make it more then it is. Their both pretty dang smart.

Yes, I do believe that more pressure is put on bucks than does, but I think the bigger reason why the lady-goats seem so much easier to take is simply because there are more of them. So they do seem to be "easier" than bucks.

The scenario posed in the original post is that bucks become an unhuntable gender. That really would change the dynamics considerably. And I believe that the cunning of the does would become as legendary as the bucks are currently.

[nyantler]

There was a small study done years ago to see how ellusive each gender was... From what I recollect of the study.. they put one large buck and one older doe in a fenced wooded area.. I believe in the neighborhood of 100 acres if my memory serves me. Then they put a small group of hunters (no weapons) inside the fenced area to try and locate each deer. The doe was spotted several times over a week long period.. the buck was never seen. Having tracked many of both genders over the years.. I can say from years of personaal experience that a mature buck is much harder to catch up to than any other deer in the woods.

[covert]

If it was does only I would probably still go just for the sake of going, but I'm not sure I would ever take one. I was brought up to never shoot does. I "know" in my head that it is sometimes good to shoot some of the does and I've even drawn down on them before but I just couldn't bring myself to squeeze that trigger. I understand all the arguments for it and some of them even make sense, but it's tough to overcome all those years of Dad and the old timers telling you not to.

[nyantler]

If it was does only I would probably still go just for the sake of going, but I'm not sure I would ever take one. I was brought up to never shoot does. I "know" in my head that it is sometimes good to shoot some of the does and I've even drawn down on them before but I just couldn't bring myself to squeeze that trigger. I understand all the arguments for it and some of them even make sense, but it's tough to overcome all those years of Dad and the old timers telling you not to.

That has always been my thought for the reason deer management hasn't progressed like it should... many of us experienced the same thing as you did with you Dad and Grandfather... until we realize that our fathers and grandfathers knew nothing of deer biology.. it will be hard to undo what they thought us.

[Doc]

That has always been my thought for the reason deer management hasn't progressed like it should... many of us experienced the same thing as you did with you Dad and Grandfather... until we realize that our fathers and grandfathers knew nothing of deer biology.. it will be hard to undo what they thought us.

Of course the original premise of this thread where shooting bucks was made illegal wouldn't exactly be a stellar display of deer biology and proper management either.....lol. Actually, it turns out that the "bucks only" regulations and attitudes of the past were the only thing that brought the populations back from the brink of extinction. Yes, I think the old-timers understood enough "biology" to know that it is the doe harvest that impacts the population. Of course all that was then and this is now. Things change, and different conditions require different attitudes and responses. There's only so much that we can blame on the prior generations and then we have to start looking at ourselves. It's good to pay attention to what we were taught, but there has to be some level of flexibility in our thinking to update with changing conditions.