12 killed, 38 hurt in Colorado shooting

[WNYBuckHunter]

I believe it was this incident that brought about the body armor drill. I may be wrong though and it may have been that one and some others combined. Anyway, the police at that time were trained to shoot center mass and the body armor defeated their pistol rounds and they just never thought to shoot them in the head. Most of the cops were too far away from the shooters for head shots with a handgun but not all were and those that were close enough shot center mass. Later training taught the body armor drill and also cops were given rifles for patrol so they wouldn't be out gunned like that again.. Joe blow with a 9mm and a bit of competance could defeat the guy. That is joe blow has a chance of defeating him if he tries. If nobody tries then the guy can't be defeated.

Youre talking about training, which is what I have said all along. Im not saying most people need training to shoot someone in the head, or have a chance at having any effect. Im saying that most people would need training to be able to even have the frame of mind to think straight in a situation like that.

This incident has really gotten me to thinking that maybe I need to go to at least some defensive or tactical training, as I have no honest idea how I would react to something like that.

[MountainHunter]

Deleted.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Scot

[adirondackbushwhack]

If you crop that a little you can probably get it on a bumper sticker!

Excepting that it is too important an issue. Nothing is more important than liberty. Liberty is the reason for the 2nd amendment.

[MountainHunter]

My intention was to delete that post. Not that I didn't believe what I was saying but because I am really not here to argue with people. There are issues I feel strongly about and I will never be insulted or takent to task by someone with out responding.

I believe it is way to easy to buy firearms in many states in this country and there are to many firearms in the hands of people who are not technically competent or emotionally stable. My last sentence is repeatedly being proven by the incidents that continue to happen in our country.

The difference between myself and some here is I want to actually do something about it.

[adirondackbushwhack]

My intention was to delete that post. Not that I didn't believe what I was saying but because I am really not here to argue with people. There are issues I feel strongly about and I will never be insulted or takent to task by someone with out responding.

I believe it is way to easy to buy firearms in many states in this country and there are to many firearms in the hands of people who are not technically competent or emotionally stable. My last sentence is repeatedly being proven by the incidents that continue to happen in our country.

The difference between myself and some here is I want to actually do something about it.

Did I insult you?

Depriving your fellow good citzens of their liberty isn't doing something about the problem you wish to address it is only creating a newer and bigger problem.

[MountainHunter]

No you hadn't insulted me. How about the people in that Movie Theatre? Were their Liberties infringed upon? Were they not entitled to a better vetting process of those who are allowed to buy firearms? Or is the price of your liberty their blood? Sounds great until it is your loved one who lost their life or who was permanently injured.

[SteveB]

Yes - there liberties where infringed on.

They where not allowed a choice to be able to possibly defend themselves form a crazy.

Edited July 23, 2012 by SteveB

[Doc]

One has to wonder how many of those people in that theater were frustrated out of carrying the means to protect themselves by some of the anti-gun laws that some are so fond of. I suspect that a theater was chosen primarily because it was understood that the liklihood of anyone posing a serious armed threat to his attack was pretty well nil. I'm thinking that the fact that the government has been working diligently to disarm the public is the very reason why a firearms attack is becoming more the tactic of choice. What exactly are the odds these days that any group you intend to terrorize has an armed citizen among them? It certainly does embolden those that wish to do harm filling them with confidence that they can do as they please with absolutely no possibility of resistance.

[adirondackbushwhack]

No you hadn't insulted me. How about the people in that Movie Theatre? Were their Liberties infringed upon? Were they not entitled to a better vetting process of those who are allowed to buy firearms? Or is the price of your liberty their blood? Sounds great until it is your loved one who lost their life or who was permanently injured.

I think the other folks covered it pretty well. Had they easyer access to personal firarms for protection they had a chance to defend themselves. I suppose we will never know IF any of them were prohibited from carrying arms because of difficulties in being able to do so however I will bet that if the idea of carrying for personal protection were promoted rather than vilified then someone would certainly have been carrying. Better yet the bad guy would know that someone would be carrying and never attempt what he did on armed citizens.

[Deerthug]

I read that some of the victims were in the military. One was an Iraq War Veteran who survived because the shooter's AR jammed. I wonder if he or any of them were carrying and whether they had a chance to return fire or would have returned fire. I've never been in the military and don't know if they are permitted to CC when not on active duty.

[First-light]

I believe 4 of the victims were service people. I wonder if they wen't down trying to protect? Probably so.

[MountainHunter]

Who here is vilifying anyone for carrying for personal protection? Here, I will help you, that would be no one! Not me. If you believe that to be the case. Quote where I stated that.

I have no issue with concealed carry with any person who has been properly vetted and trained.

I do have a problem with any schmo walking in off the street and buying what ever they want without some kind of a process being in place.

Most of you guys are talking out of your a--es. Talk to Police Agencies and see how many of them are going to just open fire in a crowded public place.

Dark Theatre, gas canisters, people screaming, bodies falling, people getting trampled while running to the exits and some of our super hero's here are going to lace this guy? Yeah right! How many innocent people would you have taken out with him? Yeah, you killed three people but you didn't go down passively!

How many police people do any of you want to hear from? I have a two year degree in Criminal Justice and a four year minor in it. I have many friends that are cops. They would tell you that you are being idiotic.

Unless you put your pistol barrel in this guys face or base of his neck how could anyone possibly get off a safe shot at this guy under those circumstances?

Knowledge of when to use your weapon is just as important as the weapon itself. What if 20 people in that theatre were carrying and they all opened fire on the guy? Would fewer people have died? would they have started to shoot at one another not knowing who the bad guy was?

The scary thing is some or most of you believe what you are saying!

Personal protection one on one or one on three or four is vastly different than taking someone out in a crowded movie theatre with mass hysteria going on!

[growalot]

Actually Doc....didn't that happen in Aurora? because I can tell you and I bet Culvercreek can as well ...that is one of the WORST suburbs of Denver...gangs...violence school lock downs..the whole nine yards...I'm actually surprised no one was carrying a weapon...not only do we have family out there but Mr.B lived there for 18 months working on the base when the kids were in grade school...He had some scary crap to tell....

[Doc]

I do have a problem with any schmo walking in off the street and buying what ever they want without some kind of a process being in place.

Scot, you know as well as any of us that there is plenty of "process" in place. There are volumes of laws and procedures already on the books (some of them duplicated many times over), that along with a small handful of meaningful laws place plenty of additional road-blocks and worthless harrassments on law-abiding potential gun owners. In fact the subject of gun ownership may very well be the most wildly regulated activity in our whole system of laws. And yet even with these massive volumes of gun laws, none have stopped these crazy acts from taking place. We love to compose and dump these laws on our citizenry, and yet there is no evidence that any of them or all of them are able to stop crazies from doing what they are going to do. Look, terrorists have made an art-form of snubbing their noses at our gun laws. I think that a certain amount of basic gun laws may actually deter some crimes, but I think we long ago reached the end of the usefulness of that course of action. Today the new laws appear to be more aimed at harrassing guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens than any real constructive attempt to control crime. And you know what? ..... I believe that is exactly the intent.

Today, when nobody can think of a useful solution, their frustration makes them start in with the knee-jerk, "there ought to be a law" kind of chanting. So, as I asked once already in a previous reply, specifically what new laws do you support that you believe would have prevented this crime? What new law would have prevented this guy from walking into that theater and opening fire?

[First-light]

If no action takes place the same thing will happen over and over again. Put a variable in place and it will stop some these crazy acts. That is good enough for me, someones life was just saved.

For example, take away that 100 round clip he was able to use. Yes, some of these crazies may find them anyway but it may stop a few, lives saved. It has to start somewhere, laws that govern ammunition and guns that serve no purpose to the ordinary American have to be put in place.

[WNYBuckHunter]

If no action takes place the same thing will happen over and over again. Put a variable in place and it will stop some these crazy acts. That is good enough for me, someones life was just saved.

For example, take away that 100 round clip he was able to use. Yes, some of these crazies may find them anyway but it may stop a few, lives saved. It has to start somewhere, laws that govern ammunition and guns that serve no purpose to the ordinary American have to be put in place.

From what I have read, that 100 round magazine (a clip goes in a girls hair) jammed and probably saved alot of people. Those drums are notoriously finacky if not taken care of properly. Honestly, the guy could have probably done more damage with a few 30 round mags. They dont jam as often and it doesnt take much time to reload. He could have killed as many people as he did, just as quickly with 10 round mags even.

Even if you banned them, they can still be had illegally. Remember, criminals dont follow the law anyway.

[growalot]

What the real problem revolves around is a lack of cohesive data...he had to have gone through some kind of checks at the two separate stores....in this day and age there is no reason that the separate purchases couldn't have been linked to the single name in a FBI data base the same day the second purchase was made..programming for age and types of purchase could have flagged him...for the very least an over view...though perhaps that did happen and they choose not to mention it seeing no action was taken?.....

[MountainHunter]

Here you go Doc. How about having to have a pistol permit to buy a hand gun in Colorado. How about having to register a hand gun in Colorado.

Do either of those work for you?

Is that to freaking much to ask? Or do those requirements strike you as harrassment?

There is also no safety training requirement in Colorado.

These things seem like reasonable requirements to me. How about to you?

We all know you can't stop crazy, but we should be making effort to make it harder to have it happen with legally acquired firearms.

[Dinsdale]

There is also no safety training requirement in Colorado.

Nothing for nothing Scot; but just over the bridge here in Dutchess, I have a full conceal carry with out a spot of training. (unlike Ulster where you have to take a class)

And that's ALL they give out there are never any restrictions here.

The laws and restrictions vary all over the country by state and counties.

[MountainHunter]

Wow! In general that's not good! Im surprised.

[MountainHunter]

I was referring to Dutchess county.

[Dinsdale]

Wow! In general that's not good! Im surprised.

Guess you may be avoiding the Lyceum in Red Hook, eh?

The sum total of paperwork to read here is a folded pamplet that has more to do with buying and selling from a dealer or private, and how to get one on or off your license.

So there ya' go; even in this state there are variables.

[First-light]

From what I have read, that 100 round magazine (a clip goes in a girls hair) jammed and probably saved alot of people. Those drums are notoriously finacky if not taken care of properly. Honestly, the guy could have probably done more damage with a few 30 round mags. They dont jam as often and it doesnt take much time to reload. He could have killed as many people as he did, just as quickly with 10 round mags even.

Even if you banned them, they can still be had illegally. Remember, criminals dont follow the law anyway.

I believe that is what I said.

BTW you know what I meant by using the word clip, snarky on your part to correct me.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Nothing for nothing Scot; but just over the bridge here in Dutchess, I have a full conceal carry with out a spot of training. (unlike Ulster where you have to take a class)

And that's ALL they give out there are never any restrictions here.

The laws and restrictions vary all over the country by state and counties.

Same here. No training, no classes of any kind.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I believe that is what I said.

BTW you know what I meant by using the word clip, snarky on your part to correct me.

My point was more that the size of the mag isnt a real big part of the issue, it could have easilly been pulled off with lower cap mags.

I wasnt being snarky, just didnt think youd miss the humor. Another case where smileys would come in handy with my ipad.