Management Buck?

[BizCT]

I'm sure it was thought through and planned for some time. It's not like he woke up 1 day and said "you know what, today I will quit my job and move to Iowa". Im sure it was more along the lines of having a decent nest egg of $, buying a farm in Iowa and making some sort of money off it. I also believe he had the right connections, etc. He's not a better hunter than many people on this site would be with the same resources. Good for him, I have nothing against him.

All I'm saying is that these guys on the TV hunting shows make it look easy, because they see more bucks in 1 afternoon, then most people do all season! The way they talk and move, etc....if I did that where I hunt and there was a spike 100 yards away from me, he would be gone in a second!

[phade]

FYI, for the original topic, read this; I know Lindsay and he does his homework - he has access to the best deer biologists on the planet.

http://www.qdma.com/articles/why-we-cant-manage-deer-genetics

[NFA-ADK]

If you are managing for trophy deer and he is not up to standard at the age required, shoot him. That will prevent HIM from spreading bad genes. Will it stop the defect he might have, no the defect is probably in many deer in the area but if you kill him he has no chance of spreading that bad defect. I understand you can not change the gene pool yet you can prevent known bad genetics from spreading by taking undesireable deer. Personaly I would give him a pass as he seems to have a large body and a small head indicating he is still young and has some developing he can do and I see nothing wrong with him geneticly...

Many say we can not have a 150 + class deer in NY? DO not tell the Edwards family that...

Dave Jr. took a 200 + class deer in 2010 that was a monster (largest typical for that year)and his dad took a 140 + class deer in 2011 that any NY hunter would be proud of, IMO. It can be done if you have a large enough area and participating hunters in the area... Easy, NO but not impossible depending on a bunch of things... It is a exteamly high standard for NY I agree. Even though I consider myself a mature deer hunter I do not think I could pass on the buck that Mr.Dave Edwards Sr took in 2011. Tell me do you really think you would pass this deer? This deer is not up to the 150 standard you set...

http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com/2011-new-york-whitetails.html

His picture is the 10th one from the bottom, or he is the only person wearing jeans with sun glasses and sneakers camo shirt and hat. I would have shot this deer anywhere in NY. 20$ fine for shooting a deer yea no problem here is 50$. I am sorry but any buck close to 140 that I see is a NY trophy in my book... 150 is unrealistic from what I have seen, again not impossible but I think with that standard you will be lossing hunters or getting discouraged.

This is the same property where his son took a monster in 2010...

http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com/edwards-buck.html

Like many have stated you can not change the genetics yet you can prevent known bad genes from spreading by taking undesireable deer. With this help change the gene pool, probably not but it will stop a known bad gene from spreading more. Every deer in the area probably has the gene but not all will exhibit its bad traits...

EX: If I have a bunch of beautiful 8 point deer roaming my property and one has a horrible growth every year, I can kill that deer in hopes of preventing him from spreading his defect. Will this gaurantee no other buck has a defect like the one I kill, NO the bad genes are still in the area but HE will not spread his gene that has the prevelant defect.

OK I will end this all. I have a extra 20$ can I take him as my 1st bow kill? LOL Funny thing is I would let him go and probably not see anything for the rest of the hunt. IF another hunter tagged him 5 minutes after he passed me, I would go over to that hunter and give him a congrats no regrets. Don't make hunting a dull experience do what you want to make you happy. If killing any deer makes it for you go for it. If hunting a dominant buck is your thing then do not complain about NOT shooting deer every year... Unless your name is Benoit or something that rymes with that you have no chance at big deer every year... lol J/K

8 weeks and counting untile Northern zone bow Sept 27th. Now if I see that buck a few miles back in the ADK I might let my first arrow after 12 years of hunting with a bow fly. But I have passed on them before...

[phade]

I'm sure it was thought through and planned for some time. It's not like he woke up 1 day and said "you know what, today I will quit my job and move to Iowa". Im sure it was more along the lines of having a decent nest egg of $, buying a farm in Iowa and making some sort of money off it. I also believe he had the right connections, etc. He's not a better hunter than many people on this site would be with the same resources. Good for him, I have nothing against him.

All I'm saying is that these guys on the TV hunting shows make it look easy, because they see more bucks in 1 afternoon, then most people do all season! The way they talk and move, etc....if I did that where I hunt and there was a spike 100 yards away from me, he would be gone in a second!

I think you are talking apples and oranges. I said nothing about their hunting prowess.

Whatever their business plan was, the move was made. Very few people make such a transition in their lives.

I also agree that most TV hunters are not necessarily the best, but of them all Lee is up there. I've had enough conversations with him to know that he knows what he is talking about. Tiffany contrary to the image she has, is a great shot with a bow. Greg Miller is another. Hayes is as well.

I've met more than a few where I just shook my head after meeting them.

No question great land can make a bad hunter look good.

[phade]

Oy, I give up on this thread. Taking him to improve genetics quality is a waste of time and tag if you have a plan. Simple as that.

[BizCT]

Both of those bucks have really really white antlers, just saying.

[NFA-ADK]

Oy, I give up on this thread. Taking him to improve genetics quality is a waste of time and tag if you have a plan. Simple as that.

Taking a known bad buck with horrible genetics will not stop the gene but it will prevent that buck with a horrible rack from spreading his defective dominant gene. I never said it would improve the genetics but it will prevent HIM from spreading a known bad Gene...

Would you want a 4 1/2 year old buck that never grows a left side antler to bread your does? Now you start to see many bucks with NO L/S antlers around and wonder if you should have shot him when he was a 2 year old breading does. The doe's still have the Gene yet if you kill that one buck he has NO CHANCE of breeding...

This will not impove the gene pool but it will stop a inherited bad prevelant gene from coming back into the pool from that buck if he is removed... Again the gene is still in the area you will still get similar bucks but if you kill him then his gene that has the traits that we do not want will be stopped from him transmitting it.

Funny some say the gene pool can not change, I guese that means bucks must stay in the area they are born and never leave. And no outside buck can come into a differant heard, are you kidding me?

And in so far as a buck staying in a mile area 640 acres they must be those southern bucks because I have tracked many bucks more than a few miles.

I understand it is hard to change the gene pool but to say it can not be changed is kind of short sighted IMO...

[WNYBuckHunter]

NFA, its not that the gene pool cant change, its just that it would take so long for it to happen, you wouldnt hunt long enough to see it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

the stinking does have half the genes in the new offspring. those you can't tale out or even guess what they are throwing into the mix...it is totally a waste...unless the crap rack are a pure recessive gene and that is the ONLY way it will end up dominating th eherd...and that could take millions of years. (refer to our blue eyes)

[phade]

Taking a known bad buck with horrible genetics will not stop the gene but it will prevent that buck with a horrible rack from spreading his defective dominant gene. I never said it would improve the genetics but it will prevent HIM from spreading a known bad Gene...

Would you want a 4 1/2 year old buck that never grows a left side antler to bread your does? Now you start to see many bucks with NO L/S antlers around and wonder if you should have shot him when he was a 2 year old breading does. The doe's still have the Gene yet if you kill that one buck he has NO CHANCE of breeding...

This will not impove the gene pool but it will stop a inherited bad prevelant gene from coming back into the pool from that buck if he is removed... Again the gene is still in the area you will still get similar bucks but if you kill him then his gene that has the traits that we do not want will be stopped from him transmitting it.

Funny some say the gene pool can not change, I guese that means bucks must stay in the area they are born and never leave. And no outside buck can come into a differant heard, are you kidding me?

And in so far as a buck staying in a mile area 640 acres they must be those southern bucks because I have tracked many bucks more than a few miles.

I understand it is hard to change the gene pool but to say it can not be changed is kind of short sighted IMO...

You missed every single point of logic and science in this thread...missing the forest for the trees. I really don't know what else to say. If you honestly believe what you believe then so be it. I implore you to read the article I linked...it answers all of your questions, really it does. Almost section by section.

Edited August 2, 2012 by phade

[phade]

NFA, its not that the gene pool cant change, its just that it would take so long for it to happen, you wouldnt hunt long enough to see it.

True, it is actually the opposite...the gene pool is CONSTANTLY changing. Nature is designed that way.

Our ability to impact it to grow antler size or eliminate a trait is pissing into the wind. I hope some of these guys have their rain gear on...gonna get wet.

Edited August 2, 2012 by phade

[nyantler]

Do you think he would be a bigger 6 or 8 next year? The reason I posted this buck was to get feed back from someone who has better knowledge on qdm and deer potential. If this is a 2yr old deer then personally I would like to see him as a 3yr old if I'm convinced this deer reached his top potential then it's time for him to be on hit list...if not maybe we as a club decide he is off limits just looking for opinions

Its hard to know what a bucks real potential is.. there are too many factors involved...only you and the guys you hunt with can make a determination of whether or not he's a shooter... I'm not into managing for antlers .. when I see a mature buck that impresses me I shoot him... this buck is mature enough for me and has nice headgear.. especially for a six point. I wouldn't shoot him for any reason other than he "blows my skirt up". Although I can't be certain.. I would bet that this buck will always have just a 6-point frame... he may get a few stickers as he gets older but thats my guess. And it's nothing more than a guess... one thing all my knowledge of whitetails has shown me is that in the whitetail world anything is possible. No mature buck needs to be off limits for herd management only yearlings bucks and most 2.5 year olds... beyond that.. most mature bucks will become very experienced and you may never get more than just a quick glance at him anyway... in most cases the older a buck gets.. "the older a buck gets"... if you get my drift.

[WNYBuckHunter]

True, it is actually the opposite...the gene pool is CONSTANTLY changing. Nature is designed that way.

Our ability to impact it to grow antler size or eliminate a trait is pissing into the wind. I hope some of these guys have their rain gear on...gonna get wet.

I should have been more clear and said that it would take so long to do through selective harvest, that one wouldnt be hunting long enough to see it happen.

[dave6x6]

Well for me, i love this time of year and i love to hear other peoples opinions and thoughts on deer hunting. To the original poster i would just say that your goals are certainly high but by no means unrealistic. There are many people in NY who have successfully changed their average hunting properties into extrodinary ones, and they have the racks on the wall to show their efforts were not wasted.. None of them appear to be "Burnt out" either. They are in many ways the most content hunters i know. Some on here believe your goals are not obtainable. I'm not one of them. I've been fortunate enough to live in that reality. 150" bucks are not a pipe dream. There are more of them on the hoof then most people would ever imagine. Killing them is the hard part. Or lucky part. But I know hunters that expect to pursue these types of deer every single year. Why can't you??

[nyantler]

Just as a question for some of those that think that this buck would be good to get out of the gene pool... When have you ever seen such an exceptional 6-point?

[dave6x6]

I have.... But i agree with you Joe

[phade]

2010.

dave...its not that 150 isnt attainable...its his situation based on info provided. this is a guy talking about free range genetic culling on 300 acres in NY. he needs to walk before running.

[Doc]

Just as a question for some of those that think that this buck would be good to get out of the gene pool... When have you ever seen such an exceptional 6-point?

See, that's why I really don't get all that hung up on antler scores. That is a magnificent buck that I would have a real problem criticizing. Really, the score could never convey how nice a deer that is. I think he definitely has a place in the gene-pool, and I would never shoot him just because of his genetics. Shoot him because he is a great buck and let mother nature take care of genetics. That's just the way I approach hunting. I'm not a big fan of measuring success by the numbers and that's where I disagree with a lot of hunters and a lot of the fancy management fads.

[nyantler]

Another nice 6-point taken by a friend... my kind of genetics.

[33Canuck]

I have.... But i agree with you Joe

Damn you Dave, that buck was awesome......... def no ordinary 6'er

[SplitG2]

If the guy wants to manage his property that way so be it. That's the great thing about hunting and owning land. besided the dec regs, you as a hunter makes the decision to harvest that animal. Some shoot anything, some by rack size and some by age. Is it perfect? No but nothing is. I go by age on my property. I haven't taken a mature deer since 2006(6pt, 5 1/2yrold, dressed 180lbs) Some would say im crazy going that long but I say I'm fine with it.

[phade]

If the guy wants to manage his property that way so be it. That's the great thing about hunting and owning land. besided the dec regs, you as a hunter makes the decision to harvest that animal. Some shoot anything, some by rack size and some by age. Is it perfect? No but nothing is. I go by age on my property. I haven't taken a mature deer since 2006(6pt, 5 1/2yrold, dressed 180lbs) Some would say im crazy going that long but I say I'm fine with it.

Very good summation. Do as you see fit ethically and by law.

If you want to cull, go for it. Just don't ask about it on a forum and expect people to say "thatta boy". Maybe they'll learn something by this thread after all.

[QB1]

I really like the responses to the original post. What I am taking from this is that even if we want to "manage" our property the idea of taking out less quality bucks is pointless. The best plan would be to let the small bucks walk and hope they make it to next year which is what we currently practice. In the 3 years I've hunted this property no one has shot a deer purley because of genetics/antler potential. I will keep tabs on this specific 6pt and hopefully get a pic or two when he loses his velvet.

** favorite quote..."Personally, I'd shoot the SOB because I'm the baddest MoFo in the woods, not him, ha."** I like to think the same thing

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Now that sounds like a "plan"...lol. Good luck and personally I think he would make a great mount.

[mt624]

If the guy wants to manage his property that way so be it. That's the great thing about hunting and owning land. besided the dec regs, you as a hunter makes the decision to harvest that animal. Some shoot anything, some by rack size and some by age. Is it perfect? No but nothing is. I go by age on my property. I haven't taken a mature deer since 2006(6pt, 5 1/2yrold, dressed 180lbs) Some would say im crazy going that long but I say I'm fine with it.

+1 well said!

Good luck this season Miz!