Moral Ecological Dilemma

[erussell]

Hunting is #1 most and foremost Population control. You have a moral obligation to kill deer and predators. I have witnessed first hand what happens to deer when they get overpopulated and there is a rough winter. Its not pretty and IMO Animal cruelty. Predator overpopulation can lead to game number crashes, leaving the predators starving and seeking food where humans live. And lets not forget diseases like rabies. # 2 Hunting is the purest form of Conservation there is. Hunters have done more to improve habitat and animal #'s than any Wako environmental group has ever done. Just look at the train wreck in the ADK park. Yeah its pretty, but I think most of the guys who hunt up there would agree with me that 90% of it its usless for wildlife due to the imbecilic forever wild debacle.

Edited August 9, 2012 by erussell

[Doc]

I have a hard time defining exactly what hunting is; a sport, hobby, passion, obsession, pastime, .......

We've come a long ways since it was a part of survival. No one will starve if they don't have game in the freezer.......

I see hunting as a response to our primal need to fulfill an instinctive, genetically based, predatory, human make-up. Of course we try to civilize it by calling it a hobby or a sport, but I have always felt there was far more than simply that. Something initially brought me to these kinds of activities of hunting, fishing and trapping. I don't think it was merely a search for something to do. I'm not sure I completely understand it all, but I think the real motivation is buried in psyche and is a result of a lot of passed-down DNA.

There is also some aspect of cultural, historical, linkage going on along with some kind of element of living our place in nature. Most of that crap is going on sub-consciously, but I do occasionally find myself thinking about the historical and cultural relevance of hunting as well as the fact that I am part of nature and not simply some bystander or passive observer.

Let's face it, we didn't just wake up one day and decide that we wanted to go out and kill something. There is a whole lot more to it than that. We can dress it all up and call it a sport or pass-time, but the roots of the activity are much deeper than that.

[mike rossi]

It is a sport, just not a competitive sport... The amount of passion a person has for the sport of hunting defines whether it is a hobby or a lifestyle...

[Doewhacker]

I see hunting as a response to our primal need to fulfill an instinctive, genetically based, predatory, human make-up. Of course we try to civilize it by calling it a hobby or a sport, but I have always felt there was far more than simply that. Something initially brought me to these kinds of activities of hunting, fishing and trapping. I don't think it was merely a search for something to do. I'm not sure I completely understand it all, but I think the real motivation is buried in psyche and is a result of a lot of passed-down DNA.

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I agree with that, maybe not so for every one but absolutely for some of us. I relate it to any sporting dog, some lines are strong and the dogs are born hunting machines, other not so much.

[nyantler]

I think we all start hunting for a much different reason than why we do it later in life. It's kind of an evolution... I started because my Dad loved to hunt and it was something we could enjoy together... as a kid sometimes killing a deer was an ego thing... trying to prove yourself as an accomplished hunter... as you get older you realize all the other reasons that you enjoy it... the killing has become secondary for me.. and the ego thing seems a bit silly now...where many other experiences that haven't resulted in harvesting a buck are some of the best stories to share.

[First-light]

I think we all start hunting for a much different reason than why we do it later in life. It's kind of an evolution... I started because my Dad loved to hunt and it was something we could enjoy together... as a kid sometimes killing a deer was an ego thing... trying to prove yourself as an accomplished hunter... as you get older you realize all the other reasons that you enjoy it... the killing has become secondary for me.. and the ego thing seems a bit silly now...where many other experiences that haven't resulted in harvesting a buck are some of the best stories to share.

Well said Joe.

When I as young I was fascinated with the outdoors and the Whitetail became a focal point. I just wanted to learn as much as I could about them. Harvesting one of these animals was icing on the cake. To this day I still get a kick out of watching a doe and her yearlings hanging around my tree stand. At times it is more entertaining than a nice buck that slips by in a few seconds. They are pretty amazing animals. My limit is two deer a year. We use all the meat, nothing goes to waste.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I agree with Doc and a few others on this one. To add to it, if I really had to justify it to myself, I probably wouldnt do it. I know quite a few people that tried hunting, were successful at it and could never get over trying to justify it to themselves, and decided it wasnt for them. None of them have a problem with it, its just not for them.

[nyslowhand]

I see hunting as a response to our primal need to fulfill an instinctive, genetically based, predatory, human make-up....... but I think the real motivation is buried in psyche and is a result of a lot of passed-down DNA.

So it's the killing & consuming that draws you to hunting?

Pretty sure my DNA has evolved beyond that hunter/gatherer or predatory stage.

I got involved by means of environment influences, family all hunted.

[Elmo]

I agree with Doc and a few others on this one. To add to it, if I really had to justify it to myself, I probably wouldnt do it. I know quite a few people that tried hunting, were successful at it and could never get over trying to justify it to themselves, and decided it wasnt for them. None of them have a problem with it, its just not for them.

Enjoyed the responses from everyone. Don't get me wrong. I love hunting and continue to do so. It's more of what and how I hunt and what I should be doing more of to contribute back to nature.

[Doc]

So it's the killing & consuming that draws you to hunting?

Pretty sure my DNA has evolved beyond that hunter/gatherer or predatory stage.

I got involved by means of environment influences, family all hunted.

Sure enough, that's all part of it. That's why I carry a bow or a gun instead of a camera. Actually the moral superiority thing of evolving out of those primal instincts is exactly the attitude that anti-hunter groups use to condemn hunting. They too claim an evolution that denies the basic nature of where we all came from. For that reason, they see no justification for taking the lives of animals.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Enjoyed the responses from everyone. Don't get me wrong. I love hunting and continue to do so. It's more of what and how I hunt and what I should be doing more of to contribute back to nature.

Gottcha. I was just throwing that out there.

IMO, just do what you feel is right and what you enjoy/are comfortable with (within the limits of the law of course) and dont sweat the rest. Theres nothing worse than taking something you love and turning it into something you dont lol.

[oneidacountyhunter]

I think everyone has there own reasons for hunting. While not everyone will agree with each others, they are your beliefs and you own them. If you want to shoot a yearling, do it. If you want to rack hunt, do it. You don't have to justify a legal kill to anyone but yourself. As far as predator hunting all I can say is its good to be King. We can shoot predators like coyote for mounts, hide, or just to leave in the woods. Whatever. Only you can decide what makes you sleep good at night

[mike rossi]

Enjoyed the responses from everyone. Don't get me wrong. I love hunting and continue to do so. It's more of what and how I hunt and what I should be doing more of to contribute back to nature.

If you research wanton waste laws you will know your legal obligations for eating or using harvested game. If someone wants to maintain a higher level of ethics than the law requires it is of course a personal choice.

In the first paragraph of the position statement of The Wildlife Society on the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation it states: "Wildlife Should Only be Killed for a Legitimate Purpose". Since The Wildlife Society does not oppose hunting or trapping for fur they must consider it a "legitimate purpose".

When we discuss predators, we tend to confuse two different issues. One issue is whether it is ethical to kill them and not eat them. You can eat predators, nobody is stopping you. The meat has relatively more toxins but that doesnt stop people from eating tuna.

The other issue is if killing them to increase prey species is ethical, especially when we turn around and say we also hunt that same prey species for population control. Predator control is part of many restoration efforts for birds, turtles, and other small animals which have become endangered - its not all about deer and elk.

Trophy hunting was one of the anti-hunting lobbies most common critisms, until trophy hunting fell out of favor with hunters. With renewed interest in trophy hunting and the use of AR and QDM the anti-hunting lobby will surely ressurect those arguments.The arguments claim culling the fittest animals is a result of trophy hunting and is not sound. That off course does not account for doe permits allocatted based on data from population inventories. If you dont want to trophy hunt, you can still hunt other legal deer or small game...

[Elmo]

Predator control is part of many restoration efforts for birds, turtles, and other small animals which have become endangered - its not all about deer and elk.

Thank you, Mike. This was a perspective I never thought about.

[nyantler]

I agree with Doc and a few others on this one. To add to it, if I really had to justify it to myself, I probably wouldnt do it. I know quite a few people that tried hunting, were successful at it and could never get over trying to justify it to themselves, and decided it wasnt for them. None of them have a problem with it, its just not for them.

It is definitely not for everyone... I even think there are hunters that still do it, but could take it or leave it. We have a couple guys at hunting camp that probably would never hunt if we didn't have a camp for them to come to... they just aren't comfortable hunting on their own...

[Doc]

It is definitely not for everyone... I even think there are hunters that still do it, but could take it or leave it. We have a couple guys at hunting camp that probably would never hunt if we didn't have a camp for them to come to... they just aren't comfortable hunting on their own...

I think there are a pretty good sized percentage of the hunters that are like the guys you are describing. I'm not sure how things are where you hunt, but in our area, you can see it in the parking lots that thin out early on opening day, and never do fill up again for the rest of the season like they used to a few decades ago. The number of hunters that you see in the woods drop off to near nothing after the opening weekend. Even thanksgiving day is only a shadow of what it used to be a bunch of years back. All that tells me that the bulk of the hunters are half-day hunters or at best they are 1 or 2 day hunters. I have heard it from a lot of people .... "Oh yeah, I do a little hunting". I'm thinking that if you were to remove the casual hunters from our ranks, we wouldn't have enough numbers for anyone to pay attention to. I further believe that these are the guys that will be deserting the sport in the next decade or so.

We sit here thinking that our fanatical views on hunting and how it fits into our lives is the way most hunters think. I think that's not true. So, when thinking about this question of "why do we hunt", I can't help but wonder why these "casual" hunters hunt. I also wonder just how long they will continue to hunt.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think youre right Doc.

[mike rossi]

Elmo, you also asked about what you could do to give back, I can give you some suggestions but it all hinges on the amount of time and travel you can commit to. There are volunteer opportunities in NY with the DEC, the fish and wildlife service, and with any number of conservation organizations, you can find them using a search engine. By the way most of the volunteers banding doves in Jersey have been vegan types. NY has been banding doves since 2008 and if/when the DEC or FWS use volunteers to band doves in NY lets hope some hunters are involved. I am surprised nobody suggested that you teach hunter - ed the most well known volunteer task.

This is going to be unpopular, but thats too bad... The conservation organizations I am talking about are not a bunch of grumpy old men complaining about the democrats at 8 PM on a tuesday night and who are seeking volunteers to clean up their trash later in the week - that is helping out at the shooting range but its not conservation. I am talking about getting out in the field with a chapter of DU, RGS, or Delta Waterfowl or a similair organization to assist with conservation projects.

If you dont have the time to volunteer and are thinking about donating cash, I would make sure the chapter you donate to will "spend your money wisely"...

[Elmo]

Mike, PM sent.

[mike rossi]

Are we talking about why we hunt or are we talking about the logic contridictions Elmo pointed out? Hunters often are programed to respond to the question: "why do you hunt"? with a defensive answer.

Here is my answer to the question "Why do you hunt"

I love it when a good plan comes together!!! The birds I hunt constantly change their patterns and behaviors and I must constantly adapt my strategy to meet those changes as well as the changes in weather and water conditions. Even when the plan fails it is exciting because the hurdles have been raised... The hunting season is the most intense with the need to constantly in-season scout and remain mobile. But I am emersed in it year-round. In the summer I am messing with my equipment, training my retriever, practicing with my duck calls and my shotgun. I enjoy the preparation almost as much as the hunt. When I am succesful there is a sense of satisfaction from putting my own food on the table. To me hunting is the ultimate combination of mental and physical stimulation.

[nyantler]

I think there are a pretty good sized percentage of the hunters that are like the guys you are describing. I'm not sure how things are where you hunt, but in our area, you can see it in the parking lots that thin out early on opening day, and never do fill up again for the rest of the season like they used to a few decades ago. The number of hunters that you see in the woods drop off to near nothing after the opening weekend. Even thanksgiving day is only a shadow of what it used to be a bunch of years back. All that tells me that the bulk of the hunters are half-day hunters or at best they are 1 or 2 day hunters. I have heard it from a lot of people .... "Oh yeah, I do a little hunting". I'm thinking that if you were to remove the casual hunters from our ranks, we wouldn't have enough numbers for anyone to pay attention to. I further believe that these are the guys that will be deserting the sport in the next decade or so.

We sit here thinking that our fanatical views on hunting and how it fits into our lives is the way most hunters think. I think that's not true. So, when thinking about this question of "why do we hunt", I can't help but wonder why these "casual" hunters hunt. I also wonder just how long they will continue to hunt.

I think in the case of the fellas at our camp.. they like being part of the gang and this was their way of being able to get some time to hang with the guys. I think the beer is more attractive to them than the deer..lol

[mike rossi]

The casual hunters contribute to the conservation fund and wildlife restoration fund, yet only hunt a few hours a season, so I wouldnt say its a bad thing. However just because we all do not have the same level of dedication does not mean casual hunters do not have the responsibility to maintain the same level of safety, ethics, compliance to the law, and public image of hunting. Good thing most of them do and sometimes its the more active hunters that stir things up...

[shawnhu]

Didn't read through the entire thread, but to put it in a nutshell, hunting for most hunters is selfishness. This one hunts for trophy, that one hunts for meat, and the other hunts for fun. It's very rate that a hunter thinks about their true moral role as a hunter in the grand scheme of things.

I too hunt pests to control a balance and allow native species to return. I hunt predators to protect assets and human life. I hunt deer to eat and reduce car collisions. These are all reasons to ensure that the human race continues to thrive as well as native species.

To each their own.

[Elmo]

As Mike pointed out, the original question to this thread is not why one hunts but the contradictions in the logic.

Contradiction #1. Explaining that we should hunt predators because they're eating all the small game and deer and then turning around and explaining why we should hunt small game and deer because they are over populated.

Mike explained this very well with the fact that predators also kill off native and endangered species.

Contradiction #2. Trying to manage bigger and healthier bucks but yet we tend to kill the bigger healthier bucks which means the weaker bucks are the ones that end up passing down their genes.

[WNYBuckHunter]

By the time a buck gets to the age range that most consider "bigger and healthier", they have passed down the genes for a few years, to multiple does. Part of a good management plan is to take older bucks, thus giving them the time to pass on their genes.