Governor requesting Compromise on Crossbow Bill

[beachpeaz]

The deer issue in NY is the ridiculous amount of Doe btw. Not the bucks. I bet we have a ration of 100 to 1 in some areas. How about making the youth hunt a Doe only early season?? That would both help the overall population and still get youth involved. Nobody I hunt with ever shoots doe. You get bucks breading old doe and sometimes they don't even product fawns. That isn't healthy.

[Doewhacker]

Actually I beleive 96% of doe are breed during the rut. Thats damn good if you ask me and the ratio is said to be close to 1-2 buck to doe, accourding to the DEC of course. I would be more than happy to come shoot doe's for you.

I was off a bit on my numbers, here is a cut and paste...

"Statewide pre-season adult sex ratios average

about 1.6 adult doe per adult buck; yearling

antler beam diameters indicate deer are in

good physical condition; and more than 94%

of adult female deer are being bred with more

than 86% of conceptions occurring within a

28-day period centered in mid-November"

Edited September 12, 2012 by Doewhacker

[beachpeaz]

You can't argue statistics right? lol.

DEC is smokin dope. Yeah, 94% of adult doe are being bred, that doesn't mean they are being impregnated. And, even if they are, like humans, complications when you are older is exponential. There is an ideal, healthy breeding age.

Also, 1.6 doe per adult buck is hogwash. There is NO WAY on earth there is a buck for every 2 doe. After the season when they are out in mass to feed (and when they do these counts) I have seen as many as 50 doe in a field with out a single buck. So there is 25 bucks hiding? lol.

LOVE our DEC folks.

[Doewhacker]

That is a state wide number, may be different in your area.

[SteveB]

100 to 1 is impossible. Actually 4 to 1 is close to impossible also.

As many as 1/3 of those "doe" you see after season could be button bucks who will be 1.5 yo for the next rut.

And by season's end, the remaining bucks aren't running around in open fields to pose and get shot at one last time - they have gone nocturnal or to ground.

If you truly think that there are 50 does with no bucks and want to kill all the does, where are the future bucks going to come from?

[SteveB]

Given the fact that 95% of all NY hunters hunt opening weekend and then thats it,

Please post the factual data proving this.

I would guess the % is high, but no where near 95.

[BizCT]

You can't argue statistics right? lol.

DEC is smokin dope. Yeah, 94% of adult doe are being bred, that doesn't mean they are being impregnated. And, even if they are, like humans, complications when you are older is exponential. There is an ideal, healthy breeding age.

Also, 1.6 doe per adult buck is hogwash. There is NO WAY on earth there is a buck for every 2 doe. After the season when they are out in mass to feed (and when they do these counts) I have seen as many as 50 doe in a field with out a single buck. So there is 25 bucks hiding? lol.

LOVE our DEC folks.

100 to 1? seems unrealistic.

I hunt in Putnam County (3N). I dont see many deer, but I would say the buck to doe ration where I hunt is very close to 1:1 and thats with me and my Dad taking 30+ bucks combined in the last 25 years and 0 does combined. The most amount of does I ever seen together without a buck, where we hunt is 7 and that was like 10 years ago.

[phade]

Well give me a few years and I'll train a few more guys on bow herd management, lol, I bet we can get that number up to 25-30%

85% is 85%....85% on the first two days of 23 days is the equivalent of 85% on the first two days of 9 days.

Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, all have shorter gun seasons. Your argument is moot because NY has one of the longer gun seasons in the country. Wisconsin is probably the best example...they have a SHORT season and still shoot a significant number of deer. They have a huge herd number and a huge hunter base. Its about as apple to apple as can be...yet Wisconsin has significantly better deer quality.

D&DH had an article a few years back showing that cutting the number of gun days did not impact the harvest numbers over the long-term.

Edited September 12, 2012 by phade

[SteveB]

If cutting them doesn't impact it, then why do it?

[Doewhacker]

85% is 85%....85% on the first two days of 23 days is the equivalent of 85% on the first two days of 9 days.

Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, all have shorter gun seasons. Your argument is moot because NY has one of the longer gun seasons in the country. Wisconsin is probably the best example...they have a SHORT season and still shoot a significant number of deer. They have a huge herd number and a huge hunter base. Its about as apple to apple as can be...yet Wisconsin has significantly better deer quality.

D&DH had an article a few years back showing that cutting the number of gun days did not impact the harvest numbers over the long-term.

I'm not argueing I was just curious as to how they control the population in such a situation.

[phade]

If cutting them doesn't impact it, then why do it?

Better quality hunting. Also moving the gun season out the rut helps huge. Heck, I'd be tickled pink if the gun season started the Monday after T-day and ran for 23 days.

Edited September 12, 2012 by phade

[SteveB]

G

Better quality hunting.

Guess I am not seeing something.

If it has no effect, how is it going to to give better quality hunting?

If the same number of deer are being killed, what does it matter if it is 9 days or 23 days?

[Doewhacker]

Better quality hunting. Also moving the gun season out the rut helps huge. Heck, I'd be tickled pink if the gun season started the Monday after T-day and ran for 23 days.

I think I would be fine with that, but what would all of the die hard gunner's say?

[phade]

Gun 228,629

MZ 7,126

Bow September 15 - November 15, 2012 and November 17 - January 6, 2013

Gun November 17 - November 25, 2012

Muzzleloader November 26 - December 5, 2012

Wisconsin hunters shot 235k deer in much less time. I think the total of all harvests was around 350k give or take a few k.

Edited September 12, 2012 by phade

[steve863]

Better quality hunting. Also moving the gun season out the rut helps huge. Heck, I'd be tickled pink if the gun season started the Monday after T-day and ran for 23 days.

All the DEC cares about is controlling the deer population and creating some revenue thru hunting. I don't think they care too much about the quality of hunting or what type of bucks are getting killed. Once in a while they throw out a bone just to make some people happy, like they did to the cry babies that wanted AR's, but that's pretty much it. They want a certain amount of deer dead, and that is all that is important in the end. They could care less if it takes 4 weeks or 9 days, or whether it's during the rut or after or while the deer are actually mating.

[phade]

G

Guess I am not seeing something.

If it has no effect, how is it going to to give better quality hunting?

If the same number of deer are being killed, what does it matter if it is 9 days or 23 days?

The effect is on harvest numbers. Less hunting pressure on deer imo is something anecdotal that instantly comes to mind. Quality vs. Quantity. I haven't dug it up, but I bet the % of buck classes in Wisconsin is higher than here in NY.

[phade]

All the DEC cares about is controlling the deer population and creating some revenue thru hunting. I don't think they care too much about the quality of hunting or what type of bucks are getting killed. Once in a while they throw out a bone just to make some people happy, like they did to the cry babies that wanted AR's, but that's pretty much it. They want a certain amount of deer dead, and that is all that is important in the end. They could care less if it takes 4 weeks or 9 days, or whether it's during the rut or after or while the deer are actually mating.

True, but they are changing slowly...they've documented that there is a desire from sportsmen to improve the quality of hunting....even though they disagree on it (as do I), they allowed AR to go through to improve the quality (whether that's perceived or factual is not the point)...but they did it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Phade. I know where you hunt. how can you be whining about the quality of our hunting. I don't see a need to modify things if the results don't chnage. Change in Who's mind? Bow hunters. Here is a reality check for you guys....bow hunters are a MINORITY. geesh...you sound like all the other wlefare groups wanting it all changed to benefit the minority.

[phade]

Phade. I know where you hunt. how can you be whining about the quality of our hunting. I don't see a need to modify things if the results don't chnage. Change in Who's mind? Bow hunters. Here is a reality check for you guys....bow hunters are a MINORITY. geesh...you sound like all the other wlefare groups wanting it all changed to benefit the minority.

I'm not whining about the quality of our hunting based on where I am located. I don't think you can quote where I've said that - and I think it is lame you throw that accusation out there, personally. I never once mentioned bow hunting in my posts...and referenced "deer quality" several times.

I'm saying the season dates and structure in NY is one of the worst in the country for quality whitetail hunting. Yes, here in wNY we have great soil and decent deer hunting. But, it could be much better if seasons were better composed.

And, as I noted, I am an avid gun hunter. I own two bows. I own 20 firearms and MZ. So, personally, I find it childish you want to paint with a wide brush and say that it's bowhunters whining. It's not...I'm looking at things as a whole for the overall quality. Face the facts, where I hunt is decent, but it pales into comparison with other states with similar soil, genetics, hunting pressure, and herd numbers. You simply CANNOT deny that. One area that NY differs in from most if not all of those states is season length and structure across the board...

Shoot, just look at the P/Y or B/C heat maps showing entries...just use wNY and compare it to IL or Ohio or Wisconsin (these generally have the same subspecies of whitetails we have)...yet outside of the suburban fringe, we pale in entries on the same level.

Edited September 12, 2012 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I'm saying the season dates and structure in NY is one of the worst in the country for quality whitetail hunting. Yes, here in wNY we have great soil and decent deer hunting. But, it could be much better if seasons were better composed.

And, as I noted, I am an avid gun hunter. I own two bows. I own 20 firearms and MZ. So, personally, I find it childish you want to paint with a wide brush and say that it's bowhunters whining. It's not...I'm looking at things as a whole for the overall quality. Face the facts, where I hunt is decent, but it pales into comparison with other states with similar soil, genetics, hunting pressure, and herd numbers. You simply CANNOT deny that. One area that NY differs in from most if not all of those states is season length and structure across the board...

Shoot, just look at the P/Y or B/C heat maps showing entries...just use wNY and compare it to IL or Ohio or Wisconsin (these generally have the same subspecies of whitetails we have)...yet outside of the suburban fringe, we pale in entries on the same level.

Our hunting quality sucks as defined by the amount and size of our antler record . book entries. the whole season structure should be redone to facilitate rut hunting for bow and removed fro gun. Your right. I apologize. I don't know how I could have made such walid unfounded assertions about you.

[phade]

Our hunting quality sucks as defined by the amount and size of our antler record . book entries. the whole season structure should be redone to facilitate rut hunting for bow and removed fro gun. Your right. I apologize. I don't know how I could have made such walid unfounded assertions about you.

Culver, you are off base here. I never once mentioned bow season, yet you keep making assumptions based on something I never said.

I still stick by statements. A restructured and shorter gun season in my opinion will result in better hunting for gun hunters and all hunters. Along with going to OBR.

Edited September 12, 2012 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I guess our definition of "better' is the real issue.

[Doc]

Doc, I don't see it that way.

I see elitist bowhunters looking down their nose at gun hunters and kid's pontificating as to why there should be no youth season, no crossbows and even a shorter gun season.

I do have a bow license but I choose not to bow hunt but rather save my limited time off to gun hunt. I am also a avid turkey hunter and as of late have gotten the bear itch.

I don't think you guys know how you come off. But on this site and many of the other gun/hunting boards you have come off with an elitist attitude that only bowhunters are real hunters and you should get more time in the woods and unlimited tags.

All the time using compound bows, range finders, trigger release, climbing stands, sent cover, camo, illuminated sights, even scopes while claiming it is a primitive hunt.

You must be kidding me!

Doc, I agree it is tiresome. I hear all of this crap all the time and it is very tiresome. I just have a different prespective.

Enjoy your time in the woods.

Mike.

Mike, I hate to burst your narrow view of the bowhunting world, but you would be surprised how many bowhunters are also gun hunters. We are hardly looking down our noses at ourselves. .... lol. Also, if you are not a fan of people expressing their opinions, I would suggest that hanging out on an internet forum may not be the happiest use of your time. I also think that you suffer from a run-away imagination if you are hearing "an elitist attitude that only bowhunters are real hunters that should get more time in the woods and unlimited tags". Where do you people get these things? Look, you just don't like bowhunters, you don't have to make things up about that. That attitude has been around ever since the first bowseason and occasionally along comes a few that seem to have that same affliction.

[mike103]

Mike, I hate to burst your narrow view of the bowhunting world, but you would be surprised how many bowhunters are also gun hunters. We are hardly looking down our noses at ourselves. .... lol. Also, if you are not a fan of people expressing their opinions, I would suggest that hanging out on an internet forum may not be the happiest use of your time. I also think that you suffer from a run-away imagination if you are hearing "an elitist attitude that only bowhunters are real hunters that should get more time in the woods and unlimited tags". Where do you people get these things? Look, you just don't like bowhunters, you don't have to make things up about that. That attitude has been around ever since the first bowseason and occasionally along comes a few that seem to have that same affliction.

Doc, I have been hanging around internet forums for many years and I am a mod on several gun/hunting boards so I have no problem with you having a different opinion. It seems to me that you are the one with a problem with people having a different opinion.

And I have been hunting 40+ years so I know a few bowhunters.

I wished you luck once already, I will again, Mike.

[SteveB]

Phade - you posted

DH had an article a few years back showing that cutting the number of gun days did not impact the harvest numbers over the long-term

Not trying to argue, but still can't see how a shorter season would change the quality of the deer when the same number of deer are killed whether it be 9 days or 23? Help me.