solution to antler restrictions

[gipper]

Here is my solution to ANTLER RESTRICTION FOR cny. How come the DEC doesn't Pick one area of state land in each county and dedicate it to antler restriction. Therfore, If you are against the idea you can choose to hunt another public area that has know restrictions. I am for antler restriction and here in CNY I have no option to hunt public land that has any AR. Considering I am in the majority as polls have indiacated I am interested in hearing what others think about this idea.

[rock]

id like to see something like this pa border is close here and i hunt an aera that is about 100yrds from the border and i have seen some nice ones the last couple years

[MountainHunter]

This has nothing to do with what is desired by the majority of sportsman. It has to do with whiners and gutless beurocrats. Some would never shoot a buck if it wasn't a year and a half old. They may have to cover some ground or come by some hunting skill.

[SteveB]

Considering I am in the majority as polls have indiacated I am interested in hearing what others think about this idea.

If these polls are true, who is shooting the 1.5 bucks??

A pro AR by width group did a study that show nearly 60% of the bucks in 7j,h,and f where 6 pts or better. Points based AR would simply target these and nearly all 2.5 meaning no change in 3.5 or in 4.5 or older truly mature deer.

[SteveB]

This has nothing to do with what is desired by the majority of sportsman. It has to do with whiners and gutless beurocrats. Some would never shoot a buck if it wasn't a year and a half old. They may have to cover some ground or come by some hunting skill.

Scot - I take it you let all immature bucks walk then?

[Doc]

Here is my solution to ANTLER RESTRICTION FOR cny. How come the DEC doesn't Pick one area of state land in each county and dedicate it to antler restriction.

Of all the places where AR would pose the greatest amount of frustration, state land would be the ultimate. Look, state land is already pretty darned tough to hunt without throwing additional restrictions on the backs of those that hunt there.

Not only that, but how would that stop all the whining. Most of those that are for AR are private landowners who want to force their neighbors to abide by their AR standards.

Also, consider the enforcement implications of having these little spots in every county that has a different antler criteria. Do you suppose that the next governor is going to throw in some extra money to bolster the enforcement branch of the DEC that they have decimated?

[MountainHunter]

I am responding by iPhone and it is tough with a small screen.

[MountainHunter]

This has nothing to do with what is desired by the majority of sportsman. It has to do with whiners and gutless beurocrats. Some would never shoot a buck if it wasn't a year and a half old. They may have to cover some ground or come by some hunting skill.

Scot - I take it you let all immature bucks walk then?

Is this a define mature trap? I don't shoot 1 1/2 year old bucks. Every year of age a buck puts on the proportionately more difficult they become to kill,and the much more likely they are to advance to the next year. I have seen the positive difference that AR'S have made. I am getting bucks on trail camera's that are 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 years old. Prior to AR'S that would never have been the case.

[TheHunter]

Here is my solution to ANTLER RESTRICTION FOR cny. How come the DEC doesn't Pick one area of state land in each county and dedicate it to antler restriction. Therfore, If you are against the idea you can choose to hunt another public area that has know restrictions. I am for antler restriction and here in CNY I have no option to hunt public land that has any AR. Considering I am in the majority as polls have indiacated I am interested in hearing what others think about this idea.

Cliff it won't work, Anti AR people want to shoot everything, they have no regard for QDM, aging, and maturing deer.  It's a shame...  OMG a 17 year old wont havest a deer! The horror!!!  Took me 3 years to get my first buck, and I'm still hunting 20 years later.

[wztirem]

The majority of AR proponents are clueless when it comes to aging deer!

[Fairgame]

Your the expert.

[MountainHunter]

The majority of AR proponents are clueless when it comes to aging deer!

I am not looking to insult you but that is an ignorant statement. A selective hunter likely gets to look over many more bucks than the if it has three inches of calcium it's getting shot hunter.

[Larry]

Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

  What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s

[Larry]

If you want to see bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and keep the buck to doe ratio at about 3 or 4 doe’s to every buck and you don’t have to let every small buck walk  just most of them. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple. And you don’t need AR’s. One more thing remember Bio. 101 a over abundance of males is detrimental to specie survival .

[gipper]

Thanks for everones input on this topic. We have to keep in mind that we are all on the same team and all I am asking for is to have a place to hunt where about half of the yearling bucks will live to see another year. I do pass up smaller bucks every year on public land. I usually get a 2.5 or bigger buck about every other year. My trail camera sure supports that there are bug bucks out there at a higher rate than 20 years ago. I do beleive that the DEC issues way to many doe permits and that has a detrimental impact on the number of deer that are out there. I can remember when I first started hunting in the 80's you neede 2 or 3 people on a permit. Now thats not the case and I can shoot up to 4 does a year with all my tags. I don't understand the logic. But I can definitely see the difference in the deer population decline  over the years. I know that coyotes are having an impact and the dec has to take that into account, but they don't.

Happy hunting this year

[MountainHunter]

Best of luck to you Cliff! Between the poor distribution of deer management permits the bears and the coyotes,many deer herds are getting pounded.

[Doewhacker]

You ar guys sure are something, 1.5 isn't a trophy but 2.5 is something to flip over? Go ahead and try to take the high road, you are still shooting scrubs!

[MountainHunter]

I will indulge your insult this one time. It is area specific,if a 2.5 year old buck represents 15% of the bucks taken,that is a big incramental step. You don't get from starting a program to having 51/2 year old bucks over night. It takes time and a cultural shift.

[TheHunter]

You ar guys sure are something, 1.5 isn't a trophy but 2.5 is something to flip over? Go ahead and try to take the high road, you are still shooting scrubs!

Thats a great comment.  If thats your feeling then why in the world would you be against AR allowing the majority of 1.5's to survive if they are just "scrubs".  Allowing a 1.5 to become a 2.5 results in a more mature deer, and some of those 2.5's will be 3.5's and so on. 

[Doewhacker]

woo whooo a spindly horned 8 point that weighs 124 pounds!!!! hahaha

I have said before, AR's are a fine voluntary program.

[Larry]

???  So what you are saying it’s ok to shoot 1.5 year olds as long as they are not what you call scrubs. So you shoot the 1.5 year olds with the best potential and let the” scrubs” walk. With limited chances for a DMP I’m sure most guys will let that 6pt or basket 8 walk. Sounds like a good management plan to me.

[biggamefish]

  I think what he is saying big deer are fine and if someone wants to wait and let deer pass but he doesn't want ar to determine what he can shoot.  Big deer are great to see but shooting a huge deer isn't what deer hunting is about it is about being out in the woods and enjoying comrodery between hunting partners.  I think to many people just want to walk out see a big deer shoot it then have the bragging right.  Not do your homework all year and put in some time.  Many people have said it before antlers taste like crap.

[Doc]

There is no doubt about it ..... the search for big antlers is an "ego thing". And by the way, that's what antler scoring is all about. That is the yardstick which determines the level of bragging rights for many. That is also what is behind a lot of AR demands. Many hunters use antler size to determine their level of success and they see it as the only reason for hunting. Other hunters have other reasons and rewards for their hunting.

Let's face it, we all have different demands that have to be met by our hunting activities. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It just makes us all different in terms of what deer hunting needs to supply us. That's probably something that should be kept in mind whenever we get the urge to push our standards onto others. We are not all going to agree on goals, so the system needs to be kept as open as possible to maximize hunter satisfaction as best as possible.

Doc

[MountainHunter]

There is no doubt about it ..... the search for big antlers is an "ego thing". And by the way, that's what antler scoring is all about. That is the yardstick which determines the level of bragging rights for many. That is also what is behind a lot of AR demands. Many hunters use antler size to determine their level of success and they see it as the only reason for hunting. Other hunters have other reasons and rewards for their hunting.

Let's face it, we all have different demands that have to be met by our hunting activities. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong. It just makes us all different in terms of what deer hunting needs to supply us. That's probably something that should be kept in mind whenever we get the urge to push our standards onto others. We are not all going to agree on goals, so the system needs to be kept as open as possible to maximize hunter satisfaction as best as possible.

Doc

65% or so of the people polled wanted AR's that is indicative of a significant majority of hunters wanting it. Then the mysterious super majority was created to defeat it. (political BS) What is lacking here is the idea of patience,most supposedly ego driven hunters would go a number of years with out shooting a buck if it meant that the over all quality of hunting would improve.

I likely see more bucks each year than most hunters yet there are many years that I choose not to shoot a buck. I don't know how many bucks were able to age another year or to be shot by another hunter as a result of the approach I take to hunting. So who is more selfish the hunter who goes about it in a similar manner to me or the hunter who blasts the first spike horn they see,who has done more for the deer herd and the hunting community at large?

I know the answer no need to answer this.

[Doewhacker]

scot I can see you don't get it, it does not matter if the deer is killed at 1.5 or 5.5, it only matters that the deer is killed. And what exactly do you think you are doing for the hunting community by not shooting a deer? Our jobs as hunters is to kill deer, if we don't do our jobs the DEC already has a list of things to control the deer herd at the ready, its all been studied and documented. Not that I think we are any where near having to worry about that but the point is the DEC needs us to kill deer not name them.

DEC biologist have posted on their web site that there is no biological advantage to AR's, it is merely a social issue, you want to shoot a "big" buck, alot of others don't care about the rack and relish the time spent afeild and any deer taken is a trophy. Determining what deer to take should remain personal choice.. you know land of the free.