The Nuge

[steve863]

Is he the guy preaching family values who had a son with another woman while married to his current wife - and refused to support him until court ordered?

Geeze, even steve863 got past the Ted bashing and talked about the message in this one. 

Is he starting to Mellow ?

I can start bashing him if you guys miss it so much?   Honestly, I never have bashed the guy for his personal indiscretions.  I only bash him about things that pertain to hunting and how it looks to the average guy on the street.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Geeze, even steve863 got past the Ted bashing and talked about the message in this one. 

From what was shown in that clip, there really wasn't much of a message other than (strictly in the context of that clip) Nugent doesn't believe in applying ethics to hunting. I strongly disagree with that attitude, and if that was what he really wanted to say, That may encourage me to start bashing him too.....lol. However, I didn't get to see the rest of the program so I have no way of judging whether somebody just lifted a piece of a damaging rant with the intent of leaving a negative impression. Ha-ha ..... they do that in ploitics all the time.

Doc

You have to see the entire show, as this segment could easily be taken out of context.

[Doc]

Yes, that is why I mentioned that possibility. My question is, how was this clip put together and by who? Nugent already has a horrible image problem without somebody constructing an out-of-context clip like this that leaves the impression that he is against ethics in hunting. If those remarks are indeed out of context, then somebody has put together a real hatchet job on him.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Who knows who put it together, its just a few excerpts from the show. Im surprised its still up on Youtube, since its copyrighted material.

I just went to the actual link on YouTube. Its basically a teaser for the episode put out by D&DH to get people to want to watch it.

[fasteddie]

I think it will be shown again at 10 am on October 1st  (this Friday)

[Doc]

I think it will be shown again at 10 am on October 1st  (this Friday)

Is that on the Outdoor Channel? I might try to catch it if I can.

[Doc]

Who knows who put it together, its just a few excerpts from the show. Im surprised its still up on Youtube, since its copyrighted material.

I just went to the actual link on YouTube. Its basically a teaser for the episode put out by D&DH to get people to want to watch it.

Well, for those that never get to see the program but only get to see the clip ....... They certainly are going to be left with a pretty negative view of Nugent. Not that the guy doesn't have enough of that already .... lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you are basing your opinion on something from a sound byte or clip that small, then I wouldnt really care what your opinion was lol.

BTW, I am not talking about you in case it came off wrong.

[fasteddie]

It will be on Versus Channel Friday at 10 am .........

[Doc]

If you are basing your opinion on something from a sound byte or clip that small, then I wouldnt really care what your opinion was lol.

BTW, I am not talking about you in case it came off wrong.

Basically, I am trying to figure out how anything further he could say would ever extricate that huge foot that he stuck in his mouth. To me the clarity of the message behind that "sound-byte", as you called it, is something that I think was intended to form a definite opinion of the guy. I didn't see any ambiguity, and unless there some real magic in the rest of the program, I think he was painting a very clear picture of exactly what he meant. To me the words define the attitude. That's why I am interested in seeing the whole program just to find out what he could possibly say that would justify the obvious problem that he seems to be having with ethics in hunting.

Needless to say, I will never get a chance to meet and get to know this guy, and can only judge his character by what he says. Such is the way with public figures. That's why it is wise for them to choose their words carefully because most assuredly they will be judged by the words they say, and rightfully so.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

That clip was meant to do nothing other than draw interest in the episode and get people to watch. Thats what a teaser is for. I highly doubt D&DH is looking to make an enemy in Ted Nugent.

Like I said, if you are going to base your opinion upon a 1 minute clip from a 20ish minute show about a subject, then I dont see how your opinion could possibly be an educated one. I do see it as a trend in alot of people to jump to conclusions quickly without all of the information on a given subject. Just look at the news media, they thrive by delivering bits of the story over a drawn out amount of time and many people are gullible enough to get drawn in.

Oh, and I dont care who made the statement he is making in that clip, when you put it in the correct context, I completely agree with it. Everyone is just constantly trying to push their "ethics" (aka opinion) on everyone else in the hunting world. The way I see it, if its legal, theres no problem with someone doing it. You only become unethical when you are breaking the law. That is what he is saying.

[Doc]

That clip was meant to do nothing other than draw interest in the episode and get people to watch. Thats what a teaser is for. I highly doubt D&DH is looking to make an enemy in Ted Nugent.

Like I said, if you are going to base your opinion upon a 1 minute clip from a 20ish minute show about a subject, then I dont see how your opinion could possibly be an educated one. I do see it as a trend in alot of people to jump to conclusions quickly without all of the information on a given subject. Just look at the news media, they thrive by delivering bits of the story over a drawn out amount of time and many people are gullible enough to get drawn in.

Oh, and I dont care who made the statement he is making in that clip, when you put it in the correct context, I completely agree with it. Everyone is just constantly trying to push their "ethics" (aka opinion) on everyone else in the hunting world. The way I see it, if its legal, theres no problem with someone doing it. You only become unethical when you are breaking the law. That is what he is saying.

Lol.... and I guess he should know about that particular aspect of ethics.

Seriously however, since you have brought up the topic, to me there is a certain amount of mental laziness in people who let a bunch of politicians decide what is right and what is wrong about how we conduct our hunting or our lives for that matter. Yes, the law is the arbitor as to whether we have done something punishible and it is a mandated code that we are forced to abide by which kind of keeps some sort of order in our world. However, if that is the only requirement that one has to determine how they judge or evaluate things in their lives, then there is something seriously lacking in the thinking and evaluation process. I find it difficult to believe that you agree with every law. I find it difficult to believe that you don't think there are omissions in the laws. If so, be careful ..... your ethics are showing.....lol. I could be wrong, but I suspect that you actually do have some judgemental and evaluation process that extends beyond the law that you might even call ethics. And guess what ...... there really is nothing wrong with that. And, as a matter of fact it is those kinds of personal evaluations that often created those laws. It's not the other way around.

By the way, as you are aware, I have been very careful in each reply to qualify my comments as to the possibility that those comments may have been lifted out of context (From what you are saying, it doesn't sound like that is the case). So I am responding to the ranting in the clip that I saw, and now the explanation that you have supplied which sounds like perhaps it was not taken out of context. So it's amazing just how much you can tell from a 1 minute clip. Hopefully, I will be able to catch the program and get a first hand view of what Mr. Nugent's views really are on hunting ethics. I'm sure that 19 minutes will give me a completely educated opinion ......  :

Doc

[gundeck]

Well said, Doc.  When we start codifying all morals into law, we start straying far from the Constitution.  When the moral transgression directly impacts your neighbor, that is one thing.  When it merely offends your beliefs, that is clearly another.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wow. Ok , let me explain it to you another way. If you disagree with the law, or wish for a change to be made, then go through the channels to help those changes be made. No need for politicians to decide everything, remember, they work for US, not the other way around. And I never said laws were the same as ethics, ethics are nothing more than your opinion based on how you were raised and what the rules in your area are. For example baiting isnt allowed in NY, so most people here have the opinion that it isnt right to do, in other words, that it isnt ethical. People in Texas were brought up being able to hunt over bait, and they see nothing wrong with it, or that it is ethical. I have only said one thing that I feel is ethical or not in this discussion, following the game laws is ethical and breaking the game laws is not. There may be practices that are within the law that I choose not to participate in, but I am not going to say someone is unethical for doing it. Im just not that judgemental. 

[Doc]

Wow. Ok , let me explain it to you another way. If you disagree with the law, or wish for a change to be made, then go through the channels to help those changes be made. No need for politicians to decide everything, remember, they work for US, not the other way around.

The very first step in that process is the discussion phase where the initiator explains to the rest of the world why a law or condition should be changed. In other words, the initiator speaks his mind about what he feels is right or wrong with a situation or practice. And that part of the process appears to be what Ted and apparently yourself disagree with. Somehow, expressing a belief that something is simply wrong is viewed as a bad thing. Every disagreement between hunters is viewed as an attack on hunting. I maintain that discussion of right and wrong is what in the long run strengthens hunting, and thoughts on right and wrong is what ethics are all about.

And I never said laws were the same as ethics, ethics are nothing more than your opinion based on how you were raised and what the rules in your area are.

When Ted says, "You only become unethical when you are breaking the law", that sure sounds like a direct tie between laws and ethics and it sure sounds like it is the legal system that defines his ethics for him (of course we know better ....lol). How else would you interpret that statement? And since you featured this quote in your reply, I am guessing that it was a point that you were in agreement with. In reality, to most folks, there are other things that might be defined as ethical concerns other than breaking laws.

There may be practices that are within the law that I choose not to participate in, but I am not going to say someone is unethical for doing it. Im just not that judgemental. 

It doesn't always just boil down to whether or not you participate in a practice. Are there no activities that you don't participate in because you simply think they are wrong? Don't you ever explain to others why you don't participate? Don't you occasionally feel a strong enough conviction in that belief that you feel the need to speak out? That is an act of expressing an ethical concern. That may be the difference between us. When I feel that something is wrong, I don't just simply "not participate". I generally feel quite free to speak up and express that feeling. Yes, that is a trait of being judgemental. That's a trait that maybe this world could use a bit more of these days.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wow. Ok , let me explain it to you another way. If you disagree with the law, or wish for a change to be made, then go through the channels to help those changes be made. No need for politicians to decide everything, remember, they work for US, not the other way around.

The very first step in that process is the discussion phase where the initiator explains to the rest of the world why a law or condition should be changed. In other words, the initiator speaks his mind about what he feels is right or wrong with a situation or practice. And that part of the process appears to be what Ted and apparently yourself disagree with. Somehow, expressing a belief that something is simply wrong is viewed as a bad thing. Every disagreement between hunters is viewed as an attack on hunting. I maintain that discussion of right and wrong is what in the long run strengthens hunting, and thoughts on right and wrong is what ethics are all about.

And I never said laws were the same as ethics, ethics are nothing more than your opinion based on how you were raised and what the rules in your area are.

When Ted says, "You only become unethical when you are breaking the law", that sure sounds like a direct tie between laws and ethics and it sure sounds like it is the legal system that defines his ethics for him (of course we know better ....lol). How else would you interpret that statement? And since you featured this quote in your reply, I am guessing that it was a point that you were in agreement with. In reality, to most folks, there are other things that might be defined as ethical concerns other than breaking laws.

There may be practices that are within the law that I choose not to participate in, but I am not going to say someone is unethical for doing it. Im just not that judgemental. 

It doesn't always just boil down to whether or not you participate in a practice. Are there no activities that you don't participate in because you simply think they are wrong? Don't you ever explain to others why you don't participate? Don't you occasionally feel a strong enough conviction in that belief that you feel the need to speak out? That is an act of expressing an ethical concern. That may be the difference between us. When I feel that something is wrong, I don't just simply "not participate". I generally feel quite free to speak up and express that feeling. Yes, that is a trait of being judgemental. That's a trait that maybe this world could use a bit more of these days.

Wow, you just dont seem to get it, even though I spelled it all out for you. Rather than try to fix your quoting, Ill just respond in order...

1 - Nobody is saying that opinions (ethics) shouldnt be discussed. Discussion IS the first step of the process that I mentioned. Youre just making assumptions and preaching to the choir at the same time.

2 - Ted is still right, the only time you become unethical is when you break the law. If you cant understand what that means, then I cant explain it to you. Ive already tried.

3 - Good for you Doc, youre judgmental AND are showing a serious case of lack of reading comprehension. Niether of those things are what I would take pride in, but to each his own. I said I dont call people unethical for following the game laws. WTF is the problem with that? I never said I wouldnt disagree with an aspect of hunting I dont agree with in a conversation, I just wont point my finger at someone and call them unethical if they arent breaking a law.

Now stop cherry picking and address the subject as a whole. Oh wait, the original clip is nothing other than cherry picking and taking things out of context. im starting to notice a pattern here.  :

[Doc]

Wow, you just dont seem to get it, even though I spelled it all out for you. Rather than try to fix your quoting, Ill just respond in order...

1 - Nobody is saying that opinions (ethics) shouldnt be discussed. Discussion IS the first step of the process that I mentioned. Youre just making assumptions and preaching to the choir at the same time.

2 - Ted is still right, the only time you become unethical is when you break the law. If you cant understand what that means, then I cant explain it to you. Ive already tried.

3 - Good for you Doc, youre judgmental AND are showing a serious case of lack of reading comprehension. Niether of those things are what I would take pride in, but to each his own. I said I dont call people unethical for following the game laws. WTF is the problem with that? I never said I wouldnt disagree with an aspect of hunting I dont agree with in a conversation, I just wont point my finger at someone and call them unethical if they arent breaking a law.

Now stop cherry picking and address the subject as a whole. Oh wait, the original clip is nothing other than cherry picking and taking things out of context. im starting to notice a pattern here.  :

First of all, thank you for not fixing something that wasn't broken. I formatted my reply the way I did because I wanted to.

Next, I want to suggest that you look up the definition of ethics so that in the future you can use the term correctly. There is nothing in that definition that regards "opinion", and there is nothing that regards laws or the legal system in any way. So your quote from Ted (and your additional comments) are dead wrong when you continue to try to link ethics with the law.

Also I'm sorry to hear that you think that using judgement is some kind of bad thing, but I think that you really are a bit more judgemental than you are letting on (at least I hope so). Unfortunately some people have taken a perfectly good word and assigned some inappropriate and incorrect negative connotations to it. But once again, look up the actual meaning and you will see that it is not something to be avoided.

Look, I don't always get the meaning of words correct, but sometimes it is useful to understand the meaning of terms that comprise the core of the discussion. It simply helps avoid misunderstanding and false arguments.

Also, I will say that I have a lot more respect for people who will speak up against something they find repugnant without hiding behind legality as the sole crutch and criteria for their code of ethics and refuse to take a stand. Also, there is nothing honorable about sitting silently without speaking out against something that you find personally offensive. If you have any kind of code of ethics and you feel that some practice or attitude crosses over that line, I would hope that you would not just sit there like a lump simply because it has never been turned into law.

Regarding your last paragraph, I have to admit that I have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about. Do you have some other little secret subject going here that I have not addressed yet? I'm trying to respond to this additional 19 minutes of TV program based on the sparce info that you have provided. Until I can actually see those vital 19 minutes, that's all I can do for now. Your brief description of that program along with what I saw in that clip, and also the comments you have added are things I totally disagree with to put it as courteously as I can. I have said so and I have explained why. So what "subject as a whole" are you talking about that I have failed to address? 

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I haven't seen the show but the DVR will be set to pick it up tomorrow morning. I guess I don't have too big of a problem with Ted in that you seem to get FULL ON what he thinks...even if you don't agree with it. He is a little to in your face for my liking but I took this from teh clip and hopefully I can get a better feel after seeing the show. I just hope it isn't like  a movie preview where they show you all the good stuff and when you get there the rest sucks...lol

I took his clip to mean that there is a hype over ethics. That the term is used so much and applied incorrectly so many times it has lost it's meaning. It is used as a wepon to oppose something the person doesn't like or is trying to change. "It isn't ethical" like a magic word and no one dares to disagree. Kind of like "feeling".... "Don't disagree with me or confront me or you will hurt my feelings". If that is the case I agree with it. Can't wait to see it now.

[nyslowhand]

Watched a rerun this morning of that D&DH show.

The clip that was posted on page one here was the intro clip for the show. An attention grabber!

He had many other comments that were interesting, if you took into consideration the source.

Also had a couple of other interesting segments.

One was about values & ethics and basically doing what's best for you in your area.

Other was "Why you can't shoot big bucks" and the theme was impatience.

All in all, 1 1/2 thumbs up.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wow, you just dont seem to get it, even though I spelled it all out for you. Rather than try to fix your quoting, Ill just respond in order...

1 - Nobody is saying that opinions (ethics) shouldnt be discussed. Discussion IS the first step of the process that I mentioned. Youre just making assumptions and preaching to the choir at the same time.

2 - Ted is still right, the only time you become unethical is when you break the law. If you cant understand what that means, then I cant explain it to you. Ive already tried.

3 - Good for you Doc, youre judgmental AND are showing a serious case of lack of reading comprehension. Niether of those things are what I would take pride in, but to each his own. I said I dont call people unethical for following the game laws. WTF is the problem with that? I never said I wouldnt disagree with an aspect of hunting I dont agree with in a conversation, I just wont point my finger at someone and call them unethical if they arent breaking a law.

Now stop cherry picking and address the subject as a whole. Oh wait, the original clip is nothing other than cherry picking and taking things out of context. im starting to notice a pattern here.  :

First of all, thank you for not fixing something that wasn't broken. I formatted my reply the way I did because I wanted to.

Next, I want to suggest that you look up the definition of ethics so that in the future you can use the term correctly. There is nothing in that definition that regards "opinion", and there is nothing that regards laws or the legal system in any way. So your quote from Ted (and your additional comments) are dead wrong when you continue to try to link ethics with the law.

Also I'm sorry to hear that you think that using judgement is some kind of bad thing, but I think that you really are a bit more judgemental than you are letting on (at least I hope so). Unfortunately some people have taken a perfectly good word and assigned some inappropriate and incorrect negative connotations to it. But once again, look up the actual meaning and you will see that it is not something to be avoided.

Look, I don't always get the meaning of words correct, but sometimes it is useful to understand the meaning of terms that comprise the core of the discussion. It simply helps avoid misunderstanding and false arguments.

Also, I will say that I have a lot more respect for people who will speak up against something they find repugnant without hiding behind legality as the sole crutch and criteria for their code of ethics and refuse to take a stand. Also, there is nothing honorable about sitting silently without speaking out against something that you find personally offensive. If you have any kind of code of ethics and you feel that some practice or attitude crosses over that line, I would hope that you would not just sit there like a lump simply because it has never been turned into law.

Regarding your last paragraph, I have to admit that I have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about. Do you have some other little secret subject going here that I have not addressed yet? I'm trying to respond to this additional 19 minutes of TV program based on the sparce info that you have provided. Until I can actually see those vital 19 minutes, that's all I can do for now. Your brief description of that program along with what I saw in that clip, and also the comments you have added are things I totally disagree with to put it as courteously as I can. I have said so and I have explained why. So what "subject as a whole" are you talking about that I have failed to address? 

Doc

You are just simply amazing, spell it out and you just keep trying to twist it into something its not in order to justify your opinion.

First of all.... :

Ethics is a system of moral principals. morals and principals are a matter of opinion, therefore ethics is as well. Ethics also means a branch of philosophy that deals with values in relation to human conduct. Ahhhh, values, which are a matter of OPINION. Good lord man. In my opinion, if you break the law, you are being unethical. I dont understand how you can say my opinion is wrong (its my opinion) or how ethics are not a matter of opinion.

Apparently you still cant or didnt read where I said I would disagree with someone else's opinion on a subject if I didnt agree with it. If you choose to go around and call people "unethical" for doing something completely within the laws, then knock yourself out. You will just be making yourself look like a judgemental jerk, not my problem.

As far as cherry picking goes, you pulled a few sentences out of my post and attacked them out of context (without consideration of the rest of the post). Thats called cherry picking. Youre welcome for the lesson. 

BTW, Im done talking to you about this, its pointless because you clearly dont get it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I took his clip to mean that there is a hype over ethics. That the term is used so much and applied incorrectly so many times it has lost it's meaning. It is used as a wepon to oppose something the person doesn't like or is trying to change. "It isn't ethical" like a magic word and no one dares to disagree. Kind of like "feeling".... "Don't disagree with me or confront me or you will hurt my feelings". If that is the case I agree with it. Can't wait to see it now.

DING DING DING DING! What do we have for him Johnny! 

[nyslowhand]

Ethics, morals and opinions are all standards, guidelines or feelings an individual has which were developed through their background, education and life experiences.

Everyone's differ slightly and some drastically. If we all were the same regarding these feelings & standards - what would we have to talk about?

Problem arises when the use of ethics & morals gets paint brushed over a situation like hunting.

Basically, a few individuals attempt to apply their ethics, opinions & morals to a situation that they want to be applicable for all.

Now you are taking an individual's feelings and thinking that they are good for everyone.

Kinda like some of the discussions we have on this forum? LOL

Ethics and morals have nothing to do with laws or regulations.

Medical ethics are bylaws, but a gross misuse of the word!

Don't take these examples out of context!!!

Mormons think they can be polygamist. Is it legal? Do you agree with them per your ethics or morals?

Certain cultures belittle woman. Do they feel they are right? Is it illegal? Do you think they are ethically or morally right?

What do you think the American Civil War was about - ethics & morals!

The list goes on - getting the idea?

[Doc]

You are just simply amazing, spell it out and you just keep trying to twist it into something its not in order to justify your opinion.

First of all.... :

Ethics is a system of moral principals. morals and principals are a matter of opinion, therefore ethics is as well. Ethics also means a branch of philosophy that deals with values in relation to human conduct. Ahhhh, values, which are a matter of OPINION. Good lord man. In my opinion, if you break the law, you are being unethical. I dont understand how you can say my opinion is wrong (its my opinion) or how ethics are not a matter of opinion.

Apparently you still cant or didnt read where I said I would disagree with someone else's opinion on a subject if I didnt agree with it. If you choose to go around and call people "unethical" for doing something completely within the laws, then knock yourself out. You will just be making yourself look like a judgemental jerk, not my problem.

As far as cherry picking goes, you pulled a few sentences out of my post and attacked them out of context (without consideration of the rest of the post). Thats called cherry picking. Youre welcome for the lesson. 

BTW, Im done talking to you about this, its pointless because you clearly dont get it.

Oh I get it all right.....lol. You finally made the effort to visit a dictionary and actually understand what it is you have been trying to talk about. Good for you. You still insist on putting things into definitions that aren't there (values and ethics are not opinions), but what the heck ...... at least you made the effort.

I'll admit that holding a conversation with you is a bit difficult. It's kind of like trying to hit a moving target (reminds me of that game, Whack-A-Mole ;D  ), so I guess I'll just have to give up on trying to make any sense out of what you are trying to explain about the program and wait until I get a chance to view it for myself, which is probably what I should have done in the first place.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sure Doc, whatever you say.  :

Good to see you still have a few insults in ya.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doc, I have to dis agree with you on this one. Values and morals are opinions.....and all ethics are opinions. All opinions are not ethics, however.

Let me take a shot at this. I for one think there is nothing more tastey than tender meat and make it a practice every year to take one fawn....yes...a fawn. We do whole hind quarters on the grill and this year in the smoker. That is legal and in my opinion ethical since I also have no problem slideing into the butcher shop and ordering up some beautiful veal. I guarantee you there are those here that feel this practice is unethical....why ...because their opinion is that it is not right.

You may be a Boston fan....I like the Yankees....I beleive they are the best team in baseball and I think your opinion that the Sox are the best is wrong. do I think you are unethical...no ...that doesn't fit.

by definition anything that is against the law is unethical because that is the publics general opinion of minimum conduct. Any time we set our own bar at a higher level than the legal minimum we raise our level of ethics...our beleifs...our opinion of what right and wrong is.

Poilitcal hot button here but I personally beleive that abortion is unethical because it goes against my beleifs...it is legal but in my opinion the practice is wrong and taking a life.

So I do believe that ethics are opinions......and that is my opinion but I don't think you are unethical for not agreeing...lol