Hounds/training

[Dom]

Goodmorning I just got a bluetic hound from a family frieind aprox age 3-5 months old.I'm going to want to train her for hunting and not sure where to begin.She is going to be a family dog but would like to take her to the woods,do you think she can be trained to hunt multiple animals,please some one with info help me.

[tmdroc]

I have no experience with this type of dog, but I have been training my Cheasapeake bay retriever for the last year and a half. You need to start working with your dog now. Start with the basics like sit, stay, here, and heal. Do these with rewards (food) for the first few weeks and then change to random rewards until the dog can do them without any rewards. This would be a good start and should be done daily. After this I started having my dog work on retrieving bumpers which I don't think would be applicable to your training. Get a book or find a trainer, but they key is getting them started as early as possible. Hope this helps.

[Paula]

I don't know much about them except they are beautiful dogs, i am jealous!

They are true coon dogs and might know more than you think at this age. Take her out and see what she does, you can train her for other small game other than coons. Read and maybe also work with someone with experience on your breed.

[airedale]

Blueticks are fairly large trail hounds used mostly for Coon hunting and various big game such as Bear and Lion. I have hunted behind a couple of Blueticks that were pretty fair rabbit dogs.

They make great pets but once trained for hunting have a tendency to take an interesting track and follow it to wherever it goes so they should not be allowed to run loose without supervision.

The books "Walk With Wick" 1 and 2 written by John Wick are probably the best books I have read for training this breed. A Google search will put you in touch with a vendor that sell those books.

Good luck with you new dog.

Al

Edited January 20, 2013 by airedale

[greybeard]

Dom. These are my opinions, all from OLD memories as a coonhunter and I am NOT a trainer, and never had a super dog..mine were ok, However, for years I hunted with some REALLY good coon dogs that friends owned..and I mean GOOD !!!. These were the guys that taught me..

The hound that I'm describing below was a great trail dog, a really good cold trailer,It could strike a coon track ,at times, from an open window in a vehicle, but she was weak at the tree so I liked hunting her with a good tree dog.. I had a friend with a good tree dog, but not as good a track dog as mine.. teamwork..

My experience...

Many years ago I had a similar situation, but with a Black and Tan(house/hunting dog). In MY opinion you can train your hound, even if it's a house dog, if she has it in her to hunt.

When I got mine she showed no indication of a desire to hunt and I took her to the woods a lot, until one day I tied a fresh killed squirrel skin on a rope and played with her and that did it... She went wild and after that with some woods time she became a hunting fool , as we used to say. She really came into her own after a coon held her underwater in a bay and chewed her up a bit.. Then it was war. she HATED them and wanted to kill every one she saw, or smelled..(she was an inside dog, and when I brought her home after that fight she was bleeding and shook blood on the wall..My wife was less than pleased and I was in the dog house for a while... Coondogs will get bitten)

I was advised not to use scents in a bottle to train her because it would teach her to trail backwards. . An animal's scent get's stronger as you get closer, a bottled scent is stronger at the start and get's weaker as you drag it.... It made sense to me .

There's quite a bit to training esp. with coon hounds because they run and hunt way out of sight and it's at night and are independent hunters...If you can find local coon hunters, it's the best way to go.. There might be coonhound clubs near you(there was one in Blue Stores, Coumbia County.. not sure if that's close to you, of if they're still around).

Also there was a Black and Tan Association (probably still is), so see if there's a Bluetick Association..

Also Coonhunter magazines. (youtube and internet coon hound sites)

They also have schools where you send your dog to be trained for a price... You'd have to check them out, I knew some guys that did that, but I didn't so I have no first hand knowledge of these schools.

As far as hunting multiple animals..Think this out carefully.. Guys do have them.. cat/bear... squirrel/coon.. ..possom/ coon... etc. and i guess it works for them, and if that's what you're looking to do then know that it is done.

However, IF you want to be a coonhunter, and you don't have a straight cooner, many if not most coon hunters, probably won't want to hunt with your dog because it may pull their dogs from a coon track to go to your hound and what they would consider trash ( like possoms,deer/fox, etc. Imagine, deer are trash !!) ..

Coonhounds, many times, honor another dog so when a dog opens and runs a track, the pack may go to that dog, and if that dog is runnin' trash no one will be too happy).. Remember coon hunters often compete in competions and earn "titles" for their hounds.. "Night Champion",

"Grand Night Champion"..A dog with a "title" can bring more $ for pups that they sell from these hounds.. Also if they want to sell their adult hound and get a good price, they want to advertise "STRAIGHT COONHIOUND".. no trash.. so they want to hunt with other straight coon dogs..

My other one didn't do it, but the one I'm telling you about was a really good pheasant dog(also at times grouse and quail) and actually hunted close to me in the day.. I could never figure that out...BUT you have to be careful because if you don't have a straight cooner, as I reported above, it'll run other game that you don't want. I lost a different hound for almost a week because she ran a fox and disappeared.(again, I was in the doghouse at home).. I got a name/address/phone number tag for their collars after that)

Also you MUST break it from running deer..Deer are a big problem and I had to spend time breaking mine.. I used a shock collar. I did it and then never had a problem.. We lost a beagle(not mine) once for a few days because he chased a deer..

I had a friend who used his hound on turkey, in addition to coons.. I don't remember if it was to locate and break up flocks in the fall, but I guess that was it.. I never asked... (check legality, these were different times).. I wouldn't want my dogs runnin' turkey, or they'd be barking treed at night on roosting birds(My old hound treed pheasants one night that the State must had just stocked,because the 3 were together . So I ran through the woods and briars at night for treed pheasants that I couldn't shoot. Wasted time. It was something different though(not appreciated by some in the group)

I guess these days with so many coyotes you'd have to break your dog from chasing those, unless that's why you got the hound..I NEVER would have wanted my dogs to run coyotes(none down here anyway).. I would have surely lost one, but that, again, are my thoughts.

I have some great memories of that old hound.. I think she could read my mind...Hunting was never the same after she died.. I'm glad you posted because it brought me back to some really fun times. Wait'll you hear the first time it opens with a loud ball on a track, it'll be tattooed in your brain forever.

Watch for ticks, especially if it lives inside.. There were no rabies on L.I. back then so I guess that has to be a thought.. Also think about adding a Flourescent slip on color so cars MIGHT see it...I also trained her to know my whistle(store bought) and although I could never call her off a coon track, it worked pretty good when she was just out there hunting for scent and I wanted her in. "Many" coon dogs will venture out to night hunt and when nothing's doing, at some point in time, come back, and "check in" , but that takes time so I used the whistle too.It was GREAT in the day and she always responded to that whistle when I was in the woods, with her, in the day.

If you're going to night hunt, think about safety issues. At times, I hunted at night alone, and in my opinion "DON"T DO IT"... ALWAYS go with someone.. things can go wrong when hunting ,and at night , if you are alone they can be much worse and your dog "ain't Lassie" and isn't going to bring back help to you.

I hope I gave you SOME help even though the above was from the early 80's,and may be

dated( I know that I'm getting obsolete.).. There's a lot to it, but it's great fun to learn and do..

Good luck.. be safe

[Paula]

Great advice Greybeard, I enjoyed reading it. I have a young beagle and I remember his first noises he made before he barked,will never forget it. plus i have it on video!

[greybeard]

Thank you Paula, that was kind of you to say. I wasn't sure if I was clear, and I am kinda out of touch with some things. I live in my own world a bit, which is jokingly referred to as "Bob's World" to some of my old hunting/fishing friends.

My first hunting dog was a beagle and I'll never forget the first time she opened on a rabbit. As you know, unless someone has been there, and heard the "song of a hound", they can never understand the thrill... I'm glad you got it on video...I wish they had them back then..I have kept logs/journals of most of my hunts since the mid 60's, but videos would be so much better...

Old Man story (we do that)... When I was going with my wife, maybe 17, or 18 years old,on New Year's Eve, I took her to my little woodlot and let my beagle out to show her "a run" and the little hound ran three rabbits. It was at night, with snow on the ground, and visibility was good for night time. My wife doesn't hunt, but she never forgot the run and seeing the cottontails run so close to us... She still talks about it.. That night we listened to Hound Music, instead of a band. !!! Great New Year's Eve date.. I always was romantic...

Good luck with your beagle, they're really great little dogs..

[mike rossi]

At 4 months of age and the intention of making her a family dog, your first step is developmental training which includes socialization AND dominance. Develpomental training also refers to introducing gunfire, water, snow, brush, ect... In the case of other than hounds it would also include boats, decoys, calls, bells, beeper collars. You should be getting any breed use to its truck kennel, electric collar - yes start collar conditioning that pup now, also get both types of bark collars , a shocker and a sprayer. Learn how to properly use the prong collar as well and introduce that as well.

That dog should meet many new people and new dogs before it is 6 or 7 months of age, I mean like several hundred. Guests in your house or close toy your house, ie. 500 feet from your yard, do not count - especially if she has alpha tendencies.

Get her on basic obiendience yesterday and make sure she gets daily exercise. Put her on a premium feed like Purina One. Supplement her diet with chicken basted rawhides (not cheap imports from the dollar store) and Composure Liquid MAX available over the counter through Vetri-Science Laboratories. Do not feed human food and do not free-feed, always control her access to food.

Worry about the field training a little later. If you dont have the time to do all this send me a PM and we will see what we can work out.

[allblue bandit]

ive owned bluetick for overy 25 years ran them on coon/bear/fox/ coyotes its your preference what u want to hunt. is the pup line bred out crossed or back yard hounds. all could make awsome hunting compianions.the trick is time an patience u need to start the pup like a kidden gardner then move slowly.dont start out graduating because u be upset an if that pup is bred right he will teach u more then u no

[wheelieman]

I have no experience with coon dogs, I'm a lab guy myself and really enjoy training dogs, But any dog that's a house dog needs to learn basic obedience and collar conditioning is as important if not more than just about anything else, Stay away from training with treats, If your dog becomes lazy and refuses to do things unless it gets treats you'll have a fight on your hands, But basic obedience is the key for all retriever training with out it you might as well get a little lap dog, As far as coon hounds i have heard people at the club saying its easier to train a new dog when he is running with older dogs that can hunt, But really give praise and not treats when your training the results will be better, Also you might want to learn how to decipher the dogs body language so you can respond properly, Bored dogs dont like to train, They most often take longer to train and it shows in the finished product,

[Early]

First suggestion: Do not set out to train the perfect dog. I am not sure such even exists.

My only hunting dog was a black lab that I trained to be an all-purpose dog. She was just that: Without a doubt, she was the best pheasant dog and the best snowshoe hare dog in our whole area during her lifetime. In addition, with her, I successfully hunted cottontails...grouse...waterfowl...and, yes, even turkeys. I attribute my/our success to two things: First, she was a natural born hunter, and second, I let her hunt...never demanded that she hunt. I never used forced training...no electronic collars...no stern discipline. Most of my training was based on Woolter's book FAMILY DOG...and family dog, she was. Once I finished her basic obedience training, I taught her to trail game by playing "fetch" with her, after dark, using a scented softball. She got real good...real fast!

Note: If you want a perfect dog....Go to a toy store and buy a remote controlled make-believe dog.

[mike rossi]

Funny, because I use both treats and shock collars. A young pup is learning how to get food - thats why treat training works so rapidly. But when the pup gets a little older - and something competes with the dogs interest in the treat, the dog needs to understand negative reinforcement otherwise punishment is meaningless.

[wheelieman]

well every body has their own opinion, And ill continue to do what has proven itself time and again to me, I'm not saying your wrong we just do things different, I'm not going to argue if it works for you then have fun, I just simply don't like the problems that treat training presents, I find it easier to eliminate the treat temptation and work strictly with praise and a collar,

[mike rossi]

well every body has their own opinion, And ill continue to do what has proven itself time and again to me, I'm not saying your wrong we just do things different, I'm not going to argue if it works for you then have fun, I just simply don't like the problems that treat training presents, I find it easier to eliminate the treat temptation and work strictly with praise and a collar,

Not sure we disagree too much here. I wean pups off treat dependency real quick while introducing the prong , bark, and shock collars. If I had to give up one tool choosing between treats and shock collar, I would forgo the treats and keep the collar. Heres why: The training sequence is: 1) Teach 2) drill/repetition 3) discipline. You can do numbers 1,2,3 with a collar; but only number 1 with treats. In treat training it is the dog who actually controls the situation - if overdone it is the dog which actually trains the human, quite common and quite sad.

Even after number 1 is completed with treat training it is necessary to complete it again with negative reinforcement, ie. prong and shock collars. Here is why: Treat training only teaches the dog how to obtain a reward without teaching the dog that there is a consequence for not complying with a command.

Nevertheless I incorporate treat training during the initial teaching phase because this phase is basically "demonstrating" to the dog what you want the it to do. It works with any age dog, but as I indicated earlier one of the strongest drives of a just weaned pup is to learn how to obtain food. Treat training exploits that attitude in a newly-wean in a big way.

[Paula]

why do you use a shock and bark collar?

[mike rossi]

why do you use a shock and bark collar?

Clarification: the bark collar and the shock collar have different functions. The barker comes in two models: one which produces a shock and another which emits a spray. Use both. Some dogs (even some thick skinned dogs) will burn open sores into thier skin - those dogs are not suitable for shock bark collars. Use the spray collar if you have more than one dog or you have an idiot nieghbor who lets his dog wander over to your dogs fence enclosure. Reason: your dog may associate other dogs with the shock and develop a fight drive.

In response to your question: the bark shock collar helps in the process of conditioning the dog to the shock training collar. But avoid it if the above might occur. FYI: the process of collar conditioning is not a difficult one anyway, although the bark collar helps. Even if you do not plan to use bark shock collars as an adjunct to preconditioning your dog to the shock training collar; they should be used to control excessive barking along with bark spray collars. I am not aware of any issues (other than above) with them interfering with watch dogs or hounds from barking when it is appropriate.

[Doewhacker]

Some interesting veiws on dog training here.

Try to find someone you can trust and work with them to learn what to do to get started. Maybe even find a trainer.

[greybeard]

Why I used a shock collar:

I was opposed to using a shock collar and felt that I had successfully broke my hound from deer. One night I was with a friend, who had trained his dogs incredibly well, We were on a training run, and when my girl opened on a track he told me that she was running trash(deer). I didn't like the cadence, so to speak, of her barks, but it only lasted for seconds, so I dismissed it. I was insulted that he said that she ran a deer and told him that I broke her and he disagreed and said he'd show me.

We went to a field and flood lighted the field and saw a big buck with a doe(rut). I let my dog free, wearing a shock collar, and he put the spotlight on my dog.

The deer ran, she looked back towards me and didn't open. I arrogantly told my friend to OBSERVE !!!. With that she hit the tree line and opened on a track.. I knew it wasn't a coon because of the machine gun like barking. My friend said that she knew I didn't want her to open so she didn't while I was where she could see me. He asked me, "Would you rather shock her once and break her, or lose her on a deer track". I told him to do it. She yelped and returned back like she was beat up. I was concerned that she'd now be afraid to open on any track... He told me that it would have no effect on that because she thought that the deer did it to her.So she associated the shock with the deer only.

It worked and after that I could put her out in the middle of a herd of deer and never worried.

So it's not scientific proof I guess, but it worked for me.

MAYBE, if I had shocked my other Black and Tan, I wouldn't have lost her for so many days after SHE ran "trash".

[allblue bandit]

let the pup grow up first before u start frying it. some run deer some dont cant prevent it just happens.its not a bad thing atleast un know it can run a track.most can be broke the first time on others need alittle more time .just let the hound grow up have fun with take it the woods during the day let it smell the critters out there that are runnen wild let it swim creeks ponds canal just let it mature on its own.dont put barking collars on a hound because there suppose to bark u can ruin a gd hound that way. the use off barking collars if the dogs out in kennel barking allday at birds flys or any little thing that runs by.if thats the case that dog needs more than bark collar it needs serious help.this my own opnion after 25 years of raiseing hounds .there not lab or setter or bulldog they totally different they have hard head they have drive they have awsome noses to cold trial when 5 degrees /or stand there an bay bear until you get an not leave or swim a 5 acre beaver swamp to tree a coon to please u there not lap dogs.gd luck with the dog u will get what u put in that dog

Edited January 22, 2013 by allblue bandit

[greybeard]

Allblue.. You're right I would NOT shock a pup...Mine was older when I did it.. I guess I didn't put this in my post, when I got her she was not a pup..She had to be trained because she had no woods sense at first, but her natural abilities came out with exposure to what she was bred to do..I don't know anything about barking collars, never tried one, in fact, I'm not sure if I knew anyone who did use one... You're description of hunting hounds makes me miss those times, they were great...

Are there still coon hunting magazines ? If there are, maybe Dom could find a local club in the magazine for help. There used to be Full Cry and another one(I forgot the name). A lot of clubs, as you know, sent in articles and club news.

[allblue bandit]

yes there is alot of clubs out there. for magazine u got coonhoundbloodlines fullcry walk with wick ect.lets get back to shock collar.it is the best tool u could own if used by someone that doesnt have clue they could ruin that dog belive me .dont mean to get of track but i would never let a dog lose without gps collar on him.i want to know where that dog is all the time i have control of bad situations.

[Paula]

I think either of these collars used to control the barking is wrong. one knows how the dog is going to bark and sound before getting it and if one does not like it then why would one get a hound?

[greybeard]

They didn't have them then, but I remember the tracking collars, but I would use a gps if I still hunted..It's tough when you lose a dog, it sure would have helped me back then.

I would not have agreed to hit the dog with a shock if it was anybody else with me., The guy I was with, a bluetick man in fact, was an experienced hound man and knew what he was doing.I hunted with him, often and he taught me a lot.

[Jeremy K]

I got this guy almost a year ago and thought about getting him in the fields , he is black and tan coon /beagle and some shepperd it looks like . Seems like everytime i take him the woods he runs down a rabbit or chuck and ends up catching them . I guess he will save me money on ammo.

[Paula]

good looking dog!