Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[steve863]

Yup, it would benefit THEM and that's about the extent of it.  All the benefitting the herd nonsense is nothing but a charade.  Not being able to man up to the honest and simple facts that a blind man could see is what bothers me with all this stuff.  You want to kill big bucks?  Good.  Just don't insult anyone's intelligence with phoney biology that clearly benefits trophy hunters more than it would benefit any deer herd.

[Fairgame]

Its a perfect answer for the people that live in the area where big bucks live or get to be older where you can make a choice in doing as you please and dont need any type of regulation. Its not true that there are big bucks everywhere.  It would be great to have no regulations and have all hunters satisfied, but thats not where we are in all parts of this state.

The DEC has put themselves in a hole With not having enough money for anything and it will be less and less every year because of their great Idea of lifetime licenses and higher license cost.  ARs are not the ones limiting hunters on hunting its the dec and their way of pushing more and more hunters out of this thing we all love to do.  selling lifetime licences and raising license cost are going to kill them in their revenues if they dont change things now.

For alot people antlers is what its about, its the reason they probably want to hunt, nothing wrong with it. I would much rather shoot a nice buck on my own land than have to go out of state to accomplish this.  There are no guarantees in hunting but would be nice to atleast know that I have the opportunity on my own land.

Then lets not paint the entire state and say that there are big bucks everywhere

[Karpteach]

The SAD thing is that some people try to push an agenda down peoples throat. Thank GOD, we do have a choice. People have the freedom to say whatever they want. However, we do not need to all hear it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You are teling me each WMU in the state does not hold big bucks? BS. They are there. Sure there are regions that have a higher tendency for them but they are state wide. there are pics posted form across the state.

And this is a personal observation and opinion. The view that folks are in this for the horns is sad. I beleive it is true but I'll take my "scrub" racks that I took during outing with friends and family with the more important memories that go along with them.

My second biggest buck I took- a 148- 8 point- I took solo. I was in the woods a total of 15 minutes. I scouted it knew it and took it. and you know for me....the satisfaction of being at hunting camp for a weekend and taking a spike give me better and more lasting memories. It is sad that it has gotten to be about the horns and not the hunt.

[sampotter]

The main fact is that everyone is in it for different reasons. I hunt to get away from the social scene. A comment earlier about needing to get a job if you have so much time to hunt; I am a dairy farmer- I milk 1900 cows. I work over 60 hours a week, every week, except I save some vacation days to hunt. I still pass on little bucks. I'd rather watch them than kill them, but its the thought of a musclebound, stinky, mature buck that really makes it exciting. But, like I said- we are all hunting for different reasons.

As for the internet tough guys- you remind me of that Brad Paisley song. Grow up. This forum is here to bring hunters together- not make enemies.

Lively discussion is one thing- being jackasses is another.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

60 hours a week Sam....must be a part time farmer...lol. Hard work. I have been there. I think you hit it right on the head...you CHOOSE to pass. I do on many occasions now too. But it is your choice. I think all the opponents of this AR stuff are saying just that. It should be the hunters choice. I have seen some of the AR guys talk about just supporting it in their area...but then argue foe the benefits for across thw state. I am sure there are areas in the state that may benefit and some like John truely speak of his experiences and observations. That I respect. Those spewing talking points and smell of an agenda...I don't trust them any more than politicians. I am very guarded near any folks trying to impose there preference on others.

[TheHunter]

Yup, it would benefit THEM and that's about the extent of it.  All the benefitting the herd nonsense is nothing but a charade.  Not being able to man up to the honest and simple facts that a blind man could see is what bothers me with all this stuff.  You want to kill big bucks?  Good.  Just don't insult anyone's intelligence with phoney biology that clearly benefits trophy hunters more than it would benefit any deer herd.

The BS that spews out of your mouth is phenomenal.  Stop insulting our intelligence and admit your a brown its down man.  Regardless of what you think, there are a lot of hunters who practice QDM, want AR, and the AR zones will expand and NY state will eventually come up with a state wide deer management plan for area's that need it.  Again, YOUR area might not need any assistance, while other area's do. 

[punch]

just a thought, some people are screaming "you antler guys" are "selfish" and only think of yourselves bit.  yet in the same breathe are screaming, I want to be able to do what I want. Its about my hunt and my good times and my buddies. Yet if I want to keep doe numbers in check and pass on little bucks, I'm the one being selfish.  I have the "agenda".  If thats the case then I guess we shouldn't even have a season or bag limit.  Lets jack em all year round from the truck window, so long as you have a buddy with you to enjoy the memories.

[Pygmy]

Until my recent divorce, I owned property that was included in a local hunting co-op that practiced QDM, to some extent.. For the last ten years or so the minimum  size buck allowed has been an 8 point with a ~ 15" spread..

It really didn't make much difference, since we had neighbors all around that shot anything with antlers as soon as the deer crossed the property lines...

As far as I knew, the members supported the AR because they hoped to see some bucks with bigger antlers..

What I have never understood is what does AR do to improve the herd... I have seen the result of it in PA ( BIGGER, but many less bucks taken) but I have never heard good explanation of it benefits, other than growing bigger antlers..

Many of us, for various reasons, really don't CARE about bigger antlers, but all hunters should be concerned about the health of the herd..

Can anyone give me a good explanation of how AR benefits the overall health of the deer herd..??...

[TheHunter]

just a thought, some people are screaming "you antler guys" are "selfish" and only think of yourselves bit.  yet in the same breathe are screaming, I want to be able to do what I want. Its about my hunt and my good times and my buddies. Yet if I want to keep doe numbers in check and pass on little bucks, I'm the one being selfish.  I have the "agenda".  If thats the case then I guess we shouldn't even have a season or bag limit.  Lets jack em all year round from the truck window, so long as you have a buddy with you to enjoy the memories.

Excellent point punch.  Whats odd is, where I hunt, an AR zone.  Not only have the bucks been able to mature slightly, there are more harvestable bucks around now then before AR kicked in.  So now your presented with a choice, ah should I shoot that nice 6, or nah, maybe I'll wait for those two nice beefy 8's that I saw on the trail cam to come in.

What great is,  75% of this Anti AR guys live in zones where harvesting a more mature buck is a possibility.  They are speaking for MY AREA WHEN THEY ARE HOURS AWAY and have no idea what the hunting conditions are in the my area.

[punch]

it sounds like you have more bucks in your area now then you did before.  Thats horrible!  Not to mention selfish!  and I don't see how that can be good for the herd.  After all, we should be able to shoot all the bucks we want off the landscape and leave it to mother nature to fix the mess.  I'm I right?

[burmjohn]

I'd have to agree, there are more bucks now then before and larger bucks.  I went 2 seasons of hunting with out seeing a single buck before AR kicked in (and I hunt both bow and rifle).  Now, spending a long 5 day weekend hunting for example, I see bucks (not guaranteed to shoot them, last year I was not presented with a shooting opportunity).

[punch]

Its never a guarantee, thats why they call it hunting and not killing.  I never had an opportunity at a bigger buck last year either, but I shot does, let the little bucks walk, and still had a great time, both when I was alone and when I was at deer camp with the guys. 

[burmjohn]

Yup, I had a blast   Any deer get my blood pumping, I do not have to harvest anything to have a good time.  Trust me, if that was the case, I would have had 10 seasons of unfunness (is that a word?!?? ).   

[JCTheGC]

I guess the PA biologists must have it all wrong when they issued it state wide.  ???

"Based on data, it does not appear antler point  restrictions significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania.  However, antler restrictions do have other benefits. Some of which we  can measure, some of which we can’t. Antler restrictions have increased  buck survival, have no negative impact on genetics, increased the number  of adult bucks in the harvest, and are supported by hunters.

Deer,  like people, benefit from a more stable social organization. Imagine if  males were removed from the human world by the age of 20. How would  that alter society as we know it? Prior to antler restrictions a major  social component – specifically, older males – was missing from the  Pennsylvania deer herd. Antler restrictions are giving us the  opportunity to return adult age classes to the herd. While we cannot  measure the social and behavioral benefit this type of change will have,  it is difficult to argue against one existing given what is known about  social structure of deer.

Jeannine Tardiff Fleegle

Wildlife Biologist, Deer & Elk Management Section

PA Game Commission"

[punch]

I wouldn't see how having better age structure would do anything about the intensity or timing of the rut.  I think that would most likely be affected by better buck/doe ratios.  Not to be confused with "phoney biology" that only benefits trophy hunters.

[JCTheGC]

I wouldn't see how having better age structure would do anything about the intensity or timing of the rut.  I think that would most likely be affected by better buck/doe ratios.  Not to be confused with "phoney biology" that only benefits trophy hunters.

Bingo!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You are so full of crap thehunter...enough is enough...not one comment I recall seeing said anything about changing your precious area. They have called into question all your inflated facts though....you on the other hand HAVE taken multiple opportunities to express a desire to have this crap in other areas if not all the state. So it is obvious who has n agenda

[TheHunter]

Oh, I'm full of crap.  LOL, your full of crap.  I have first hand experience, family and friends that hunt in AR units that have first hand experience with the benefits of AR.  I stated its great in MY AREA, and there are clearly other area's that need it and those that do not.  Your assumptions are a joke.

[SteveB]

Not only have the bucks been able to mature slightly, there are more harvestable bucks around now then before AR kicked in.

it sounds like you have more bucks in your area now then you did before

And yet the harvest is down aprox 300 bucks or 30%.

Antler restrictions have increased  buck survival,

Same thing - the overall buck harvest in Pa is down by a huge number over pre AR.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Punch...don't mix two issues...keeping doe numbers in check have nothing to do withAR.shoot all thw does you have tags for...I do....many do. What many, including myself are questioning here is the AR movement wanting to impose their views on others...I can tell from your extreme comments and reaction talking about no laws that the opponents fears are warranted. AR want it their way and only their way...no reverence to tradition...no consideration of others.....those good times you are mocking....make it sound like a drunken frat party....try them...strapping that big buck on your hood nd driving around showing it off and begging back pats will never measure up. Some hunters judge their success by their name in book others by their joy in their heart...pick one

[punch]

If they are not being shot then where did they all go?  OH NO!!!!  They must still be out there! Getting bigger! or maybe they are being abducted by aliens.  Any thoughts?

[punch]

I'm selfish remember..I want both!

[TheHunter]

And yet the harvest is down aprox 300 bucks or 30%.

SteveB, thanks for that fun fact, don't forget to mention harvest is down ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE OF NY.  Whoops, forgot to mention that one eh?

[punch]

Honestly, I'm not for or against AR. I'm not pushing either way.  I do think it would help. We wouldn't need it if more hunters looked at the science of it all.  It draws into question many issues.  It angers many people.  People fire back raging remarks.  Is anyone thinking of reasonable solutions?  Are we all looking at the facts?  When I hear comments like "phoney biology"  its saying that "I'm right, you're wrong, I don't want know the facts, I want whats best for me, and couldn't care less about the animal so many of us love to pursue.