Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[punch]

The comradery experienced at a deer camp is second to none, agreed.  I was there last season and it was one of my most favorite hunts.  Having a 4 pointer on the deer pole out front wouldn't have made it any better in my opinion.  The other guys did well with an 8,9,and 10 pointer.  I passed a 1.5 yr old 7 and got nothing.  No regrets though.  Don't you get it?

[SteveB]

And yet the harvest is down aprox 300 bucks or 30%.

SteveB, thanks for that fun fact, don't forget to mention harvest is down ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE OF NY.  Whoops, forgot to mention that one eh?

Is the harvest down 30% across the entire state?

Just pointing out there is a 30% reduction in the area some are claiming there are more bucks to be harvesting. If they are even more then before AR, why is the drop in kills so significant?

[TheHunter]

SteveB,

In 2000 there was a state high of 140,857 bucks taken.  2004 it was 88,733 bucks.  It's slowly climbing back up with jumping numbers since then.

Here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/42246.html

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I will be requesting DEC's back up studies for the wmu 3 AR regulation....but the science you talk about seems to always come either from an interested party, opinion presented as fact or misrepresented. The broad brush position of some on AR can not be the correct approach. The state is broken into wmu's for a good reason....the situations vary widely across the state.

Management of the herd for the betterment of the herd will never be a bad thing...I would support it whole heartidly. I have yet to see empirical data that explains how AR betters the health of the herd. And I mean full and comprehensive data...not a 2% opinion poll pushed off as 70% on favor.

We have a great deer population in NY...way better opportunities than 30 years ago when I started....I just need to see any justification to change something that, in my opinion has worked....is based in generations of tradition and takes individual freedom away

[Fairgame]

From what I see myself doing and others I hunt with.  We are passing on the 5 or 6 point yearling by choice whether we get anything or not.  Just knowing that the bigger ones are now there I take my chances.

Could that be the reason Maybee but I cant speak for everyone.  Then again It could also be less reported deer who knows.  All I know is I have definitely had more opportunity to legally harvest more deer than ever before but choose to hold out for an older buck

[punch]

Aren't the polls on this very website in favor of AR?

[punch]

I agree with the drop in "reported" deer.  There needs to be some improvement there on actually reporting harvests.

[TheHunter]

I will be requesting DEC's back up studies for the wmu 3 AR regulation....but the science you talk about seems to always come either from an interested party, opinion presented as fact or misrepresented. The broad brush position of some on AR can not be the correct approach. The state is broken into wmu's for a good reason....the situations vary widely across the state.

Management of the herd for the betterment of the herd will never be a bad thing...I would support it whole heartidly. I have yet to see empirical data that explains how AR betters the health of the herd. And I mean full and comprehensive data...not a 2% opinion poll pushed off as 70% on favor.

We have a great deer population in NY...way better opportunities than 30 years ago when I started....I just need to see any justification to change something that, in my opinion has worked....is based in generations of tradition and takes individual freedom away

That would be great to see that info. 

Here is the issue, who else is going to have the cash to study something other then an interested party? Can I, as joe hunter fund such a study? Nope.  I respect the QDMA and their biologists.  When people say that what they come up with based on their experience, knowledge, and expertise as hogwash and bullshit, thats where I have an issue.  How can QDM be BAD!?  I have food plots, I pass on younger deer.  But to make the herd better for EVERY hunter a majority  has to participate in some shape or form.  I, as a AR and QDM supporter am not asking you to stop shooting bucks.  Passing on < 1.5's to give them the chance to grow slightly older, breed, and survive is really in the grand scheme of things a small thing to ask.  Every single hunter  benefits from that.

[SteveB]

SteveB,

In 2000 there was a state high of 140,857 bucks taken.  2004 it was 88,733 bucks.  It's slowly climbing back up with jumping numbers since then.

Here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/42246.html

Thanks for the link.

It shows the last 6 years the buck take has been increasing - aprox 34% total.

During the same time the buck take has decreased significantly in the AR regions - down 30%.

[TheHunter]

And where is the data that supports this stat?

[punch]

Maybe the overall buck harvest is down, what does it say about the age class of bucks harvested.  This doesn't mean it's bad.  Let's look at the whole picture.

[SteveB]

And where is the data that supports this stat?

Here - in another thread we have all enjoyed. ;D

http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=108.0;attach=2231

Pg 37 of the  Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts

Larry's post about 2/3 of the way down.

[burmjohn]

Based on the data the DEC is providing from 2006 to 2009, 4 years of data shows the following for the WMU's with AR:

3C: from 508 bucks to 514 bucks = 1% +

3H: from 876 bucks to 1245 bucks = 42% +

3J:  from 712 bucks to 797 bucks = 19% +

3K: from 656 bucks to 568 bucks = 13% -

Please explain to me where the 30% decrease in bucks are?

[SteveB]

Maybe the overall buck harvest is down, what does it say about the age class of bucks harvested.  This doesn't mean it's bad.  Let's look at the whole picture.

Reading from a chart - all numbers are aprox.

1.5 down 400 while 2.5 and older are up only a little over a 100.

And the pre AR % of 1.5 looks about 58% - not the 70 to 80% number often put forth.

[burmjohn]

And where is the data that supports this stat?

Here - in another thread we have all enjoyed. ;D

http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=108.0;attach=2231

Pg 37 of the  Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts

Larry's post about 2/3 of the way down.

That graph is irrelevant, the data from 2002 ( the statewide high of 140k bucks harvested in 2000) when AR was implemented the buck harvest numbers dropped statewide till it 2004 has has not recovered since statewide.  Do that same graph for all areas from 2002 till today it will show the same exact thing. 

[SteveB]

The chart shows an average not counting the 1st year.

What year where the AR's 1st implimented?

[burmjohn]

Please explain to me where the 30% decrease in bucks are?

In the chart from the DEC report Larry posted.

Which is irrelevant due to the numbers statewide dropping from 140k bucks to 89k bucks statewide from 2000 to 2005 which skews the results and has yet to even come close to returning to the 2000 numbers well before AR was implemented.  In 2009 there were 102,057 bucks taken statewide.

[punch]

Okay, by looking at the entire picture would mean looking at biology.  The entire picture doesn't always get painted into a cheesy little bar graph.  Biology tells us that bucks go through what is called "dispersal" at roughly 1.5 yrs. of age.  Mother natures way of spreading genetics and avoiding inbreeding.  If yearlings disperse outside the wmu's of AR, bang! there shot and gone.  Fewer yearlings outside these wmu's could disperse into it cause again..bang! there shot.  Could this be part of the reason for not so impressive graph charts?  We do know that the chart says 2.5 and older buck harvest went up. Something to think about, maybe a broader stroke is needed to gain even better results.  Just sayin...what do you think?

[Caveman]

What ever happened to "live and let live"? Everyone wants to dictate everyone else's behavior these days.  I may be a newb but all I see here on any of these AR or QDM posts is people trying to push their opinion down other people's throats.  It's coming from both sides, no one party is guilty.  Can't we just agree to disagree? 

[TheHunter]

What ever happened to "live and let live"? Everyone wants to dictate everyone else's behavior these days.  I may be a newb but all I see here on any of these AR or QDM posts is people trying to push their opinion down other people's throats.  It's coming from both sides, no one party is guilty.  Can't we just agree to disagree?

We would like to Live and let live (at least 2 years at a minimum), except the anti-AR guys like to kill and kill.. 

KIDDING!!!!

[Larry]

:  I have the 2010 Deer Hunting Forecast there is a graph showing the harvest and bow hunter sighting rates from 1998-2009.

What I found interesting is you would expect in 2005when the AR’s went in affect the deer take would go down. Now after 5 years you would expect to see a rebound in the harvest or at least a substantial increase in the bow hunter sightings rates of deer. What I would have to ask is where are the deer?  the graph may be bow harvst it is the buck harvest

2010deer4castr3.pdf

[growalot]

Wow ...I just got through reading this thread...and I have to say....the visual it gave me was pretty much in line with a bunch of guy standing in a locker room...hhmmm....sizing up the guys around him....seriously...from what I've been observing over the past 30+ yrs...the DEC is boarder clueless and the the AVERAGE hunter is clueless as to what is going on in the deer woods....

God almighty wake up and realize that everyone has an agenda...DEC is run by politicians...that are run by special interest groups....and please don't get me going on the QDM thing...because that would swing me to NY guru Charles A....what a total joke that is.....$$$$$$$$$ ppl

Though I will admit that it has some merit...but not the altruistic ones ppl love to label it with....Don't we have enough ppl poking their noses in our business on a daily bases? We need more?!...What happened to going hunting for the enjoyment of it and not just the bragging rights...what happened to the thrill of a good clean kill on what ever deer we shoot and the time we spent hunting it...time spent in the woods...with family and friends...real friends not the Ohh hunting is coming up lets call so and so who has land : ...And where the hell did we stole any shred of respect....

Every body wants to beat the "Jones"...be it his neighbor...or anther STATE...hey why don't you take a good look at what those big buck states have for ppl populations ..compared to NY...and don't throw NJ bucks at me because they are clearly smart enough to hide and adapt in populated areas...just like Rochester big bucks....Really know wonder states are loosing hunters....reading some of these forums...especially the closer the season gets...it's hard not to want to quit   

[nyslowhand]

You go girl!!!

My 2¢;

You would think that the 70 pages of discussion on AR in at least 3 separate topics would have given every member the opportunity to air their opinion....????

The chest beating, "in-your-face" attitudes and constantly repeating your views are all non-productive to a healthy discussion.

No matter how much you try to bully someone or attempt to drive your opinion down their throat - it's a losing cause!

Almost every poster states that each hunter should be allowed to hunt how they like to, then you keep campaigning your opinion.

What's the end result of this discussion - winner is the person that gets the last word in or the last man standing?

This isn't a championship MMA or WWE cage match & no one gets bragging rights for "Best Brow Beater"!!!

This topic is getting beaten into the ground and everyone seems to be resurfacing old facts or personal experiences and chasing their tails.  Keep the discussion real and personal. Don't bring in agendas you may have outside the scope of this forum.

Back to the topic;

Human nature; Every hunter's idea of what they expect out of the experience differs.

Whitetail biology; Deer genetics, behavior and habitat vary greatly, even within specific management units.

Courtesy; If you don't know my specific situation, don't tell me I need to hunt in a way that is based on personal experiences in your area.

I hunt the way I like to and how it gives me a pleasurable experience, while doing so within the law.

You want to be a "Killer", got at it safely & within the law! I'm a hunter.

You want to hunt for horn, don't tell me I need to hunt that way! I cherish memories, not mounts on a wall.

If you hunt to fill the freezer, God bless you & do it! I do too.

If I get a thrill out of encounters with or being able to harvest a 4pt buck or doe - it's my hunt!

Don't criticize how I like to hunt and I promise I'll never criticize how you attain pleasure from your hunting experience!!!!!!

[punch]

Mr. Hunt safe, smart, and ethical...One mans views on ethics doesn't always line up with another's.  Hunt smart?  I'm willing to bet QDM hunters do more research on deer, habitat, and management than non-qdm hunters, and last but not least hunt safe.  If we piled up stats on accidents where one hunter harmed another?  I'm not the one flinging 5 slugs in 3 seconds at a running 4 pointer in woods.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Amen......A+ nyslowhand and growalot