Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[nyantler]

So, your answer to the thread question would be ... that it IS hard to pass up a yearling buck? Just wondering if you passed up any does before you killed the 3-point?

[TheHunter]

just shot one last month yots have ben eatting the carcus got 47 lbs of meet nice 3 pointer

[fasteddie]

I passed on a 5 point and Spike in South Bristol during bow season . They were the only shooting possibilities I had all season but I don't regret it . Another bowhunter shot the 5 point and he was elated .

[Buckstopshere]

A guy I know has great success, coming at this buck management thing from a different perspective.

He has been  managing a large property for a number of years and lets a number of family and friends hunt it. He allows them to shoot any legal buck, but no does or antlerless bucks.

Most of the hunters shoot yearling bucks, they tag their deer and are done for the season. Everybody is happy...especially the big bucks because they have a much better chance of making it through the season, and the competition for does and food is pared down.

And besides the big bucks, especially the landowner because by letting his hunters shoot the small bucks,... the 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks have a much better chance to make it through the season.

In other words, by allowing yearling bucks to be shot, the pressure is lessened on the 2.5 year old deer to really turn into real dandy animals.

The popular buck management Kool Aid being so-over sold now is to protect the spikes and scrubs and shoot the 2.5 that is a bit bigger. Whack all the bigger ones and leave the little guys...each year.

How is that going to produce real trophy bucks, (if that's the goal?) It doesn't. It just produces a bunch of 2.5 year olds that are certainly nice bucks in their own right, but because of all the hunting pressure on them, very, very few ever go beyond.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On a managed property you may be able to remove al 1.5's but on a WMU or state level you will never harvest all the 1.5's. but say he is able to take them all....eventually...in a closed system the older bucks are gone  either by selective harvest...ot natural causes and nothing is there to replace them

[WNYBuckHunter]

A guy I know has great success, coming at this buck management thing from a different perspective.

He has been  managing a large property for a number of years and lets a number of family and friends hunt it. He allows them to shoot any legal buck, but no does or antlerless bucks.

Most of the hunters shoot yearling bucks, they tag their deer and are done for the season. Everybody is happy...especially the big bucks because they have a much better chance of making it through the season, and the competition for does and food is pared down.

And besides the big bucks, especially the landowner because by letting his hunters shoot the small bucks,... the 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks have a much better chance to make it through the season.

In other words, by allowing yearling bucks to be shot, the pressure is lessened on the 2.5 year old deer to really turn into real dandy animals.

The popular buck management Kool Aid being so-over sold now is to protect the spikes and scrubs and shoot the 2.5 that is a bit bigger. Whack all the bigger ones and leave the little guys...each year.

How is that going to produce real trophy bucks, (if that's the goal?) It doesn't. It just produces a bunch of 2.5 year olds that are certainly nice bucks in their own right, but because of all the hunting pressure on them, very, very few ever go beyond.

Soooooo if people shoot up all of the little guys, where do the older ones come from? The only way you can get mature bucks is to let them walk when they are young. There is no deer in the woods that is more stupid than a young buck in the rut.

I honestly dont think that people truly believe that ARs or passing yearlings or 1 1/2 year olds is going to magically produce 140+ deer in a year or two. You have to pass the basket racks and the 2 1/2s and even the 3 1/2s if you really want some bruisers. Of course the occasional buck will slip through the cracks even if you are banging away at the scrubs and spikes, but you are just increasing the odds of seeing a big buck if you pass the little ones. To be really effective, you have to get the landowners all around you on board as well, or own a huge chunk of property.

[Buckstopshere]

There is tremendous yearling recruitment to well-managed (sanctuary, food plot, controlled access) properties. A large percentage of yearling bucks (70%) travel great distances, naturally. It is called yearling buck dispersal. Chances are that those yearling bucks that are protected will not be around next season anyway.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/707300/where_does_the_buck_stop_pdf

[Buckstopshere]

"Soooooo if people shoot up all of the little guys, where do the older  ones come from? The only way you can get mature bucks is to let them  walk when they are young. There is no deer in the woods that is more  stupid than a young buck in the rut."

Your premise that "All" the little guys get shot is not accurate around these parts in the Southern Zone on large, controlled properties. The idea is to take the pressure off the 2.5 year olds so they have a chance.

Let's say on a 500 acre piece you have 10 yearlings, five 2.5 year olds and one or two 3.5's or better. And you let 10 guys hunt it, year after year.

When you think about it...which property will produce the most big bucks in reality...? The one that protects only the yearlings or the one that allows a bunch of yearlings to be harvested and therefore the bigger bucks to live?

Which one would you or the average guy want to hunt on if you had a choice, one with a good possibility of a real racker...or one overrun with little guys?

[WNYBuckHunter]

There  is tremendous yearling recruitment to well-managed (sanctuary, food  plot, controlled access) properties. A large percentage of yearling  bucks (70%) travel great distances, naturally. It is called yearling  buck dispersal. Chances are that those yearling bucks that are protected  will not be around next season anyway.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/707300/where_does_the_buck_stop_pdf

Chances are even worse if you shoot them. 

BTW, I did say that you had to have your neighbors on board or a huge chunk of land to get it to work properly. I can tell you that at my father's property, we have 8 to 10 total landowners with property that butts up together that are all passing anything under 8 points, and alot of them are passing anything inside the ears. Its been going on for a few years now, and there are a few groups mixed in there that dont do it, but it has been working. I, and others that hunt the area, have been seeing more bucks in the 3 1/2 year old and older age classes more often. Sealing the deal on one is another story, but we are seeing them.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is tremendous yearling recruitment to well-managed (sanctuary, food plot, controlled access) properties. A large percentage of yearling bucks (70%) travel great distances, naturally. It is called yearling buck dispersal. Chances are that those yearling bucks that are protected will not be around next season anyway.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/707300/where_does_the_buck_stop_pdf

But it is a 2 way street.....i.5's from around go to that property as wel

[WNYBuckHunter]

"Soooooo if people shoot up all of the little guys, where do the older  ones come from? The only way you can get mature bucks is to let them  walk when they are young. There is no deer in the woods that is more  stupid than a young buck in the rut."

Your premise that "All" the little guys get shot is not accurate around these parts in the Southern Zone on large, controlled properties. The idea is to take the pressure off the 2.5 year olds so they have a chance.

Let's say on a 500 acre piece you have 10 yearlings, five 2.5 year olds and one or two 3.5's or better. And you let 10 guys hunt it, year after year.

When you think about it...which property will produce the most big bucks in reality...? The one that protects only the yearlings or the one that allows a bunch of yearlings to be harvested and therefore the bigger bucks to live?

Which one would you or the average guy want to hunt on if you had a choice, one with a good possibility of a real racker...or one overrun with little guys?

I would hunt the one with the least amount of pressure on it, the one where the little guys are being passed on. When you start hunting the crap out of the property by taking a ton of small deer, you are inadvertently putting pressure on the big guys, and they wont stick around too long with all of that going on, or they just go noctournal.

[Buckstopshere]

Right, except there is a sanctuary on one side of the property, real thick and butting up against houses and residential land that nobody hunts, scouts, or peeks into (30 acres.) The does hang in there, as well as their boyfriends. My two scents is that the sanctuary on a piece of hunting ground is as important, if not moreso than food, or any management plan. It was amazing to see it work this year.

[burmjohn]

A guy I know has great success, coming at this buck management thing from a different perspective.

He has been  managing a large property for a number of years and lets a number of family and friends hunt it. He allows them to shoot any legal buck, but no does or antlerless bucks.

Most of the hunters shoot yearling bucks, they tag their deer and are done for the season. Everybody is happy...especially the big bucks because they have a much better chance of making it through the season, and the competition for does and food is pared down.

And besides the big bucks, especially the landowner because by letting his hunters shoot the small bucks,... the 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks have a much better chance to make it through the season.

In other words, by allowing yearling bucks to be shot, the pressure is lessened on the 2.5 year old deer to really turn into real dandy animals.

The popular buck management Kool Aid being so-over sold now is to protect the spikes and scrubs and shoot the 2.5 that is a bit bigger. Whack all the bigger ones and leave the little guys...each year.

How is that going to produce real trophy bucks, (if that's the goal?) It doesn't. It just produces a bunch of 2.5 year olds that are certainly nice bucks in their own right, but because of all the hunting pressure on them, very, very few ever go beyond.

So shooting all of the 1.5's so they never get to 2.5 and beyond is a good solution?

[nyantler]

I'd like to know how you get 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks when you are killing all the bucks that would become 2.5 and 3.5... makes no sense. That would infer that the older bucks skip being younger and are older immediately upon their birth...

[burmjohn]

I'd like to know how you get 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks when you are killing all the bucks that would become 2.5 and 3.5... makes no sense. That would infer that the older bucks skip being younger and are older immediately upon their birth...

Agreed!

[Buckstopshere]

Guys, read the science about yearling dispersal.

Quote: Upwards of 70% leave for parts unknown, whether it is 300, 500 or 1,000 acres. It is an oversold myth to think those little guys you pass on are all going to hang around.

The idea is to let hunters shoot the little guys, get out of the woods and protect the 2.5 year olds and take some of the pressure off them because those are the ones the following year, if they make it through that we all talk about.

The no shooting of yearling bucks puts tremendous pressure on the 2.5 year olds that's why some of the properties that have drank the Kool Aid of AR management scratch their heads when they can actually look at the production and realize that they are not shooting any bigger bucks than they ever did.

I know that shooting the little guys seems counterintuitive.

I used to think like you guys....but the protection of yearling bucks and thinking they will all hang around, grow into a dandy buck to shoot the following year, or even the year after that is another case of a beautiful theory murdered by a ruthless gang of facts.

[SplitG2]

Duke, you are joking right ???  because that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read(no disrespect) not talking about the 70%, you got that right.

[Buckstopshere]

Split: Wow. That covers a lot of territory! Lots of ridiculous stuff in the world. And I am sure we would agree on most of it.  ;D

Seriously, if I got the Yearling Dispersal right, doesn't it follow that the yearlings that you passed on are going to be long gone? In other words it is a fantasy that they will be there to shoot next year when they are 2.5 year olds. Right?

[Doc]

I suppose that one thing to keep in mind is there most likely is not one area where 100% of the 1.5 year olds are harvested. We like to say that but I doubt that ever really happens.  It is also true that the yearling buck you let walk is unlikely to be the one you will be hunting in the future. So even if you could successfully wipe out every 1.5 yr old on your property, their will be another crop of them that come wandering onto your land to set up house-keeping. And they will likely come from your AR practicing neighbor who let them all walk.

I don't know .... some of this is really starting to get a bit far out into the theoretical now. There seems to be an awful lot of "if you do this then maybe that will happen" going on here ....  .

All I can say is ...... ???

[cwhite]

New guy here who has been a troll lurking on this site for months without joining.  Felt I should join when I had something productive to contribute.  Here it goes.

I can talk from experience.  I hunt about a 1200 acre piece with my father, brother, grandfather, and 2 neighbors.  We used to shoot any buck we saw and would give each other high fives at each spike buck gut pile.  95% of these deer were 1 year olds.  When I say 1 year old, obviously I am referring to a deer that is 1.5 years old at hunting season, same with 2, 3, or 4 year olds.  Our wall of antlers was filled with spikes, 3's, 4's, 5's and the occasional 6.  We had two 8 pointers and a 9 pointer between 6 guys who were hunting every day for 15 northern tier hunting seasons.  None of us starved but we didn't have too many trophy bucks either. 

In 2007 we found the thrill of a spike buck was gone and collectively decided to started hunting 2 year olds and up.  We had a pretty slow season that year.  Our hunting party put one antlered buck on the meat pole, but we filled up our freezers with does.  2008 we killed 2, 8 pointers and a 9 pointer.  2009 we killed four 8 pointers and an 11 pointer that grossed 167".  This past season we killed a monster 5 point, four 8 pointers, and a nine pointer.  We blew it on a 150+ monster because a cellphone made it to stand and went off at the worst time possible.  I passed on an 8 point and 9 point the last day of our late muzzleloader season.  We all killed a mature doe as well. 

I know from experience that passing on yearling bucks works.  I don't hold anything against a guy who kills a spike but I do think the idiot who kills several spikes and crotches each season needs to be dealt with.

On a side note, we have found that most of our yearling dispersal happens around August and September.  That is when we notice our little bucks disappear and a whole new group of yearling bucks show up.  We also find that these little bucks set up home and are there the following seasons as 6 and 8 pointers.  Don't know if it is the same everywhere but that is our experience.

Like the old saying goes, "If you want to kill an 8 pointer you can't kill a 4 poiner."

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Welcome Cwhite. Glad you finally made the plunge to join...lol. Enter at your own risk . Sounds like you had a great season. If you don't mind me asking...where in the northern teir do you hunt? Were the does you took Bow/ML or are you in one of the few doe permit areas up there?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Guys, read the science about yearling dispersal.

Quote: Upwards of 70% leave for parts unknown, whether it is 300, 500 or 1,000 acres. It is an oversold myth to think those little guys you pass on are all going to hang around.

The idea is to let hunters shoot the little guys, get out of the woods and protect the 2.5 year olds and take some of the pressure off them because those are the ones the following year, if they make it through that we all talk about.

The no shooting of yearling bucks puts tremendous pressure on the 2.5 year olds that's why some of the properties that have drank the Kool Aid of AR management scratch their heads when they can actually look at the production and realize that they are not shooting any bigger bucks than they ever did.

I know that shooting the little guys seems counterintuitive.

I used to think like you guys....but the protection of yearling bucks and thinking they will all hang around, grow into a dandy buck to shoot the following year, or even the year after that is another case of a beautiful theory murdered by a ruthless gang of facts.

Why does it matter how much the deer wander during the season? If you shoot all of the 1.5s (or the majority of them), then you are never going to get as many older bucks, its pretty simple really.

[cwhite]

Culver I hunt in 6A in Northern Franklin County.  We are guaranteed four 6a doe tags thanks to the land owner permits.  We do most of our doe management during the late muzzleloader season.  We like to let the fawns get big and fat before venturing alone during the winter and have the does around during the rut to draw bucks from surrounding properties who don't pass on a stiff hair let alone an antler. 

[fasteddie]

Sounds like a sound , workable plan !

[nyantler]

Guys, read the science about yearling dispersal.

Quote: Upwards of 70% leave for parts unknown, whether it is 300, 500 or 1,000 acres. It is an oversold myth to think those little guys you pass on are all going to hang around.

The idea is to let hunters shoot the little guys, get out of the woods and protect the 2.5 year olds and take some of the pressure off them because those are the ones the following year, if they make it through that we all talk about.

The no shooting of yearling bucks puts tremendous pressure on the 2.5 year olds that's why some of the properties that have drank the Kool Aid of AR management scratch their heads when they can actually look at the production and realize that they are not shooting any bigger bucks than they ever did.

I know that shooting the little guys seems counterintuitive.

I used to think like you guys....but the protection of yearling bucks and thinking they will all hang around, grow into a dandy buck to shoot the following year, or even the year after that is another case of a beautiful theory murdered by a ruthless gang of facts.

You show me one study where QDM is in place where the guys have said that the buck quality and quantity isn't better... there isn't one... even where the AR's like 3 on a side (which doesn't protect all the yearlings) is in place have shown increases in the quantity of older bucks. The amount of really big bucks will depend on how strict the AR is. I understaand that there are a lot of people that have different opinions about AR's but you should base your opinion on fact. If you don't like AR's because you don't like the infringement on your freedom kill what you want, that's just fine. But saying that it doesn't produce more and bigger bucks is just flat out wrong.