Is NYB shooting themselves in the foot?

[Karpteach]

NYB is not doing anything for most NY archers. They have their own little agenda and if you don't fit their mold they aren't helping you. Let me rephrase your last question, "What is NYB doing for the crossbow archers?"

I agree with you wholehearted. After my initial payment to NYB, I refused to rejoin.

[sits in trees]

I think allowing the crossbow is about recruitment and retention in the hunting fraternity - and we NEED BOTH.

I won't slam NYB because they do good things. I use to be a member but not anymore, for a couple reasons: 

   

• Foremost - Sportsmans groups fighting other sportsman is just nuts!
   
• NYB represents less than 2% of Bowhunters in New York - so they are not "the voice" of all bowhunters.
   
• They tend to take credit for many things that were really made possible by New York Bowhunters & Field Archers (NYFAB) back in the late 1940's. Long before NYB came along. 
  

But it is the constant alienation of other sportsman that bothers me the most with NYB. 

IMO - the Archery Season changed forever when the Hollis Allen Compound designed for "Disabled" archers was allowed in the archery season. And the reality is.. the crossbow has no advantage over today's compounds.

well i have to say this about sums it up, well said sir!

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think allowing the crossbow is about recruitment and retention in the hunting fraternity - and we NEED BOTH.

I won't slam NYB because they do good things. I use to be a member but not anymore, for a couple reasons: 

   

• Foremost - Sportsmans groups fighting other sportsman is just nuts!
  
• NYB represents less than 2% of Bowhunters in New York - so they are not "the voice" of all bowhunters.
  
• They tend to take credit for many things that were really made possible by New York Bowhunters & Field Archers (NYFAB) back in the late 1940's. Long before NYB came along. 
  

  But it is the constant alienation of other sportsman that bothers me the most with NYB. 

IMO - the Archery Season changed forever when the Hollis Allen Compound designed for "Disabled" archers was allowed in the archery season. And the reality is.. the crossbow has no advantage over today's compounds.

1. Sportsmans groups(crossgun/ML) attacking other groups(archery) is nuts.  NYB is doing nothing but defense.

2. NYB is the voice of most bowhunters until you can find me a better representative.

3. Like what? If they didn't make it they have maintained it for future generations.

I dont hear crossbow supporters calling vertical bow hunters criminals or poachers. I have heard NYB (and other crossbow detractors) refer to crossbows as the "weapon of choice for poachers" though.

[Doewhacker]

No the crossbow guys just call everyone else elitist's if they don't agree with them and do nothing to improve the sport for for anyone but themselves....

[WNYBuckHunter]

No the crossbow guys just call everyone else elitist's if they don't agree with them and do nothing to improve the sport for for anyone but themselves....

Thats not the same as accusing one of being a criminal. Calling someone an elitist if they are spouting statements like NYB does is only calling the kettle black. Most of the arguments I hear coming from NYB boil down to one thing "I dont want to share bow season with anyone that isnt as good as I think I am". How exactly do crossbow supporters "do nothing to improve the sport for anyone but themselves"? In NY, so far, crossbows are not legal to hunt with, why would there be very many, if any, crossbow organizations here? Are you insinuating that those of us whom support the use of crossbows in NY do nothing to try and better the sport in which we partake? If so, you are dead nuts wrong. Just because one doesnt belong to NYB, or believe in every single thing that they stand for, does not mean they dont do their part for the betterment of the sport of hunting and archery.

Now, do I think NYB has done some good things in the past and continue to do so today, sure, but there are major issues that I just do not agree with them on. They support an early ML season to take place before bow starts for crying out loud.

[burmjohn]

Maybe huntingny.com should officially open its "CrossBow" forum...  Or should there be two, one called "CrossGun" and one "CrossBow"? 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sounds like a plan!  ;D

[Doewhacker]

WNY, You don't need to twist the truth, there are no crossbow orginizations out there if there were maybe they would gain more support. I could care less about crossbows, I have stated that before, I will still be able to hunt succesfully with my bow and will not hunt with a crossbow. I never was dogging crossbow supporters just pointing out the fact that there are no other groups that are out there and that you all seem to want the world with out trying to do something for every one. The point is NYB is the only archery org that is attempting to accomplish anything untill there is another option they will have my support. Again I do not support 100% of what they come out with but at least I acknowledge what they do accomplish.

I have been called an anti before just because I don't agree with some of the stuff your side does, that is the cycle.. name calling and anger because the two sides can't agree on every thing. Some one needs to extend the olive branch and I think it should be the new kid on the block, crossbow supporters. Prove to me that you guys care about any thing but getting the crossbow in and I will sign up to help you out. Go ahead organize a group and make it happen, of course that would mean there would be less time to bash NYB on the internet though.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im not twisting anything, and Im not calling you an anti. Im not calling NYB members antis. What I am doing is calling it how I see it, and Im sure Im not the only one that sees it that way. The biggest complaint I have with NYB is their claim to represent ALL bowhunters in NY while they maintain a membership of what, 2 or 3 thousand? Thats not even a drop in the bucket, so how can they make those claims, or should I say, why shouldnt they be called out on it?

If there was an organization that supported all forms of archers in NY, without the elitist attitudes, Id sign up in a heartbeat. Honestly, I wouldnt join a crossbow organization that threw stones at vertical bow hunters either. If I had the time to dedicate to creating such a group, Id do it. Unfortunately, like most people, I have to work for a living. 

[Doewhacker]

It turns out I actually agree with you, who knew. Maybe some one who reads this will have the time to start some thing up. I know you and I won't be the ones heading it up but there has to be some group of guys that has the time. If there was a group, even with some veiws that I don't agree with, I would join it. Any thing that betters the sport of archery and hunting is ok with me.

[Chevy]

Just because a person does not pay dues does not mean they don't support NYB positions. There are roughly 200,000 bowhunters and I expect 95% support NYB. You are probably in that 5%.

It's like politics. I don't agree with everything the republicans do but its better than being a democrat.

 

[Doc]

Maybe huntingny.com should officially open its "CrossBow" forum...  Or should there be two, one called "CrossGun" and one "CrossBow"? 

That would be a great idea.

[Doc]

What percent of the total gun owners across the U.S. belong to the NRA? Do we try to discredit the NRA because the overwhelming majority of gun owners are merely wallflowers who prefer to reap the benefits of the NRA influence without the committment of membership? Pretty much most of us don't. I'm not sure why we think we should apply a different standard to bowhunting organizations. You're darned right the NYB speaks for bowhunters just as much as the NRA speaks for gun owners and until some other organization comes along who is willing to stand up for bowhunters rights and issues, I will continue to recognize them as the voice of the NYS bowhunter. Yes we have those that take some kind of weird pride in standing outside looking in and think that the issues of bowhunters are better served by each of us going off in our own separate directions, totally unorganized. To them I say you have some other groups that like that kind of thinking and it plays well with their agenda.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Just because a person does not pay dues does not mean they don't support NYB positions. There are roughly 200,000 bowhunters and I expect 95% support NYB. You are probably in that 5%.

It's like politics. I don't agree with everything the republicans do but its better than being a democrat.

Id be willing to put a rather hefty sum of money to say you are 100% wrong on that 95%. Id even be willing to bet that you arent even remotely close.

[WNYBuckHunter]

What percent of the total gun owners across the U.S. belong to the NRA? Do we try to discredit the NRA because the overwhelming majority of gun owners are merely wallflowers who prefer to reap the benefits of the NRA influence without the committment of membership? Pretty much most of us don't. I'm not sure why we think we should apply a different standard to bowhunting organizations. You're darned right the NYB speaks for bowhunters just as much as the NRA speaks for gun owners and until some other organization comes along who is willing to stand up for bowhunters rights and issues, I will continue to recognize them as the voice of the NYS bowhunter. Yes we have those that take some kind of weird pride in standing outside looking in and think that the issues of bowhunters are better served by each of us going off in our own separate directions, totally unorganized. To them I say you have some other groups that like that kind of thinking and it plays well with their agenda.

Doc

The problem with your NYB/NRA comparison, is that the NRA does not attack law abiding gun owners that do or dont belong to their ranks. NYB regularly goes after other sportsmen groups and even other archers. Like I said, if NY had a group that was there to represent all forms of archery, and did not have the elitist attitude displayed by NYB, Id be a card carrying member, as I am with the NRA. 

[SteveB]

Just because a person does not pay dues does not mean they don't support NYB positions. There are roughly 200,000 bowhunters and I expect 95% support NYB. You are probably in that 5%.

It's like politics. I don't agree with everything the republicans do but its better than being a democrat.

Around me I doubt they could garner 50% support - and that is generous.

[Doc]

The problem with your NYB/NRA comparison, is that the NRA does not attack law abiding gun owners that do or dont belong to their ranks. NYB regularly goes after other sportsmen groups and even other archers. Like I said, if NY had a group that was there to represent all forms of archery, and did not have the elitist attitude displayed by NYB, Id be a card carrying member, as I am with the NRA. 

I was referring to your comment on the numbers of bowhunters that are actual members of NYB and why that is supposed to indicate that they have to right to say that they represent NYS bowhunters ..... Specifically the line that says,"The biggest complaint I have with NYB is their claim to represent ALL bowhunters in NY while they maintain a membership of what, 2 or 3 thousand? Thats not even a drop in the bucket, so how can they make those claims, or should I say, why shouldnt they be called out on it?" As I have indicated, the NRA does this with gun owners all the time, and rightfully so.

If you have other nits with them such as a crossbow support requirement that is something other than the point you made about the numbers. Frankly I think there is always something that people can use as an excuse not to become organized. I have heard that kind of nonsense used against the NRA. a single issue of disagreement comes up and they are ready to dump the whole organization. That's a pretty tough standard for any organization to measure up against. There is plenty about the NRA that I could find fault with and stomp my feet and  dump my whole membership. That would be stupid, but I could do it ....... but I don't. I fully understand that the little petty beef here and there that I may have on some comparatively insignificant issues is not worth dumping an organized approach to all of the things that I really have in common in terms of safeguarding those things that I hold important.

One thing I have noticed is that nobody has addressed the reply that I posted that detailed the accomplishments and activities of the NYB. I know it is a bit inconvenient and doesn't fit in well with the "single issue" objection to the NYB, but it really should kind of put things into perspective for those that would take a single issue and use that as a rallying cry against the whole organization. It might serve you well to go back and review that list and see how your crossbow issue stands up against all that the NYB has done.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

When did I ever say I have one single issue that I disagree with them about?

Look Doc, I know that you think that NYB speaks for every bow hunter in NY, thats your opinion, but your opinion on this is not fact. This is why I do my part with letters and emails to my legislators about issues that I agree or disagree with. I also encourage others to do the same. It seems to me, from hearing comments at some of the meetings and seeing as the x-bow bill is all but law at this point, that the tactic of contacting legislators is working. 

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

Oh, and yes, I and others have said that NYB has done some good things in the past and they are currently working on others.

[Chevy]

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

Show me proof of these so called attacks before you slander an organization that has done so much good.  I'm sure whatever you come up with will be defensive action rather than attacks.

Your lone objective to push the crossgun agenda has clouded your judgment unfortunately.

[WNYBuckHunter]

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

Show me proof of these so called attacks before you slander an organization that has done so much good.  I'm sure whatever you come up with will be defensive action rather than attacks.

Your lone objective to push the crossgun agenda has clouded your judgment unfortunately.

Oh please, the whole crossbow issue is in itself an attack on fellow sportsmen by NYB, theres nothing defensive about it. Ill waste my time giving you about as much proof of anything as you have ever offered up to anyone that has asked you a direct question.

[Chevy]

That's what I thought. No proof. Just blowing alot of smoke.

[finfeathr]

I am new on here, so I will try to tread lightly. Here is my take on this subject:

We, as hunters, should be ashamed of ourselves..I have said it before, and I'll say it again...we will eat our own young.

WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER AS SPORTSMEN!

In all fairness, what difference does it make what you take game with? This crap all starts with one group feeling that "thier" season will be infringed upon. In this case, traditional archers are feeling that the woods would be over-run with crossbow wielding fanatics. Let's be realistic..that isn't going to happen. The people that would buy a crossbow and hunt with it are already hunters that passed the sportsman education test, and maybe have an interest in a new choice of implement. The crossbow does not have a more sgnificant effective range than a compound, so the real issue is the ability to take an animal without drawing the bow.....so what...you could do that in a blind also, and I don't see anyone calling for outlawing hunting blinds. If you feel that strongly about using traditional archery equipment, then do so,,,,it should make the accomplishment of harvesting a deer that much more enjoyable, knowing you had an easier option, but did it the"hard"way.

I have been hunting for a long time, and have heard alot of different whining sessions through the years...Some hunters think that compound bows are unfair also.., some think that tree stands are unfair, some feel that baiting is unfair,[illegal in NY, but acceptable in some other states], some think preserves should be outlawed, some think that waterfowling should not be allwed during an archery season,etc, etc, and on and on....

The issue is, and always has been, we need to stick together and protect our rights as a WHOLE. Archery guys should support crossbows, slingshots,sharp sticks, or any other "primative" implement within the respective season. Just choose to use whatever one YOU are comfortable with. I am pretty sure there won't be a guy with a crossbow perched in every tree.....

We need more hunters with a voice, not less, or worse, a dwindling number who bickers endlessly amongst it's own ranks..the anti's are using this "divide and conquer" metality, and it works, obviously.

If using a crossbow will get a few more young people interested in the outdoors, and get thier butts off the couch,and thier cell phones, and playstations, then we should all support it. As our numbers dwindle, we have less and less voice in the political arena, and when our voice is too meek from infighting and squabbling over petty crap to be heard, or taken seriously, we will lose it all.....

Rich

[Chevy]

If using a crossbow will get a few more young people interested in the outdoors, and get thier butts off the couch,and thier cell phones, and playstations, then we should all support it.

Rich

Rich, young people don't need a crossgun to participate in archery season. Contact any NYB member or go to any archery shop and I'm sure they will devote time and energy to get that person pointed in the right direction with archery equipment. 

If you are suggesting no special seasons at all and everyone use what they want, that is a bad idea.

If you want to use a crossgun in archery season then I want to use my pistol during muzzleloader season.   

[Doc]

When did I ever say I have one single issue that I disagree with them about?

Look Doc, I know that you think that NYB speaks for every bow hunter in NY, thats your opinion, but your opinion on this is not fact. This is why I do my part with letters and emails to my legislators about issues that I agree or disagree with. I also encourage others to do the same. It seems to me, from hearing comments at some of the meetings and seeing as the x-bow bill is all but law at this point, that the tactic of contacting legislators is working. 

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

Oh, and yes, I and others have said that NYB has done some good things in the past and they are currently working on others.

By the way, speaking of effectiveness, you might want to take note of the fact that the legislation as passed did indeed get changed to exclude crossbows from the bowhunting seasons. You don't suppose that that happened just by accident do you?

I don't care how small the organization is, they are the only ones who have the lobbying mechanism in place. They are the ones who fight for all the goodies that you so eagerly take advantage of. Go back and review that list of NYB accomplishments that I posted. How many of those did you write letters about? How much of ANY of that can you individually take credit for? Yes, by golly those people did speak for you and all bowhunters, and through a forum that actually has some meaning and effect, (not some individual lone e-mail). And yes you and all the NYS bowhunters have been very quick to take advantage of those things that they spoke up for on your behalf.

Doc

[Doc]

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

I forgot to address this crock that you laid out there with no explaination. I guess you are still talking about the crossbow issue. First of all, there has been no attack on sportsmen. There is a well publicized stance against adding crossbows into bow seasons. This is a stance based on the fact that NYB believes that crossbows are inappropriate weapons for an archery season. Wether or not you agree, the NYB has the right to reach that opinion. That's not an attack on anybody. You might call it an attack on crossbows .....lol.

If you're talking about muzzleloaders, I think you have things a bit reversed. It was the Muzzleloaders who were the aggressors in that issue. And, in fact if that is your allegation, you are a bit out of date since the NYB (much to my dismay) has been working in cooperation with the NYMLA on a recent proposal create early season opportunities for primitive muzzleloaders. That doesn't sound too much like an organization that is out attacking other sportsmen.

So my view of your allegations is that they are just some more of the continuing baseless lashing out at the NYB, an attitude that I find totally confusing coming from any bowhunter.

Doc