How to train a young bird dog

[RangerClay]

Here is my new hunting dog Lucy.  She is a pure bred English Setter.

 

(I tried to post pictures of Lucy but my photos from the Realtree Forums are apparently not worthy here.  I get a You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community.)

 

So Anyway.........

Lucy's dad is a 3 time field trial champion from the famous Grouse Ridge Kennels in Oxford NY.  Because her dad had an "indiscretion" with a female setter with no papers I was able to pick her up for the incredible price of $25.

 

Lucy will be 6 months old on the 15th and she spends her days pointing EVERYTHING in my yard.  My problem is that I have no idea how to harness all of that genetic skill and get her pointing the important things.  My dad had a Viszla when I was kid and I never saw it trained.

 

Can any of you recommend some sort of training tool, video, Youtube page, or anything that can assist me with training her.  She is so talented and I don't want to screw her up by doing this all wrong.  My little girl will be 12 this fall and I would like to make Lucy a great grouser.

 

Thanks, Joe

[Doewhacker]

I recomend getting some vid's and books to learn. Here is a great organization (although your dog has no papers and wouldn't be allowed to test).. http://www.navhda.org/ There are a few chapters in NY and most are more than happy to help a hunter out.

 

You might want to try and find a gun dog trainer in your area too, most will give you a lesson on where to begin at least even if you don't want to work with a trainer long term.

 

I am up to three bird dogs now, to say I was bit by the bug is an understatement..lol

[Doewhacker]

Also you may want to ask the breeder, all of the ones I know are happy to help.

[RangerClay]

Also you may want to ask the breeder, all of the ones I know are happy to help.

 

The breeder is 3 hours south of where I live, so he probably won't be able to help.

 

Can you guys recommend a good set of videos?  I see there are some shorts on Youtube.

[Doewhacker]

http://www.gundogsonline.com/ A good site for you.

 

Here is a basic training list for puppy's

 

Whoa...it means stand there dont move, you add in distraction and birds as the dog progresses then go the field

Sit/Stay

Come or here with both voice and whistle commands

Heel

Leash obedience

Quartering the wind or covering the field

Playing fetch..later on I do force fetch and return to heel when the dog is ready.

 

During this time I also introduce the dog to gun fire, water, other dogs, e-collar, birds, tracking.

 

Obedience with repetition and praise is the biggest thing to teach a bird dog.

 

 

 

 

[PREDATE]

I've never trained a bird dog, but we used to raise ringnecks and bobwhites back in the mid 90's. We did it mostly to feed our hawks, but would invite some friends over to get their dogs on some birds. We would tuck the birds head under their wing and they would fall asleep. After the field had a dozen birds they would then bring the dogs up and by that time the birds would have woke up.

 They aren't hard to raise from chicks and the ones that get away do survive in the wild. I hear pheasants cackling and quail whistling up there every year. Just my .02

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Intoroduction to gun fire....well there is an all or nothing result. My last Springer the breeder/trainer had me start with a kids cap gun  in the other room while the pup was eating. everything is ramped up from there based on the reaction. he never flinched through the entire process. My wife on the other hand was constantly diving behind the couch..lol.

[Early]

You make a good point: Dogs can be much easier to train than wives!

Since I always used, "NO!" to stop bad behavior, I never used "Whoa" as a command.

Remember: A dog is a dog, not a hi-tech robot. A dog that is a bit hard-headed and mistake prone can still be a great hunting dog. If you want perfection, go buy a remote controlled electric dog.

[Doewhacker]

You make a good point: Dogs can be much easier to train than wives!

Since I always used, "NO!" to stop bad behavior, I never used "Whoa" as a command.

Remember: A dog is a dog, not a hi-tech robot. A dog that is a bit hard-headed and mistake prone can still be a great hunting dog. If you want perfection, go buy a remote controlled electric dog.

 

 

I don't use No because I have kids, I use either leave it or eh eh.

[Doewhacker]

Intoroduction to gun fire....well there is an all or nothing result. My last Springer the breeder/trainer had me start with a kids cap gun  in the other room while the pup was eating. everything is ramped up from there based on the reaction. he never flinched through the entire process. My wife on the other hand was constantly diving behind the couch..lol.

 

Yes there are a lot of differing opinions on how to do it, some start with pots and pans banging together while they eat. I found the best for me is to start with a starter pistol from a distance while the dog is chasing a flushed bird. Gradually work closer and then start over with guns. You will know pretty quick if care is needed for this process while watching the dogs reaction.

[Doewhacker]

For training birds Pidgeons are ok for most dogs, they can be found for cheap or trapped and shot all year which is a plus. This year with my new pup I have a bird pen built and as luck would have it my brother just bought a house that has a bird pen so I will have room for more birds there. It can be a hastle finding some one who sells game birds some times, which is why I built a pen, now I can either hatch my own or buy in larger numbers.

 

Speaking of which I need a few for the new pup.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doe, you buying Chukkars?  When my Springer was 3-4 months old he had a hard time mouthing a bird as large as a pheasant. The chukkars seemed to work better and the breeder I bought him from just happen to run a shooting preserve. Since I had one of her babies and often bought birds from her she would call me after they had a big hunt ont he preserve and let me come take some left overs for practice.

[Doewhacker]

Doe, you buying Chukkars?  When my Springer was 3-4 months old he had a hard time mouthing a bird as large as a pheasant. The chukkars seemed to work better and the breeder I bought him from just happen to run a shooting preserve. Since I had one of her babies and often bought birds from her she would call me after they had a big hunt ont he preserve and let me come take some left overs for practice.

 

Chukkars or Pidgeons yes, I'll pass on Quail as they don't fly far enough and Pheasant's are a bit much for most young pups to start on. My goal is to get some Pidgeons and once they have young ones I can work on a recall set up. It makes is soooo nice to have birds fly and return to their coop. It would be even nicer if I had a big field as my yard but down the road will have to suffice.

[mike rossi]

The breeder is 3 hours south of where I live, so he probably won't be able to help.

 

Can you guys recommend a good set of videos?  I see there are some shorts on Youtube.

 

IMO, No, I have not seen any. However, the retriever vids & manuals tend to be better than the bird dog material. Although some I would never follow, others do have bits & pieces of good info - but it would be your burden to connect the dots. You are asking a much more difficult question than you think. Best thing to do is get in person instruction - but many trainers talk a real good talk but cant train or don't hunt in everyday situations. Some say check references - I say hunt with the person you are taking advice from or contracting to train your dog. Don't fall for excuses such as "I am working a young dog today" or I spend so much time training other peoples dogs I don't put much time into my own dogs". Believe me dog trainers & breeders are skilled liars... They should invest as much time understanding dogs & hunting as they do making up excuses & sales pitches. That isn't restricted to the so-called pro or commercial trainer, the so called amateur / hobby trainers at the clubs can be quite creative as well.

 

I have been working on videos and books for some time and it just isn't a subject that lends well to instruction. If I eventually figure out how to produce something useful I will publish it. Its just easier to finish someone's dog than it is to teach the person to train their dog. Problem is the regulatory laws make it difficult to run a training business. Therefore there will be less & less trainers, especially those who actually know what they are doing.

 

So I would say draw info from various sources, but use your own judgment on how good each bite of info is.

[jjb4900]

"Wing and Shot" is a good training book, been around for a long time.........simple obedience is a good place to start, because the best hunting dog in the world is useless if it doesn't listen.

[PSEcopenhagenHUNTER]

Call up Grouse Ridge and ask if they could send a well narrated video of the pups in the field.  I've been up to the kennel a few times with the owner's kids, the dogs are pretty impressive and 25 bucks is cheap!!!  

[mike rossi]

"Wing and Shot" is a good training book, been around for a long time.........simple obedience is a good place to start, because the best hunting dog in the world is useless if it doesn't listen.

Might be a good book, I never read it. Book has sold a lot of copies, but are you familiar with the author? Bob Whele, pronounced "whaley" was from Henderson NY. He died about 10 years ago at a ripe old age. His English pointers were sold under the name elew- his last name reversed - which is how a lot of kennels are named.

 

Whele  is reported to have a back ground in genetics - which sounds more important to breeding bird dogs than it actually is... The other thing about Whele is he was a BILLIONAIRRE who inherited most of his wealth when he was in his twenties.

 

Training hunting dogs is hard outdoor work. You can BS people, but you cant BS a dog... Not the line of work for the rich. Whele may have been the only billionaire bird dog trainer, but not the only wealthy one. Some of these rich  guys hire trainers - some of those hired are good others are not. I never met whele, but others I met didn't work, didn't hunt, and certainly couldn't train a dog to drink water...

[jjb4900]

Might be a good book, I never read it. Book has sold a lot of copies, but are you familiar with the author? Bob Whele, pronounced "whaley" was from Henderson NY. He died about 10 years ago at a ripe old age. His English pointers were sold under the name elew- his last name reversed - which is how a lot of kennels are named.

 

Whele  is reported to have a back ground in genetics - which sounds more important to breeding bird dogs than it actually is... The other thing about Whele is he was a BILLIONAIRRE who inherited most of his wealth when he was in his twenties.

 

Training hunting dogs is hard outdoor work. You can BS people, but you cant BS a dog... Not the line of work for the rich. Whele may have been the only billionaire bird dog trainer, but not the only wealthy one. Some of these rich  guys hire trainers - some of those hired are good others are not. I never met whele, but others I met didn't work, didn't hunt, and certainly couldn't train a dog to drink water...

I bought the book way back when and found it pretty helpful for someone who had no experience training a dog, it was a good starting point.......I'm sure you could go broke from buying books and DVD's from all the "experts" out there.

[agross]

Another good website is gundogforum.com.  I just recently got a German Shorthaired pointer (my avatar pic) and he is 4 months now.  A lot of good advice on there as to books, dvd's, theories on training when to start, how to start. 

 

Read, read, read.

[crappyice]

I second doewacker's post. Find a NAVHDA near you. I brought my Brittany to the chapter near Stewart and they were awesome and so good with ME! The dog was great from the start - I needed the training. My only suggestion would be to play lots of hide and seek games with bird wings. Keep dog in the house. Tie a wing to a string off a pole and drag it around your yard- hide it and take dog to the start point with some pulled feathers. See how well your pup stays on the scent-so cool to watch a dog with a great nose.

I started the "gunfire" with load claps while he was eating, then moved to a muffled starter pistol while he was distracted chasing a ball or such. Gradually I increased the sound and the proximity to the pup.

Good luck and enjoy the journey - take lots of video of first hunts - I never did and SO regret it.

Edited September 14, 2013 by crappyice

[wheelieman]

Depends on what you plan on hunting with it, You should start with the basics first, keep the retrieving up but short sessions and make it fun,  2-3 retrieves, for pheasant start dragging a cloth bumper in zig zags first with him chasing then with him in the house then bring him out to work on is nose work, use the pheasant scent, keep it fun and keep the sessions short, dont ever let him chew on a bumper and always reward by petting,i dont like treat training,  Keep it fun and keep the sessions short, let him be a pet but make sure you do the basics first, Sit, here, down, get him to walk at heel and work on these all the time but make it fun, a correction collar and a leash and you will get the basics in a week or so, but make it fun for him and give him lots of praise, 

[mike rossi]

Here is an unfortunate example of what I have been alluding to. If you view this video at 2:26 you see a spinone , a pointing breed being trained improperly and the issues with overuse and improper handing of "libbies" (incubator hatched game birds or pigeons which are released or "planted"). If the OP took his setter which is pointing flies and butterflys 24/7 and implemented this training style his pup would degrade not improve. No polite way to put it - this handlers clinic is the blind leading the blind... All too common in the universe of dog training...

 

http://youtu.be/vmh4DyX30Mw

 

[Doewhacker]

Here is an unfortunate example of what I have been alluding to. If you view this video at 2:26 you see a spinone , a pointing breed being trained improperly and the issues with overuse and improper handing of "libbies" (incubator hatched game birds or pigeons which are released or "planted"). If the OP took his setter which is pointing flies and butterflys 24/7 and implemented this training style his pup would degrade not improve. No polite way to put it - this handlers clinic is the blind leading the blind... All too common in the universe of dog training...

http://youtu.be/vmh4DyX30Mw

I take it you don't know the trainer in that vid? Dave has countless dogs trained to the highest level under his belt along with being a guide in New Hampshire every year on top of countless hunting trips on his own. He also breeds DK short hairs and tests them in the JHV system along with the Navhda tests.

That Spinone in the vid is an older dog that was never exposed to birds. I find spinonies a lost cause from years of poor breeding but that's just my opinion.

And last but not least that is a training day not a handlers clinic, two different things in the Navhda world.

[BucksnBroads]

I don't know if your near didn't look to far into it but there is a vet in Newark valley and they train gun dogs. Well they have it posted I personally have not seen any of the dogs or their training practices but it may be something to look into if your nearby. If you need more info on them let me know ill look up the contact info for you and help out best I can. Or they may know someone in your area too. Best of luck.

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[jjb4900]

I second doewacker's post. Find a NAVHDA near you. I brought my Brittany to the chapter near Stewart and they were awesome and so good with ME! The dog was great from the start - I needed the training. My only suggestion would be to play lots of hide and seek games with bird wings. Keep dog in the house. Tie a wing to a string off a pole and drag it around your yard- hide it and take dog to the start point with some pulled feathers. See how well your pup stays on the scent-so cool to watch a dog with a great nose.

I started the "gunfire" with load claps while he was eating, then moved to a muffled starter pistol while he was distracted chasing a ball or such. Gradually I increased the sound and the proximity to the pup.

Good luck and enjoy the journey - take lots of video of first hunts - I never did and SO regret it.

you pointed out a very important way of introducing a dog to gunfire...........never start with the real sound of gunfire and always make sure the pup is preoccupied when introducing him to the sounds. If you have a muzzleloader, you can use that with just a primer if you don't have a starter pistol.