A New Hunting Season

[Rookie]

What would it take to open up a new hunting season, more specifically a dove season? As many of you may already know, Iowa recently became the 42nd state to open up a dove season. So why not NY?

I know there was a survey sent out to 5,000 NY small game hunters and the results were pretty sad  (almost half didn't even answer).

 

So what is preventing the there from being a dove season here? What would it take to open one up?

 

And yes, this is my first post, HELLO to all!!!

[Lawdwaz]

Welcome Rookie!

 

A member here has been very informative in the push for a dove season in NYS.  His name and handle "Mike Rossi"  Here is a link to his profile:

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/user/1948-mike-rossi/

 

Go back and read some of his posts and note at the bottom of them he has a link to some information on dove hunting here in NYS.  I've hunted them in PA quite a few times and would love to hunt them here.

 

 

[Rookie]

Thanks! He seems very well informed and I "liked" the facebook page that he is apart of.

 

It seems silly to me that there is no established dove season in NY. I wish there was more that I could do, other than post on a forum.

[azhuntress]

Hey Rookie!  Nice post!  I've often wondered why NY doesn't have a dove season.  Hopefully someday they'll get with the program and let us hunt them.  I know there sure isn't a shortage of them as they are everywhere!!!!!

I hunt them in PA and enjoy eating them.  I marinate them in Italian dressing during the day, wrap them in bacon and them cook them on the grill.  Yum, yum good!
 

[Lawdwaz]

Tasty little birds they are.....................

 

 

[mike rossi]

Clarification:

 

It was NOT a survey dedicated to dove hunting. It was ONE QUESTION about dove hunting that was asked as part of a broader survey about all small game. The DECs conclusion that the reason for the lack of strong interest in dove hunting is because NY hunters have not had prior exposure to dove hunting was arrived at from ONE additional question asked several years later on a different survey, which asked hunters if they have ever hunted doves in another state? As we discussed on here recently, regarding the antler restriction survey, questionnaires  normally gather information with a series of questions not a single yes or no question. However asking one or two questions was deemed sufficient to evaluate interest in dove hunting ...

Edited December 17, 2013 by mike rossi

[Rookie]

They sure do look delicious. azhuntress, I have been looking further into trekking down to PA to hunt them as well next season. Do you, or anyone for that matter, know of any good that are relatively close to the Albany, NY area (Northeast PA area)?

 

Lawdwaz, looks like youve had some pretty successful hunts in the past!! Where is your favorite place to go?

 

Mike, thanks for the clarification. That's pretty sad that the DEC determined whether or not to have a dove season based upon a single question in a small game survey.

[mike rossi]

They sure do look delicious. azhuntress, I have been looking further into trekking down to PA to hunt them as well next season. Do you, or anyone for that matter, know of any good that are relatively close to the Albany, NY area (Northeast PA area)?

 

Lawdwaz, looks like youve had some pretty successful hunts in the past!! Where is your favorite place to go?

 

Mike, thanks for the clarification. That's pretty sad that the DEC determined whether or not to have a dove season based upon a single question in a small game survey.

 

About the bold face type above: The DEC did not make any determination on a dove season. They are not allowed by NY state law to designate any species as game, that must be done through the legislative process. If the law is amended to designate an animal as a game species, then the DEC can set a season.

 

The DEC sometimes does make "proposals". A recent example is the proposal to ban the taking of swine. I am not sure exactly the reasons, but the difference is in 1) swine are not native and deleterious 2) some legal difference in environmental conservation regulations and environmental conservation statutory laws. Apparently, the DEC can set some "regulations", but statutory law is passed in the legislative process. I am fairly certain the DEC can recommend a dove season, but I am not sure. In the records of Fred Neff, a long time advocate of a NY dove season, he has a statement from a DEC employee who indicated that the DEC does not get involved in highly controversial issues. That (controversial) would describe dove hunting, mostly because of the dove is a favorite money-maker for the HSUS and also because of some religious confusion, an article we will be posting on face book in the near future - please like, share, forward, and cross-post it and all our articles...

 

Ironically even though the DEC web page titled why don't we hunt doves in NY indicates the reason is low interest, the reason they created that same page was undoubtedly because they receive a constant string of inquiries about why...

 

I don't know if nowdays the DEC will propose a dove season, but I doubt they would oppose one. I don't believe in NY state something like this could be petitioned to be put on the ballot during general elections, which is a good thing because we could not win a numbers game. Several dove bills have been introduced over the last 20 years, but none of them have ever been voted on. In 2010 senate bill 6968 was introduced by Senator John DiFransico, a republican representing the Syracuse area at the suggestion of Fred Neff, an Onadago County resident involved with that county sportsmens federation and in the past with the NYSCC before a personality conflict caused a fallout. Neff had pursued a dove bill in NY for 22 years. The bill was cosponsored by Patty  Richie a Oswego republican, Rick Valesky, a democrat from I think the Herkimer area, and some other rebublican, cant remember. There was no assembly companion bill but I did speak to Bill Magee, a democrat in the assembly who represents the Rome area who told me "he is seriously considering introducing a dove bill in the assembly". S6968 expired without being voted on in the environmental conservation committee, much less the entire floor. I called Senator Grisanti, who is the senate chairman of the en-con committee and spoke to his aide. The dude, a kid who sounded like in his twenties, gave me all this BS that you cant eat doves and we only heard from the antis about this and by the end of the conversation he implied that I had convinced him and he would rely the conversation to good ole Mark. Well Mark had ample opportunity now to contact me and/or sponsor his own dove bill - he wasted no time with his crossbow bill, even held a town hall meeting which other lawmakers attended and were visibly nervous about being filmed while on the clock chewing the fat with a bunch of retired cops and firefighters about crossbows - check it out its on you tube. Grisanti however, took his time and was nonchalant about the long meeting.

 

So what we need is a bill in BOTH houses and with BIPARTISAN sponsorship. It cant be a republican bill or a democrat bill and that applies across both houses... We need the DEC to know enough of us want this. We need to let the entire legistlature and governor know as well... We will be outnumbered and the bill will be opposed so we need to write factually correct letters and to newspapers but only in rebuttal to antis. There are some of the things you can do!

[covert]

 

So what is preventing the there from being a dove season here? What would it take to open one up?

 

 

If I were to hazard a guess it would be because not enough people care.  I know I have zero interest in hunting doves, and therefore no interest in lobbying for hunting them.  I grew up on the farm shooting pigeons out of the silo and haymow and doves just remind me too much of those filthy old things to ever bring myself to want to eat them.

[G-Man]

The big problem is we have no right to hunt in this state, and no game commission, we don't even have a deer season or any season next year till its voted upon, we need to push to get the right to hunt put in NY constitution and then split the Dec into a game commission that has power to set the seasons, weapons used, and amount and type of game. We ignore this but the day is comming when all the liberals in the state will be in power and bam...all our hunting and fishing will be gone, and it won't come back....

[mike rossi]

The big problem is we have no right to hunt in this state, and no game commission, we don't even have a deer season or any season next year till its voted upon, we need to push to get the right to hunt put in NY constitution and then split the Dec into a game commission that has power to set the seasons, weapons used, and amount and type of game. We ignore this but the day is comming when all the liberals in the state will be in power and bam...all our hunting and fishing will be gone, and it won't come back....

 

What do you mean  by Game Commission? There is a citizen board, which the members of are appointed by elected politicians in NY, and the NY Farm Bureau and the NYS Conservation Council get one rep a piece on the board automatically. Is that what you are talking about? This system doesn't get as much credit it is owed for the sorry state of  conservation.

 

I would support right to hunt legislation which has been enacted in several states, but that wouldn't have a bearing on what species are declared game and have hunting seasons.

 

The DEC is not going to cater to the sportsmen anyway, that's a pipe dream. After the biological considerations, the social decisions will not disportionately favor the sportsmen. That's political and that's what we got right now. If the DEC was controlling the shots I don't think it would be what you think it would be. Non hunters are increasingly engaged in conservation and there is a formal movement to increase that. Furthermore the majority people being trained as wildlife biologists are no longer males with exposure to hunting. The typical wildlife student is female, urban, and has never had any exposure to hunting or hunters. The hiring practices of state and federal governments also favor females, minorities, veterans, and handicapped persons, (the so called protected groups) under equal opportunity laws.

 

As a group, we sportsmen are not a progressive culture, but we are facing a changing world. There are also a lot of changes in management philosophies, I am not going to get into it. The public at large is more engaged than ever, and to be frank, they always had that right. They are outspending us, and in a few short years will have outspent even our 75 year head start.  I just realized I have been typing this for a while, and what started as a post about dove hunting  diverted to the premises, ideals, and desires  of the NY sportsmen who have been running the show and have failed or have not tried to establish dove hunting.

Edited December 19, 2013 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

If I were to hazard a guess it would be because not enough people care.  I know I have zero interest in hunting doves, and therefore no interest in lobbying for hunting them.  I grew up on the farm shooting pigeons out of the silo and haymow and doves just remind me too much of those filthy old things to ever bring myself to want to eat them.

 

I have known few farm kids who were picky eaters but whatevey... Eating that fresh grain out of that silo makes for some good eatin rock doves... You all want to eat them swine, though? An animal synonomous with filth and at so low populations in NY few people have seen them - that's the way the dec wants to keep it by the way, some aren't connecting the dots...

 

In contrast  the mourning dove is superior tablefare and one of the most abundant species in NY and across North America. So why the interest in pigs, that number in the dozens and not doves which transient populations are measured in the millions?

 

Fact is, although the dec is correct that NY hunters do not have any experience or tradition with doves, they are the most hunted, most bagged, and most eaten - more than whitetails, certainly more than harvested swine, throughout the USA...

 

Every forum has its following, whether its an opinion or a product. This forum is heavy into deer and killing big crap in general, expirtating coyotes, etc... which happens to be par for the course over NY state. However, there are a sizable number of NY hunters who pursue small game who are interested in doves. It is up to those interested hunters to drive the season, the majority average has not come through for 22 years or more... Our plate is full and we have no room to entertain the desires of the NYSCC et al who have not, and will not help us...

[phade]

Not having a dove season is a letdown, coming from VA, where dove season was the first season of the "hunting" seasons each late summer/fall.

 

While my life has gotten much busier and I can only make enough time to chase whitetails and a few days for turkey, I'd probably squeak out a half-morning to get a plate-full of dove each year if it were legal.

 

I support a dove season 100%. It's a great way for kids to get involved in hunting and shooting and quite frankly, makes them a better shot imo.

[josephmrtn]

I would support it, we have loads of em around here

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[Fletch]

I would be all for it! Never hunted for them or eaten them but with the numbers of them I can not see why there can not be a season on them.

[Woodjr55]

How do you hunt doves?

[mike rossi]

The big problem is we have no right to hunt in this state, and no game commission, we don't even have a deer season or any season next year till its voted upon, we need to push to get the right to hunt put in NY constitution and then split the Dec into a game commission that has power to set the seasons, weapons used, and amount and type of game. We ignore this but the day is comming when all the liberals in the state will be in power and bam...all our hunting and fishing will be gone, and it won't come back....

 

I think I know what you are talking about now. NJ has what is known as the fish and wildlife council and committee. They are unpaid volunteers appointed by the governor. They quote: "help create and finalize each years hunting and fishing regulations". Yes other states and tribes use that too. However, keep in mind, New Jersey still had to go through the same legislative process to designate the mourning dove as a game species. Although they did classify doves as game about 2 or 3 years ago, to my knowledge neither NJ Division of fish and wildlife nor the Fish and Wildlife Council and Committee has yet proposed a dove hunting season. So doves are classified as game in NJ, but there is no open season on them, despite having a game commission.

 

Although I misunderstood you, I still am not a big fan of these citizen boards appointed by politicians. In NY we have the fish and wildlife management board, which I guess does an ok job with private land hunting access coops; the conservation fund advisory board, the open lands advisory board, and probably some others important to hunting. The NY State Conservation Council is another example - a hybrid of a private organization which accepts dues and an advisory board - something I am still struggling to understand.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it the same people who are on the existing boards and the NYSCC  the same people advocating for a game commission?  I don't see how this would change things much, except facilitate their personal agendas. I am interested in your ideas and what you know about all this.

[mike rossi]

How do you hunt doves?

 

Pass shooting and decoying. They sometimes decoy very well. Some people use calls or call with their own voice. It is illegal to use electronic calls nationwide and battery powered decoys in some states including PA, but they respond very well to wind powered spinners. When using battery powered spinners in NY for waterfowl, doves often come right in. Regular decoys with or without spinners work too. Most people pass shoot however, especially during the first split  when doves are moving a lot because they are preparing for migration by forming flocks, feeding heavily and flying around to build up flight strength. Another tactic is ambush. If you scout you can locate resting spots and water holes and hunt by ambush. You can also walk up birds, especially during the second and third splits when birds congregate in heavy cover. Both PA and RI have late seasons and walking up birds works well late season - though most dogs wont point them.

 

From a legal perspective you cant use a rifle or pistol and you cannot bait or manipulate a crop inconsistently with normal local agricultural practices. Normal local agriculture practices are determined by the county agriculture extension office were you hunt, so if you are going to use food plots, harvest crops, or even plant crops - especially top sowing, check with them because that is what the conservation police will go by. Some states offer managed dove fields, but they are crowded and not necessary for good hunting, I would recommend finding your own spot over hunting a managed dove field.

Edited December 19, 2013 by mike rossi

[G-Man]

Mike the Dec now oversees pollution,marine and terrestrial end enforcements. Its duties are more than that of a game commission meaning and entity put in place by constitution to enact, protect game and fish only. Much like pa. The polititions are removed from voting on something they know nothing about. A separate entity in charge of only game and fish protecting the right to hunt by constitutional law, not a board that recommends things to senate and representatives hoping they pass it. The monies for this are raised thru Robertson pitman funds and licence sales. We could have more game wardens and biologists not being stifled by monies from the state. Our funds won't be going to replace coal boilers in large cities but instead spent on game and fish. While a citizen group can make recommendations much as the conservation council now does.

[mike rossi]

Mike the Dec now oversees pollution,marine and terrestrial end enforcements. Its duties are more than that of a game commission meaning and entity put in place by constitution to enact, protect game and fish only. Much like pa. The polititions are removed from voting on something they know nothing about. A separate entity in charge of only game and fish protecting the right to hunt by constitutional law, not a board that recommends things to senate and representatives hoping they pass it. The monies for this are raised thru Robertson pitman funds and licence sales. We could have more game wardens and biologists not being stifled by monies from the state. Our funds won't be going to replace coal boilers in large cities but instead spent on game and fish. While a citizen group can make recommendations much as the conservation council now does.

 

PR funds are not the only non-tax source of funds the DEC has to pay its staff's salaries. Nearly every time a new environmental law is created, there is a new legal mandate handed down to the DEC, and new federal funds to fulfill that mandate...

 

There are many overlapping job functions between wildlife/fisheries biologists hired for something like industry permitting for example, and  wildlife/fisheries biologists hired for game management. However the permitting biologist may be paid from a source of federal funds not derived from sportsmen. The same holds true for law enforcement staff. A new pollution law might require more conservation officers  AND create new federal funds, not derived from sportsman, to pay their salaries, yet those additional COs will also enforce fish and game laws... 

 

 I could be wrong, but I think game management gets the bigger slice of the pie with this system... A wildlife biologist hired and trained to administer the clean water act will perform many of the same functions of a big game biologist and vice versa but a deer biologist isn't going to be assigned to permitting wastewater discharge every other Tuesday...  

 

I don't want to delve too deeply into this, but assent legislation prevents sporting license revenue and PR Funds from use in something like replacing coal boilers unless it is to restore wildlife... The PR Funds are correctly called wildlife restoration funds. When a city needs money to replace coal boilers, they would look to other state and federal funds. The DECs involvement, including staff,  would not be funded by license revenue or PR funds. In the event the coal boilers were impacting little brown bats or karner blue butterflies, then like it or not, as far as I know, it would be 100% appropriate to allocate PR funds,wildlife staff, and law enforcement staff toward the problem...  

Edited December 20, 2013 by mike rossi

[DanceswithSkunks]

I hunted dove when I was younger. On our farm we always had a strip of buckwheat about 500' x 150' that would have seed come September 1st. We would line up one on each side on the outside and walk it out. We'd flush over 100 dove and usually limit out, 12 a piece by the time we got to the end. If you've never had dove, find a restaurant that has it on the menu and treat yourself.

 

Dove hunts are a very big social event in the South. Many hunters will setup on the perimeter of a grain field and spend the afternoon shooting and hollaring back and forth at each others hits and misses. 

 

PA recently permitted dove to be hunted sunrise to sunset. Prior to that it started at 12 noon. A Federal Bird stamp is required as the season and limits are determined by the Feds

[covert]

I have known few farm kids who were picky eaters but whatevey... Eating that fresh grain out of that silo makes for some good eatin rock doves... You all want to eat them swine, though? An animal synonomous with filth and at so low populations in NY few people have seen them - that's the way the dec wants to keep it by the way, some aren't connecting the dots...

 

In contrast  the mourning dove is superior tablefare and one of the most abundant species in NY and across North America. So why the interest in pigs, that number in the dozens and not doves which transient populations are measured in the millions?

 

Fact is, although the dec is correct that NY hunters do not have any experience or tradition with doves, they are the most hunted, most bagged, and most eaten - more than whitetails, certainly more than harvested swine, throughout the USA...

 

Every forum has its following, whether its an opinion or a product. This forum is heavy into deer and killing big crap in general, expirtating coyotes, etc... which happens to be par for the course over NY state. However, there are a sizable number of NY hunters who pursue small game who are interested in doves. It is up to those interested hunters to drive the season, the majority average has not come through for 22 years or more... Our plate is full and we have no room to entertain the desires of the NYSCC et al who have not, and will not help us...

Man, you are touchy on the whole Dove thing aren't you?  Myself, I probably wouldn't be eating any feral hog either so sorry 'bout that.

 

Your bolded statement is exactly what I was getting at.  While there may be a "sizeable" number of people interested in hunting doves they obviously aren't in the majority and/or they don't make enough noise or they would be classified as a game animal and there would be a season.

[Rookie]

It seems to me, even from the people who responded to this post, that there is a decent amount of interest in creating a dove season in NY. Mike, you seem to be the most knowledgeable on the subject (at least of those who have posted) so is there something that we can start/do collectively to actually get the ball rolling in terms of actually creating a season?

 

I, for one, would be all for signing a petition to create a dove season in NY and it sounds like others here would be interested as well.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rookie

[mike rossi]

A number of people have suggested a petition, and every time we responded that we do not know anything about the petition process, so we cannot drive a petition campaign.

 

Perhaps a petition was being considered by the NYSCC when they compelled the DEC to include a dove question on the small game survey? If anyone knows and/or has knowledge about the petition process, please speak up! 

Edited December 23, 2013 by mike rossi

[Rookie]

How about this? http://www.dos.ny.gov/lg/publications/CitizenGuidetoPetitions.pdf