QDM Meeting with Neighbors

[dbHunterNY]

In a QDM co-op, you arent talking about having to teach thousands of people the way to age deer, its a relatively small number. You should be having periodic meetings, and mutual gatherings of the members through the year. Pick up some of the pamphlets, posters, DVDs, etc about how to age deer and distribute it to the members of the co-op. It will sink in eventually through repetition. Personally, I have a little bit easier time judging body characteristics from a distance than counting antler points. You can tell a 1 1/2 year old from a 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 pretty easy if you know what to look for. Now once you get into older class bucks, you will need some skill to tell a 4 1/2 from a 5 1/2, but thats not what you are looking for at this point anyhow.

 

yea they said they've got all kinds of charts and material to teach us, plus a guy there with one of the existing co-ops teaches can teach a class on aging too.  I've studied up on aging deer.  I've read a lot, looked at pictures, and took quizzes.  I've practiced on harvested deer that were aged by teeth after by both cementum and jaw bone, both in the field and otherwise.  Our time span of dropping fawns being so large around here makes things a little muddy with comparing earlier versus later born as they get to 2.5yrs old.  I can agree with what you're saying though.

[orion]

 None of the ones from the organization I have heard speak are focused on the bucks.

 

Bucks need to be focused on, Its the selling point for probable 90% of hunters.  Without the promise of or at least the wishful thinking of mature bucks with big racks running around the QDMA conversion would be stifled.

 

How many QDMA speakers tell you your carrying capacity?, what your deer population actually is? a realistic buck/doe ratio for your area?

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Bucks need to be focused on, Its the selling point for probable 90% of hunters.  Without the promise of or at least the wishful thinking of mature bucks with big racks running around the QDMA conversion would be stifled.

 

How many QDMA speakers tell you your carrying capacity?, what your deer population actually is? a realistic buck/doe ratio for your area?

 

This gets a bit frustrating at times. Are you speaking of QDMA or QDM. The terms are not interchangeable.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Bucks need to be focused on, Its the selling point for probable 90% of hunters.  Without the promise of or at least the wishful thinking of mature bucks with big racks running around the QDMA conversion would be stifled.

 

How many QDMA speakers tell you your carrying capacity?, what your deer population actually is? a realistic buck/doe ratio for your area?

 

 

Apparently you are one of the guys that are confusing the abbreviations. QDM is a management plan or style, QDMA is an organization that promotes and studies QDM concepts among many other things.

 

http://www.QDMA.com

[WNYBuckHunter]

BTW, I corrected the title of the thread. Maybe that will help alleviate some of the confusion.

[dbHunterNY]

Bucks need to be focused on, Its the selling point for probable 90% of hunters.  Without the promise of or at least the wishful thinking of mature bucks with big racks running around the QDMA conversion would be stifled.

 

How many QDMA speakers tell you your carrying capacity?, what your deer population actually is? a realistic buck/doe ratio for your area?

 

 

I agree that the by-product of getting bigger bucks is what gets many in the door for the meeting or to listen.  There was a big racked buck, among other things, on most of the slides in the presentation we saw.  However, none of the topics of discussion were about big racked bucks.  All topics you mentioned of carrying capacity, population, and ratio where talked about in the probably standard QDMA slide show and/or definitely standard QDMA video we watched.  For that reason I got to think any QDMA speaker would discuss that stuff, despite not every deer management speaker would.

[dbHunterNY]

BTW, I corrected the title of the thread. Maybe that will help alleviate some of the confusion.

 

Thanks.

[nyantler]

  

Have to disagree with you on this. None of the ones from the organization I have heard speak are focused on the bucks. The ones I have heard speak are focused on the other factors with the more mature buck population being a benefit. Which QDMA people are you speaking of?

I think what you've heard when they speak is them trying to convince themselves and you that they are doing something other than what they are. The so called  "QDM" movement by many of the QDMA membership is way more about farming whitetails than anything in my opinion... don't get me wrong, I'm all for the concept of good deer management... I just see more about food plotting to keep deer on one property and off another, growing and following bucks on trail cam until they get older enough to shoot in or on their way to the food plot. I know lots of hunters believe they are doing something noble in the name of QDM...but it is NOT the same concept that it was intended to be. I'm not saying it's not good for the deer... just not as good for hunting in my opinion.

 

But, I will say that when Grant Woods introduced it to NY in the 90's I never thought that he too would buy into the deer farming and trophy management blunder that QDM has become... I was wrong! So.. I guess if one of the foremost authorities on the program can be lured away from the original concept... I shouldn't be surprised that most others could be as well.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I think what you've heard when they speak is them trying to convince themselves and you that they are doing something other than what they are. The so called  "QDM" movement by many of the QDMA membership is way more about farming whitetails than anything in my opinion... don't get me wrong, I'm all for the concept of good deer management... I just see more about food plotting to keep deer on one property and off another, growing and following bucks on trail cam until they get older enough to shoot in or on their way to the food plot. I know lots of hunters believe they are doing something noble in the name of QDM...but it is NOT the same concept that it was intended to be. I'm not saying it's not good for the deer... just not as good for hunting in my opinion.

 

But, I will say that when Grant Woods introduced it to NY in the 90's I never thought that he too would buy into the deer farming and trophy management blunder that QDM has become... I was wrong! So.. I guess if one of the foremost authorities on the program can be lured away from the original concept... I shouldn't be surprised that most others could be as well.

Memberships man!

[nyantler]

Memberships man!

Nope.. I got the grammar correct. The entire body is considered the membership.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think what you've heard when they speak is them trying to convince themselves and you that they are doing something other than what they are. The so called  "QDM" movement by many of the QDMA membership is way more about farming whitetails than anything in my opinion...

I haven't seen that in our branch or heard that promoted in anything I have heard. Food plots have a place, along with TSI and management of natural species. Passing on 1.5's is also promoted. Youth hunting activates, especially for kids that may not get a chance. If you look at their mission statement and the 4 cornerstones of the process I can't get to where you are. I won't sit here and say the desire to have larger bucks is not at the root of it for many, but I think it isn't fair to paint it all with that brush. I believe there is a distinct difference between TDM and QDM.  

[WNYBuckHunter]

I have to agree with Culver, since I have been associated and active with the QDMA, I have seen less and less about focusing on big antlers only, and more and more about good land management that benefits alot more than just big bucks. Lots of info and research on keeping a good diversity of natural vegetation on your property, removing invasive species, enhancing cover, predator control, etc etc. The youth aspects and focus on our hunting heritage is HUGE with the organization. Sure, theres lots of info on food plots, and quality bucks, but the organization is about so much more, it isnt even funny.

 

Its ok, you guys can hate on them all you want, but the fact of the matter is, no other deer hunting organization has, or continues to do more for every single sportsman (not just deer hunter) out there, every day.

[Doewhacker]

I am whole heartedly against AR's and TDM but I think the QDMA chapter WNY and Culver are in has got it right. Not all chapters are the same, but some are spot on. In a way they represent more of what is right with hunting, conservation and the preservation of the sport through youth involvement.

[dbHunterNY]

generally speaking, in this area, land owners and hunters have no sense of ownership to responsibilities as a hunter, land steward, and conservationist.  there's tunnel vision with no intention to help out everyone and everything as a whole.  if someone shoots a deer it's "i don't know what you're doing, but I got my deer I'm good."  the way things came across in the meeting was if i pull the trigger or release this arrow, how will this affect the deer herd, the habitat, or how the hunting is next year.  there's also a sense of community.  you're forced to get to know your neighbors and talk to them before, during, and after the season.

[WesternNY]

I think what you've heard when they speak is them trying to convince themselves and you that they are doing something other than what they are. The so called  "QDM" movement by many of the QDMA membership is way more about farming whitetails than anything in my opinion... don't get me wrong, I'm all for the concept of good deer management... I just see more about food plotting to keep deer on one property and off another, growing and following bucks on trail cam until they get older enough to shoot in or on their way to the food plot. I know lots of hunters believe they are doing something noble in the name of QDM...but it is NOT the same concept that it was intended to be. I'm not saying it's not good for the deer... just not as good for hunting in my opinion.

 

But, I will say that when Grant Woods introduced it to NY in the 90's I never thought that he too would buy into the deer farming and trophy management blunder that QDM has become... I was wrong! So.. I guess if one of the foremost authorities on the program can be lured away from the original concept... I shouldn't be surprised that most others could be as well.

 

So your stance on the QDMA organization is a giant paint brush, so should I assume that our endevaors with New York Antlers is just promoting TDM and or  Nothing but a fascination with big antlers?  How is that good for the sport?

 

Maybe people should take the stance that anyone who hunts and does no improvement to the land is just a consumer, take take take, both of my statements are a giant paint brush assumption, and are  misleading just like your take on QDM.

 

Anyone that thinks planing food plots is going rope in a big bucks go drink your koolaid. 

 

As others have said, it is about more than antler, the way I describe it is a steward of the land.   The QDMA orgainization does a ton of good work, both nationally and locally.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You have to admit that even if you go over and read their website 90% of their members speak of inches and killing the top bucks. Yes they want mature but they also want the biggest white horned beast in the woods. Just as 99% of american hunters do. Heck even the members over there that are outfitters are pushing for 130 inches and charging cash to do it.

 Its all a good thing with the food plots and land improvements but to think that the bone is not what is on most minds in the month of November is a stretch.

[phade]

You have to admit that even if you go over and read their website 90% of their members speak of inches and killing the top bucks. Yes they want mature but they also want the biggest white horned beast in the woods. Just as 99% of american hunters do. Heck even the members over there that are outfitters are pushing for 130 inches and charging cash to do it.

 Its all a good thing with the food plots and land improvements but to think that the bone is not what is on most minds in the month of November is a stretch.

 

Actually what surprises me is that most members on their forum are actually less concerned about taking those top end bucks and are more concerned with the "taking care of land" angle that WesternNY talks about. I see more talk about the crude protein % and the "what type of tractor to buy" topics than I do topics about bucks.

 

There's a handful of outfitters on the forum, but most of them are actually officers of their local branches.

 

I'm all for a balanced approach to land and deer management. But I also want to kill bucks of an older age class and even score AS WELL. I'm a minority on that forum in that sense. Pretty shocking.

Edited March 25, 2014 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

You have to admit that even if you go over and read their website 90% of their members speak of inches and killing the top bucks. Yes they want mature but they also want the biggest white horned beast in the woods. Just as 99% of american hunters do. Heck even the members over there that are outfitters are pushing for 130 inches and charging cash to do it.

 Its all a good thing with the food plots and land improvements but to think that the bone is not what is on most minds in the month of November is a stretch.

 

Whos saying the members dont want to see and kill big bucks? We are saying that the organization is about much much more than that. Its not just about food plots, TDM, and things of that nature. Feel free to cherry pick and take your pot shots though, anyone that goes to the site, looks around, and sees what is really going on will get it. We know you have your personal agenda with the QDMA.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Whos saying the members dont want to see and kill big bucks? We are saying that the organization is about much much more than that. Its not just about food plots, TDM, and things of that nature. Feel free to cherry pick and take your pot shots though, anyone that goes to the site, looks around, and sees what is really going on will get it. We know you have your personal agenda with the QDMA.

Well this really has nothing to do with their thoughts on anything i do as it means exactly zero to me or my industry. You need to stick up for a losing battle because they sure do need the numbers as it looks like they are losing many more than gaining but anyway lets just look at one post that just came on today. I really dont have to dig any further do i?

 

 

 

 

Join Date: Jun 2011

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 1,581

 

"Given that quality deer management practices focus on production of older bucks with large antlers, management agencies could face difficult alternatives from these competing interests."

Total deer population doesn't impact CWD prevalence, but increased population of anter bucks does....ouch! What's QDMAs stance on this one, sooner or later they are going to have to take a position. Being quite isn't gonna work here?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

Well this really has nothing to do with their thoughts on anything i do as it means exactly zero to me or my industry. You need to stick up for a losing battle because they sure do need the numbers as it looks like they are losing many more than gaining but anyway lets just look at one post that just came on today. I really dont have to dig any further do i?

 

 

 

 

Join Date: Jun 2011

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 1,581

 

"Given that quality deer management practices focus on production of older bucks with large antlers, management agencies could face difficult alternatives from these competing interests."

Total deer population doesn't impact CWD prevalence, but increased population of anter bucks does....ouch! What's QDMAs stance on this one, sooner or later they are going to have to take a position. Being quite isn't gonna work here?

 

where did that quote come from?

 

I also would have to disagree with your first part. I think if the likelihood increase of encountering a more mature buck there would be a drop in the market for high dollar fenced hunts.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

where did that quote come from?

 

I also would have to disagree with your first part. I think if the likelihood increase of encountering a more mature buck there would be a drop in the market for high dollar fenced hunts.

Came right off the qdma website and as far as high fence...Good luck stopping that. Thats a force way to powerful for a group like qdma to even touch with their false cwd words. As has been proven over and over. They now no longer have cwd to use as their ploy so now its a matter of how a person chooses to spend their time and i can tell you where thousands spend a few days every fall.

 

I really hope you dont think that any state is going to start raising bigger bucks in this time. Look what has happened to states like Iowa,Kansas and the other states that used to grow big deer by the dozens. Outfitters and hunters looking for the most inches a deer can grow has ruined those states. Lets not forget about ehd in the story either. Deer hunting of 10 years ago is gone by the wayside along with the way hunting used to be.You know, the way qdma stands for!  Those days are long gone im afraid. Today world is ran by the all mighty dollar and time constraints!

[nyantler]

So your stance on the QDMA organization is a giant paint brush, so should I assume that our endevaors with New York Antlers is just promoting TDM and or  Nothing but a fascination with big antlers?  How is that good for the sport?

 

Maybe people should take the stance that anyone who hunts and does no improvement to the land is just a consumer, take take take, both of my statements are a giant paint brush assumption, and are  misleading just like your take on QDM.

 

Anyone that thinks planing food plots is going rope in a big bucks go drink your koolaid. 

 

As others have said, it is about more than antler, the way I describe it is a steward of the land.   The QDMA orgainization does a ton of good work, both nationally and locally.

I don't have a "take" on QDM... what I say doesn't come from some willy-nilly notion that just popped into my head... I was with the QDMA almost since their conception... I introduced them to NY years before you even knew what the QDMA was... anything I say comes from years of watching the transition of many members from stewards of good deer management to big buck farmers... hiding under the guise of the ultimate conservationist. I will concede that there still are many in the organization that still keep much of the original concept and the QDMA is not the problem...  but for you to pretend that the QDM movement itself hasn't become trophy management and farming for larger deer is dishonest... Sorry if you're upset, but just because you and I still hold the original concept dear... doesn't change the reality of what QDM has become.

[nyantler]

e

I haven't seen that in our branch or heard that promoted in anything I have heard. Food plots have a place, along with TSI and management of natural species. Passing on 1.5's is also promoted. Youth hunting activates, especially for kids that may not get a chance. If you look at their mission statement and the 4 cornerstones of the process I can't get to where you are. I won't sit here and say the desire to have larger bucks is not at the root of it for many, but I think it isn't fair to paint it all with that brush. I believe there is a distinct difference between TDM and QDM.  

After further thought I agree that it probably isn't fair of me to blame the QDMA.... I honestly don't have anything against the organization... I actually still support what they promote and most of the guys that head up the organization are very knowledgable about proper deer management...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I don't have a "take" on QDM... what I say doesn't come from some willy-nilly notion that just popped into my head... I was with the QDMA almost since their conception... I introduced them to NY years before you even knew what the QDMA was... anything I say comes from years of watching the transition of many members from stewards of good deer management to big buck farmers... hiding under the guise of the ultimate conservationist. I will concede that there still are many in the organization that still keep much of the original concept and the QDMA is not the problem...  but for you to pretend that the QDM movement itself hasn't become trophy management and farming for larger deer is dishonest... Sorry if you're upset, but just because you and I still hold the original concept dear... doesn't change the reality of what QDM has become.

So True!  I myself have no problem with QDMA's way of thinking.   I use it every year to grow the biggest bucks my property can produce.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well this really has nothing to do with their thoughts on anything i do as it means exactly zero to me or my industry. You need to stick up for a losing battle because they sure do need the numbers as it looks like they are losing many more than gaining but anyway lets just look at one post that just came on today. I really dont have to dig any further do i?

Join Date: Jun 2011

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 1,581

"Given that quality deer management practices focus on production of older bucks with large antlers, management agencies could face difficult alternatives from these competing interests."

Total deer population doesn't impact CWD prevalence, but increased population of anter bucks does....ouch! What's QDMAs stance on this one, sooner or later they are going to have to take a position. Being quite isn't gonna work here?

A losing battle? You arent paying attention, are you? QDM practices are growing outside of fences at a much faster rate than your high fence places are. In fact, one could make a pretty viable argument as to why high fence operations that grow bucks for shooting, are at the root of most of whats wrong with the hunting industry today, and cwd doesnt even need to be brought into the conversation.

Your industry is all about the money, thats it, lining your own pockets. The QDMA is all for research, furthering our sport through political means and promoting our sport to youth and other new comers. While i dont have a problem with capitalism, i do take issue with profiteering by genetically mutated freaks of nature, and the black eye it gives the sport i love. Now dont take that to mean i have a problem with all deer farming, just the places that tie a 200" 2 year old to a post and have some ding dong cough up a wad of cash to blast him.

Anyway, back on topic...