On Ethics

[Curmudgeon]

There is a rationale I have heard a number of times on this forum that I need to address. It is the claim that if a practice is legal, that it is also ethical. I find this deeply flawed. Using this line of argument, going squirrel hunting with 10 rounds in the magazine of my 10-22 is unethical. (The SAFE Act says I can only have 7). On the other hand, using snare to restrain a bear in Maine is ethical. A hungry family killing a deer out of season is unethical. Unloading a semi-auto at a running deer during the season, wounding it and making only a modest effort to find it is ethical.

 

It is quite easy to take this line of reasoning beyond hunting. It is quite legal to raise pigs and cattle in CAFOs. That is why commercial meat is so cheap. This is disturbing and unethical. For anyone who eats meat yet considers hunting unethical, the deer we kill each had a good life and “one bad day”. The confined cattle and pigs live a life of misery, wallowing in their own crap.

 

We need a higher standard of ethical behavior than just legality.

[Five Seasons]

Preach on brother. While the law does a decent job in an attempt to control humanity, what is ethical is not always legal and what is legal is not always ethical. But we were all raised differently so our values and goals differ. I'd like to think though that most decent human beings know wrong when they see it without having to go to the CFR's.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ethics are a matter of opinion. Laws are laws.

[JFB]

Oh man you're gonna get blasted b/c I've been down that road here. Imo, the "as long as it's legal" guys often use that rationale to explain away just shooting every animal they see regardless of the situation, weapon, etc. NYS DEC could decide to allow hand grenades dropped from air planes to further wipe out deer and guys will say... "hey, as long as it's legal"... And we all know how well government is able to determine what is and is not legal 

[waterweasle]

your ethics are your ethics, mine are mine....................laws are the same for both of us

[jjb4900]

to me, the guy who goes fishing and keeps his limit every time, just because he can is unethical, as is a guy who spots a deer while driving, parks and walks down the road gets the legal minimum off the roadway and kills it, or the guy who fills every deer tag just because he can, and then goes and dumps them all at some donation center.......only because I don't need to hunt or fish for food and don't see the need for anyone else who hunt's or fishes for enjoyment to do the same..........now you take a guy who needs that animal/fish for food, and I change my opinion on what is ethical.

Edited November 30, 2014 by jjb4900

[Nomad]

You can put in ten rounds.

[EspressoBuzz]

The real issue is why is the will of the people not being upheld? The bill to ban the use of that type of maternity cage passed by a large margin and polls have shown that over 75 percent of New Jersey population is in favor of banning them. The question is why does corporate/political interests trump the voters of New Jersey? With concerns toward CAFO why are laws written to except them from clean water and air laws?

[jjb4900]

There is a rationale I have heard a number of times on this forum that I need to address. It is the claim that if a practice is legal, that it is also ethical. I find this deeply flawed. Using this line of argument, going squirrel hunting with 10 rounds in the magazine of my 10-22 is unethical. (The SAFE Act says I can only have 7). On the other hand, using snare to restrain a bear in Maine is ethical. A hungry family killing a deer out of season is unethical. Unloading a semi-auto at a running deer during the season, wounding it and making only a modest effort to find it is ethical.

 

It is quite easy to take this line of reasoning beyond hunting. It is quite legal to raise pigs and cattle in CAFOs. That is why commercial meat is so cheap. This is disturbing and unethical. For anyone who eats meat yet considers hunting unethical, the deer we kill each had a good life and “one bad day”. The confined cattle and pigs live a life of misery, wallowing in their own crap.

 

We need a higher standard of ethical behavior than just legality.

if you want to move beyond ethics as it pertains to hunting, this thread is going to explode.............and see, putting 10 rounds in the magazine is ILLEGAL, and snaring bear in Maine is LEGAL.....no ,debating either of those two facts, are they ethical? that's up to you to decide.

Edited November 30, 2014 by jjb4900

[Curmudgeon]

your ethics are your ethics, mine are mine....................laws are the same for both of us

 

I agree with your statement. We will never all agree on individual practices. Using laws, however, as a basis for ethics is a race to the bottom.

 

Re CAFOs - This is just to point out the hypocrisy of those who eat meat but consider hunting unethical. 

Edited November 30, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[jjb4900]

I agree with you. We will never agree. Laws, however - as a basis for ethics - are a race to the bottom.

 

Re CAFOs - This is just to point out the hypocrisy of those who eat meat but consider hunting unethical. 

"a race to the bottom" that's a good way of putting it...there will always be those who use the law to gauge how low they will go........."4 drinks and I"m too drunk to drive, so let me suck down 3.5 and drive home"......sad that people use it to see exactly what they can get away with before landing themselves in trouble

Edited November 30, 2014 by jjb4900

[Mr VJP]

Legality has never been the standard of ethical behavior.  Some folks may choose to do things because they are legal, but that does not make them ethical.

 

Ethics are often personal.  If baiting bears or deer is legal, and that's how you hunt, there is nothing wrong with it.  To you, it is ethical.  Anyone who chooses not to do it can say it's not sporting, but has no right to call it unethical.

 

IMHO, the only thing that is unethical is knowingly violating the law, or doing something that you personally feel is not sporting.  Ethics are methods that make you feel sporting, even when nobody is around to see what you did.

 

[philoshop]

 

We need a higher standard of ethical behavior than just legality.

 

That would cause massive unemployment among the lawyers and politicians in this country. Not a bad idea.

[Five Seasons]

Ethics are a matter of opinion. Laws are laws.

Except they are man made and constantly change. If I smoked a joint in Colorado last year I am unethical? But now that it's legal smoking that same joint means I'm an ethical human?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Except they are man made and constantly change. If I smoked a joint in Colorado last year I am unethical? But now that it's legal smoking that same joint means I'm an ethical human?

Ethics are also man made. They are the values you hold true to yourself. There are plenty of people that dont see breaking the law as unethical.

[jjb4900]

Ethics are also man made. They are the values you hold true to yourself. There are plenty of people that dont see breaking the law as unethical.

this is very true.

[Curmudgeon]

Ethics are also man made. They are the values you hold true to yourself. There are plenty of people that dont see breaking the law as unethical.

 

And, some see breaking the law as a matter of conscience, or the ethical choice.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[WNYBuckHunter]

And, some see breaking the law as a matter of conscience, or the ethical choice.

Which makes ethics completely arbitrary.

[Curmudgeon]

Which makes ethics completely arbitrary.

 

I prefer "personal" to "arbitrary".

 

I was hoping some of the people who use "legal" as an equivalent to "ethical" would comment. They seem quiet.

 

Edited December 1, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I prefer "personal" to "arbitrary".

 

I was hoping some of the people who use "legal" as an equivalent to "ethical" would comment. They seem quiet.

 

You mean the bait and dogger's?

[Curmudgeon]

You mean the bait and dogger's?

 

I mean anyone who fails to have any personal standards. People who believe if it is legal, it is right.

 

For me, it is more likely the guys unloading their semi-autos. About 15 years ago the crew that formerly owned the property to my south - absentee landowners - opened fire on a small doe in a field. The doe was directly between them and me. I was in cover and didn't know they were there. There were 5 of them standing in a field next to their trucks. They each had a semi-auto shotgun (it was before rifles here). They each unloaded their shotguns at the doe. I got behind a BIG tree. There was a 15 or 20 second pause then 3 more shots. I walked the 250 yards to them, asked what was going on. They told me they had shot "at" a doe in the field. They had made no effort to move after shooting. I walked to the tracks in the shallow snow. I looked at them closely. Not a hair or a spot of blood could be found. 28 shots fired at a moving deer at 100 yards.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[growalot]

 

For anyone who eats meat yet considers hunting unethical, the deer we kill each had a good life and “one bad day”. The confined cattle and pigs live a life of misery, wallowing in their own crap.

So as far as the rest of your post...I get the point ...but for the above in quotes...You really haven't stepped foot in any modern farms  lately have you?...For if you had...that quote box would be...empty

Edited December 1, 2014 by growalot

[jjb4900]

I don't really concern myself with farm raised animals......in fact, I sleep very well at night thinking about it, especially after a meal of milk fed Veal, mmmmmmmmm......and I really don't think that I'm doing the "right thing" by killing my own food.

Edited December 1, 2014 by jjb4900

[Curmudgeon]

So as far as the rest of your post...I get the point ...but for the above in quotes...You really haven't stepped foot in any modern farms  lately have you?...For if you had...that quote box would be...empty

 

Wrong! The key word in my quote is "confined". There are modern farms that are industrial and clean. There are modern farms that are clean and humane. However, my daughter teaches at UNC in Greely, CO. Try visiting there. As they say in Fort Collins when the wind blows from the east, "it smells like Greely".

 

I have other family in France. That is a totally different world. Say what you will about the French, there are no CAFOs there.

 

This is an interesting thing to look at for anyone who hasn't given much thought to where those cuts in the supermarket come from:

 

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=913&q=cafo&oq=cafo&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1333.2358.0.4017.4.4.0.0.0.0.1093.1093.7-1.1.0....0...1ac.1.58.img..3.1.1091.X6dwjamNJos

Edited December 1, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Five Seasons]

You mean the bait and dogger's?

 

what's funny though is that dog running is part of the heritage and tradition in the south. It is certainly not without controversy, and I do agree that not obeying the law can be unethical and I would say someone running deer in NY would be unethical. But it's so interesting to me that just a few hours south and it's not considered unethical. Same deer. Same country.