Another DEC abortion on the way...

[eagle rider]

Just a guess, and maybe a little rooted in the number of deer skeletons I found while turkey hunting.... maybe, just maybe the deer biologists are killing two birds with one stone here.  First to crimp some more of the doe population and overall take some pressure off bucks during the early and late seasons in certain units.  This might allow buck numbers to start coming up.  These units would start to produce more bucks over time.  Its a deer biologist driven regulation.  

[Doc]

Just a guess, and maybe a little rooted in the number of deer skeletons I found while turkey hunting.... maybe, just maybe the deer biologists are killing two birds with one stone here.  First to crimp some more of the doe population and overall take some pressure off bucks during the early and late seasons in certain units.  This might allow buck numbers to start coming up.  These units would start to produce more bucks over time.  Its a deer biologist driven regulation.

Actually, it is a stakeholder's driven regulation ( http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7207.html ). Looking through the listing of potential stakeholder members of the Citizen Task Force that Cornell/DEC have come up with, if you divide these stakeholder candidates into pro-deer and anti-deer interests, you will see it heavily weighted toward those that would just as soon that deer didn't even exist. Yes, they try to put a face on it all that makes believe that it is being driven by biological factors in order to hold down the public outrage. But in reality it is biological decisions being made by business interests. At least that is how it all appears to me.

[eagle rider]

Doc- did I miss something?,... I just read the entire proposed item, the Citizen's Task Force doesn't appear once in the language of the narrative that I saw.  Also on the link you posted there is no roster of membership or links to a membership page.... My guess is since it is public it is something any of us can try to join.  Anyway here it is on the DEC page:

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/101798.html

 

 

[growalot]

But in reality it is biological decisions being made by business interests. At least that is how it all appears to me.

 

 

 

If that were the case the biologist had best go back and review some of their own numbers...for I believe at least a few of the effected WMU's listed for bow only are the top deer producers over all AND highest buck per square mile areas...This would be for many,many years now.

[eagle rider]

It's always about a buck to doe ratio for them. I live in one of those affected counties. Hell you wanna shoot doe all month put a ladder stand in the oak on my front lawn and have at it. As far as I'm concerned you make Oct doe only in Suffolk.

But I do think we are woefully over regulated by the DEC. They want to reduce numbers of doe. Let us doe like other states do and hunt over minerals. It boggles the mind why some one can out in a field of Biologic thrown n grow and that's okay. But a lick isn't? I've hunted in states where you can shoot over minerals and it can easily turn into a hen party of doe. Especially in late fall when the natural vegetation starts drying up a bit. Just sayin.

Anyways before this turns into a pissing match. Happy Memorial Day fellas. And remember those who serve(d) when we're flippen dogs and pulling up beer can tabs.

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Edited May 25, 2015 by eagle rider

[Vince1]

It's always about a buck to doe ratio for them. I live in one of those affected counties. Hell you wanna shoot doe all month put a ladder stand in the oak on my front lawn and have at it. As far as I'm concerned you make Oct doe only in Suffolk.

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offer accepted, I take coffee and crumpets at 8am.

 

I have a love hate relationship with hunting LI. love the amount of deer, but I hate that they hang out in all the private land.

[eagle rider]

Jezze I should be getting the breakfast on this deal. I hate Long Island too problem is the job and the wife are here. I can give up one gladly....

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[Nomad]

Some random thoughts . I know several guys who don't bow hunt till Nov. they like to hang their deer a few days and want little to do with warm weather hunting, others just want to hunt the rut. These are very good hunters with great spots so,killing a decent buck is almost a given .

Most bow hunters I know take time off in the rut and that is where their time is spent on stand , early season hunting is something they do if the weather is right and family events allow it ( not going to fight the wife to,hunt in Oct.)

This is just like going back to a Oct 15th opener for many. They won't be out there Oct 1 to 15 anyway. They should have done this when they changed the opening date a few years back, now I'm used to the fact I can take a buck early if I choose.

I took two doe last year , both in gun both at the very end of the day when I knew there would not be chance at a buck that day . I give them away most times , two is more then the wife and I eat anymore .

I guess I can take a doe in the first few days of bow then stay home till Nov. when I got 3 weeks off....

Earn a buck I can see that ,many I know pass countless doe in bow these guys will now at least kill one . Might be better than a few trying to,kill many.

[LetEmGrow]

quite a few I would think..........how many people that have been watching a nice buck all summer want to chance waiting to get a shot at it?

 

I second this.  I believe the best time to harvest a mature buck in the Southern Zone of New York is right when the season opens.

[LetEmGrow]

Actually, it is a stakeholder's driven regulation ( http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7207.html ). Looking through the listing of potential stakeholder members of the Citizen Task Force that Cornell/DEC have come up with, if you divide these stakeholder candidates into pro-deer and anti-deer interests, you will see it heavily weighted toward those that would just as soon that deer didn't even exist. Yes, they try to put a face on it all that makes believe that it is being driven by biological factors in order to hold down the public outrage. But in reality it is biological decisions being made by business interests. At least that is how it all appears to me.

 

Yeah.  And I don't know for sure but I think you may be in 8N.  I am in 8N on the eastern side of it and there is no way around these parts there are very many deer.  I have seen far less than in the past couple of years and I can already see this spring that they really got a blistering last gun season with all that snow on that ground.  I have trail cameras out already and have very few pics of deer - mostly singles - and I have not had any problems with them in turkey season.  In fact I have only seen deer one morning.

 

I put in clover plots on my land last fall and then frost seeded this spring.  Beautiful clover fields.  But they seem to be missing one thing - deer.  Even after dark.

[growalot]

Yeah.  And I don't know for sure but I think you may be in 8N.  I am in 8N on the eastern side of it and there is no way around these parts there are very many deer.  I have seen far less than in the past couple of years and I can already see this spring that they really got a blistering last gun season with all that snow on that ground.  I have trail cameras out already and have very few pics of deer - mostly singles - and I have not had any problems with them in turkey season.  In fact I have only seen deer one morning.

 

I put in clover plots on my land last fall and then frost seeded this spring.  Beautiful clover fields.  But they seem to be missing one thing - deer.  Even after dark.

 

 

 

There it is...I'm so glad you wrote that for I'm on the 8N bordering 8M...we have lots and lots of deer doe and buck... Last year was a tough one for me but that was just due to a herd dynamic switch , going nocturnal early and probably my knee... Your post shows that things aren't EQUAL across all areas of a WMU....Ya I could hunt the first 2 wks and probably shoot a good # of doe ...IF THEY cooperate. You may have a tough time doing so...why would you go out much that first two weeks perhaps causing  them and the buck to go nocturnal in that case?

Why would I not take advantage of my 8M and 8X areas and get doe tags there and not my regular 8N hunting, should I want to take both doe and the nice buck that may walk by?

The DEC could ground me and anyone else thinking the same thing with a earn a buck for those areas instead..they are making poor decisions...8M will have a rush of 8N hunters like we had 8M pile in when their DMP's were cut years ago .

[Nomad]

I,just read that dmaps in my area may go from two to four per Hunter .

Let's see I get one doe tag in bow two reg. doe tags , can get two second round tags, two signed over and two dmaps that's nine doe tags now . Giving me two more wont help as I'm never taking 11 doe ! 2 and many years in the past 3 if I had someone to give it to is about it .

It's hard to make few do most of the work, we need to,spread it out. Many bow hunters I know and that's a lot have little to no interest is taking does , perhaps because where I hunt it's very good and at work we get tons of time off to,hunt . I understand that is not the case for many though .

Perhaps a carrot instead of a stick ? A point system for killing does , builds up after so many points , every say 6 doe during bow you get an extra buck tag. One year or six however long it takes . Must be visual proof of kill lic. Agent hangs out point after seeing deer and tag filled out . Just off the top of my head doesn't have to be exactly that.

Ok my first beer is waiting !

[Doc]

Doc- did I miss something?,... I just read the entire proposed item, the Citizen's Task Force doesn't appear once in the language of the narrative that I saw.  Also on the link you posted there is no roster of membership or links to a membership page.... My guess is since it is public it is something any of us can try to join.  Anyway here it is on the DEC page:

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/101798.html

OK, now go back and actually read the DEC page on CTFs that I linked and you will see that this is the way that deer harvest goals (targets) are established. The proposals are all aimed at supporting those CTF-established goals. And that, as I pointed out, is the connection between CTFs and the actions that the DEC is now taking (Proposals).

 

As far as who is chosen for the CTFs, let me lift a quote directly from that page that I linked to: "Stakeholders are people affected by deer who have a particular concern or interest in the overall population of deer in a WMU. Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc, are all considered as potentially distinct stakeholder groups." Take out the hunters, and all of the rest of them are what I would call anti-deer interests, or at least have some potential negative interface with their local herds. The low targets established by these CTFs are what is driving these knee-jerk proposals.

 

[Doc]

I wonder if it has occurred to any of these geniuses that by restricting harvests to "doe only" that likely the overall hunting pressure in those select high population areas likely will go down as hunters opt to hunt other areas where they don't have to watch the buck of a lifetime walk by. Exactly the opposite of what they are trying to do.

[mike rossi]

It's time to have elected officials run the DEC. , instead of appointed ones.

Then a program can be amended that has more chance of working.

 

 

Oh here we go another dam fool who wants elected officials to make wildlife management dissensions, when the DEC dose something he doesn't like.

You do understand that the NY Assembly is run by liberal democrats from NYC and we are 1 vote away from that happening in the state senate. This is the same group that wanted the set back for all hunting from 500 to a 1000 ft and they want ban all guns. So quit whingeing. The DEC has to manage more then your little part of deer heaven.

 

I think he is being sarcastic or he is trying to see how much you all know. This is a complex topic. The Legislature tells the DEC "what" it can regulate. Once given approval, then the DEC can set regulations. So, it is partially true that the Legislature, not the DEC sets hunting policy, not the DEC. For example, the legalization of crossbows required approval by the Legislature, however, once that approval was granted, then the DEC was authorized to set a crossbow hunting season. 

 

The DEC, or more specifically, the BOW, is theoretically supposed to make recommendations to the Legislature. However, politicians, especially republicans, don't like science. As a result. stakeholder input at the legislative level guides policy more than does the DEC/BOW. Those stakeholders may be hunters or anti hunters. Sometimes it includes nature enthusiasts that do not identify as either hunters or anti hunters. 

 

Once the DEC/BOW has authority to regulate a weapon or a species as game, the politics do not end. Stakeholder input continues at the regulation setting level when the DEC/BOW receives public comment.  

 

This is complex and interesting, because it appears the system was originally designed so that the Legislature is guided by the DEC/BOW, and then afterward, the DEC/BOW considers stakeholder input in finalizing regulations. 

 

Another paradox is the use of citizen advisory boards. These boards consist of a couple of "ex-offico" members, those who are politicians and those who work for the DEC. The remainder of these board members are appointed by other politicians. How those people are chosen is also interesting - politicians consult with hunting organizations. Perhaps this explains why the hunting community in NY gives out so many "awards" ? People receiving these awards usually end up on these boards. So, under the umbrella of the NY State Conservation Council is the NY State Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs, under their umbrella is every County federation of SC, and under their umbrella is most rod and gun clubs existing in the respective county. Who runs these organizations, whether a rod and gun , county fed, state fed, or the conservation council, - ELECTED  people. 

 

So within the hunting community itself their is a FUBR web of elections and appointments. The Legislature and/or Governor makes "appointments" to various advisory boards at the recommendations of the (organized) hunting community. The Commissioner of the DEC is appointed by the Governor. 

 

So keep all that in mind every time you decide to second guess the DEC - BOW. The Legislature and most hunting organizations do not consider the DEC - BOW the best source of guidance. Advisory boards are chosen by hunting organizations and politicians. If your public comment resonates with the organizations, you help seal the deal in many cases, even if the DEC - BOW does not agree. If you do not bother to participate in public comment, then you are going with the flow, even if the flow is driven by anti hunters. 

 

Slightly off topic, the system doesn't really make sense in regard to species. The DEC - BOW is automatically entrusted to manage any species as non-game, but to manage any species as game, it requires Legislative approval. Go figure.... 

[eagle rider]

I did read your link and while there maybe antis on CTF there are also hunters. Assuming that the antis won how would a broke state manage the herd? The DEC isn't staffed to do so and village by village efforts are a waste. Just look how the Northaven and East Hampton projects couldn't get off the ground. I'm only saying that this one can probably be taken on face value. I don't believe there is a bigger agenda in play here no matter how much we try to read the tea leafs.

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[mike rossi]

I did read your link and while there maybe antis on CTF there are also hunters. Assuming that the antis won how would a broke state manage the herd? The DEC isn't staffed to do so and village by village efforts are a waste. Just look how the Northaven and East Hampton projects couldn't get off the ground. I'm only saying that this one can probably be taken on face value. I don't believe there is a bigger agenda in play here no matter how much we try to read the tea leafs.

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I will put my 2 cents in.

 

BOW is not broke, and it would not violate anything if the state used BOW money for non lethal strategies. Recently, because of public outcry, the state redesigned its mute swan management plan to favor non lethal strategies. Part of the revised plan did call for local governments and/or animal rights organizations to foot some of the bill to implement and  administer these strategies.  

[eagle rider]

The state has a new Tapanzee project that isn't 1/3 of the way across the Hudson and its $1 Billion over budget already. They'll be raiding all the coffers to pay off that one before tolls can go up even a nickel. BOW funds are an annual budget target like everything else. It's use or loose and then don't ask for more next year. I also think trying to play out a deer issue like a federally regulated waterfowl species is like comparing apples to oranges. I can't even think of one example where the same logic was ever borrowed from one program to the other. If you know of one please pass it on.

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[mike rossi]

The state has a new Tapanzee project that isn't 1/3 of the way across the Hudson and its $1 Billion over budget already. They'll be raiding all the coffers to pay off that one before tolls can go up even a nickel. BOW funds are an annual budget target like everything else. It's use or loose and then don't ask for more next year. I also think trying to play out a deer issue like a federally regulated waterfowl species is like comparing apples to oranges. I can't even think of one example where the same logic was ever borrowed from one program to the other. If you know of one please pass it on.

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BOW funds are protected from "sweeping" by NY state finance law. If NY breaks its own law, they forfeit federal funding, indefinitely. 

 

Most states BOW are funded about 75% by hunters dollars. The other 25 % comes from non game programs that also do not come from the general fund. NY does a little better than 75% due to all the licenses and land. Again, that money cannot fund the bridge and all that..... 

 

Mute swans are not federally regulated. They are not native, not migratory, and not endangered or threatened, therefore they are not managed by the FWS. The FWS has no part in the NY mute swan management plan. 

 

I will give you the example you are asking for: the states BOW fund is so healthy, that every other state office borrows from it via the  the short term  investment pool (stip). You can thank those (politicians and sportsmen) who set up lifetime licenses in a separate account several years ago. 

[eagle rider]

Who managed the BOW funds in NY? Is it under the OSC or the DEC?

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

Just a guess, and maybe a little rooted in the number of deer skeletons I found while turkey hunting.... maybe, just maybe the deer biologists are killing two birds with one stone here.  First to crimp some more of the doe population and overall take some pressure off bucks during the early and late seasons in certain units.  This might allow buck numbers to start coming up.  These units would start to produce more bucks over time.  Its a deer biologist driven regulation.  

The units listed in Region 8 are some of the highest buck density areas in the state, with some of the best bucks in the state.

[eagle rider]

I'm reaching out to the deer biologist in my region to see what he has to say about this.

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[Doc]

I did read your link and while there maybe antis on CTF there are also hunters. Assuming that the antis won how would a broke state manage the herd? The DEC isn't staffed to do so and village by village efforts are a waste. Just look how the Northaven and East Hampton projects couldn't get off the ground. I'm only saying that this one can probably be taken on face value. I don't believe there is a bigger agenda in play here no matter how much we try to read the tea leafs.

I'm not saying that the DEC is exercising an agenda of their own, but simply creating proposals, regulations, and rules based not on their biological data, but instead on the recommendations of laymen who are selected from a group of people predominantly with an anti-deer agenda. So while we are imagining that the DEC is applying all these biological principles, studies and research in establishing seasons, regulations and deer density, it appears that those decisions are really being controlled by all kinds of people with all kinds of non-biological agendas that may not necessarily be of benefit to the deer herd. So while we are envisioning a trained, educated, and expert staff of DEC personnel applying their expertise to manage the size of the herd, it appears that they have abrogated those responsibilities to a small group of people that consist mostly of those with vested interests in keeping herd sizes as low as the public will tolerate. At least that is the way it appears if you read the webpage that I linked. The problem with letting those people dictate deer density goals, is that you begin to get ridiculous proposals like have been mentioned just so that the CTF goals can be met.

 

If you are saying that the DEC is incapable of managing the herd, I don't believe the answer is to turn management over to a handful of untrained people that would just as soon that there be no such thing as a deer. Do you think that is a great idea? .... I don't

[Doc]

I'm reaching out to the deer biologist in my region to see what he has to say about this.

I would suggest that you more thoroughly examine the details of the DEC web page on CTFs so that you ask the right questions and understand if someone is trying to tell you something other than what they have indicated on their own page. Because I have to say that what they have described there on that page looks to me like they are trying to hand off deer management decisions that should be made in their own shop.

[dbHunterNY]

earn a buck makes sense............how many guys won't even hunt that portion because they have no need or desire to kill a doe?......make it mandatory in order to get that buck tag..

 

I know of a lot that procrastinate shooting a doe because they think opportunity will continue to be there.  as the season rolls on that turns out not to be the case.  maybe they figure it'll cause those that are normally willing to take a doe to be rushed into doing so sooner.  they're all about baby steps.  if harvest doesn't increase enough they might consider it for those areas mentioned in lake plains, finger lakes, and southeastern portions.