.410

[chemonkey86]

I know I'll probably get some harsh comments ts from this but why has NY not opened up a .410 for deer hunting yet. I know previously it was not allowed due to the fact you can chamber and fire a rifle round , others claim it doesn't have the knock down power. Yet still my 870 is as accurate as a .243 at 75 yards and still plenty of power to drop a deer with an ethical shot. I've personally felt the .410 to be a good all around gun. Just wish they would make changes to accommodate such a well balanced gun. Let the bashing begin.....lol

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[Marion]

A 410 is a pea shooter

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[jjb4900]

I don't think they're too concerned about guys shooting rifle cartridges out of them...........heck, that would probably help thin out the less desirable gene pools.

[rotorooter23]

.410 is a good all around small game load. not so for deer.  Ballistics, bullet size, energy are all not that great for deer. There are better choices even if you are looking at the recoil aspect of it.

[shawnhu]

I know I'll probably get some harsh comments ts from this but why has NY not opened up a .410 for deer hunting yet. I know previously it was not allowed due to the fact you can chamber and fire a rifle round , others claim it doesn't have the knock down power. Yet still my 870 is as accurate as a .243 at 75 yards and still plenty of power to drop a deer with an ethical shot. I've personally felt the .410 to be a good all around gun. Just wish they would make changes to accommodate such a well balanced gun. Let the bashing begin.....lol

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Have you studied the ballistic characteristics of the .410 vs a .243? Sometimes it's not all about hitting a red dot at 75 yards and calling it good enough.

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[Mr VJP]

Some .410's are designed to shoot shot shells as well as .45 Colt.  If the gun is designed for it, it isn't a safety issue.  Most .410's will not shoot anything but the shot shell safely though.

 

I don't think that is the reason they are frowned on for deer hunting.  It has to do with it's limitations.  With a good .410 slug, the firearm has the energy to be capable of killing deer at limited range.  It may even be a good choice for a very small young hunter, or a small woman, due to it's low recoil and muzzle blast.

 

That being said, it really only qualifies for deer if shots are kept within it's range limitations.  Bow hunters are well aware of the range they can effectively kill deer, and usually practice a lot.  But many gun hunters think their firearm can effectively shoot farther than it really can.  IMHO, the .410 slug gun is limited to 50 yards or less for deer hunting.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/410_magnum.html

 

I don't care how "balanced" a gun is. The .410 has INADEQUATE energy to ethically harvest a whitetail. I have a couple very well balanced and accurate .22LR rifles too. They could take deer.

 

Buy another gun, You won't see that legal here in NY

[Mr VJP]

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/410_magnum.html

 

I don't care how "balanced" a gun is. The .410 has INADEQUATE energy to ethically harvest a whitetail. I have a couple very well balanced and accurate .22LR rifles too. They could take deer.

 

Buy another gun, You won't see that legal here in NY

 

Some of the handgun cartridges legally allowed for deer hunting in NY have less energy than the 3" .410 slug.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Some of the handgun cartridges legally allowed for deer hunting in NY have less energy than the 3" .410 slug.

oh I agree. Remember when it had to be more than a 25 caliber center fire?

 

I really look at the 800-900 foot pounds to evaluate caliber and range for deer.  

[Mr VJP]

I used to do the same, but with the advances in bullet technology, I'm not so sure that much is needed for bullet penetration anymore.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I used to do the same, but with the advances in bullet technology, I'm not so sure that much is needed for bullet penetration anymore.

I can't put a .410 Foster slug in that advanced technology category. It doesn't meet that at the muzzle.

[Larry]

I found this ballistic testing of several 410 slugs. The guy may have a point looks like the 410 has about the same muzzle energy as a 44mag or a 41mag. I would like to see some down range testing. Don’t get me wrong I’m not advocating using a 410 for deer just found the ballistics interesting.

 

Ballistic Testing of Select 410 slugs.
Remington Sluggers, Winchester Rifled Slug, Federal Rifled Slug, Modified Brenneke Silver Slug*

Testing 410 slugs in the Winchester 9410.

The shooting bench (click to enlarge)

The targets (click to enlarge)

Condition and Equipment Used.

Firearm: Winchester 9410 2.5 inch 410 shotgun with a 24inch cylinder bore.

Range: 25yards to target and phone books

Targets: For chronograph was simply targets for aim, all shot were pumpkin on a fence post. The phone books were three Cleveland phone books taped together with several wraps of duck tape and then soaked overnight in bucket full of water. Redneck ballistic gel. Where far from a perfect target wet phone books do usually cause bullets to expand and makes slug recovery fairly straight forward.

Conditions: Beautiful morning, sunny and about 72F little or no wind.

Chronograph: Alpha Chony with passive sky screen and remote interface (not in picture)

 

Remington Sluggers

5 shot group at 25 yards (click to enlarge)

Chrono Testing 5 shots

Low Velocity:1809fps
Hight Velocity:1827fps
Average velocity: 1817fps
Extreme Spreed:17.75
Std. Deviation:6.32
Manufacture Spec: 1830fps
Measure Mass: 96.1gr
Manufacture Spec 1/5oz (87.5gr)
Calculated Muzzle Energy: 704.3ft-lbs

Notes: Very consistent velocity. Also probably the tightest grouping slug fired from my Winchester 9410. 

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

Impact with wet phone books

Penetration: ~2.5inches
These were the shallowest penetration of all the slugs. As you can see in the pictures they made a very nasty entrance hole and were stopped at the about the back cover of the first phone book.

 

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)
 

Slug 1: 96.5gr (100%)
Slug 2: 95.7gr (99%)

Notes: Slug 1 actually weight slightly more than the sampled slugs I had weighted. Just a few tenth of a grain but this indicates that there may be some variability in Remington slug manufacturing. The slugs broke up pretty good on impact but had penetrated very straight into the phone books. 

Winchester Rifled Slug 2.5 inch shell

5 shot group at 25 yards (click to enlarge)

Chrono Testing 5 shots

Low Velocity:1792fps
Hight Velocity:1917fps
Average velocity: 1855fps
Extreme Spreed:124.0
Std. Deviation:44.84
Manufacture Spec: 1830fps
Measure Mass: 92.8gr
Manufacture Spec 1/5oz (87.5gr)
Calculated Muzzle Energy: 708.9ft-lbs

Notes: The lightest slug tested and the worst for velocity consistency of the three unmodified loads tested. 

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

Impact with wet phone books

Penetration: ~3.0inches
These were the second shallowest penetration of all the slugs. As you can see in the pictures they made much smaller entrance holes compared to the Remington Sluggers and were stopped just into the second phone book.

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

Slug 1: 90.9gr (98%)
Slug 2: 91.7gr (99%)

Notes: These slugs expanded the poorest, as you can see from the pictures they broke into two pieces and expanded very unsymmetrical and thus their penetration deviated as they went into the phone books. 

Federal Rifled Slug
2.5 inch shell

5 shot group at 25 yards (click to enlarge)

Chrono Testing 5 shots

Low Velocity:1714fps
Hight Velocity:1742fps
Average velocity: 1728fps
Extreme Spreed:27.64
Std. Deviation:10.77
Manufacture Spec: 1775fps
Measure Mass: 109.0gr
Manufacture Spec 1/4oz (109.4gr)
Calculated Muzzle Energy: 722.5ft-lbs

Notes: Good consistent velocity and the heaviest of the true foster slugs tested. Unfortunately the worse grouping out of my Winchester 9410. Also note the wad in the lower right hole in target spot. Also in the extreme right bottom you can see were another one of the wads went through the target. I think this heavy plastic wad Federal uses make be the reason the accuracy suffers, likely cause by the way the was and slug separate at the muzzle. 

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

Impact with wet phone books

Penetration: ~4.0inches
These slug penetrated best of the true foster slugs tested. They penetrated to the center of the second phone book.

 

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)
 

Slug 1: 106.4gr (97.6%)
Slug 2: 91.7gr (96.7%)

Notes: These slugs expanded very nice. Unlike the Remington sluggers that produce the small slug the detaches in the center the Federal slug due to a reasonable large hollow point turn into rings and produce large internal holes in the phone book with good penetration. 

Modified Brenneke Silver Slug*
3.0 inches shells modified down to 2.5 inch shell*

5 shot group at 25 yards (click to enlarge)

Chrono Testing 5 shots

Low Velocity:1985fps
Hight Velocity:2103fps
Average velocity: 2043fps
Extreme Spreed:118.0
Std. Deviation:55.33
Manufacture Spec: 1755fps
Measure Mass: 114.9gr
Manufacture Spec (114gr)
Calculated Muzzle Energy: 1065ft-lbs

Notes: Tremendous amount of Kinetic energy compared to the other slugs tested. The inconsistency in velocity is likely due to the after market role crimps I do after modifying them to work in the Winchester 9410. 

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

Impact with wet phone books

Penetration: ~6.0+ inches
The energy and hardness of these slugs gave them the best penetration. Only one was recover almost through the third phone book. The other slug exited the third phone book and was lost, like due to weakening of the phone book due to a near by hit.

slug impact with wet phone books. (click to enlarge)

Slug 1: 106.4gr (97.6%)

Notes: The slug recovered did not expand hardly at all. Unlike the other foster slugs the Brenneke slug with its attached gas seal appears to be made of a much harder alloy. The combination of the highest Kinetic energy, heavies slug and hard alloy gave this slug the best penetration of the slugs tested. 

*Details on modified Brenneke Slugs for use in Winchester 9410.

Click here to return to index

 

[Larry]

here's some more 410 info.

 

2) Does the weapon have the effective range for the terrain and the discipline of the hunter?

The first part of this question is relatively easy. The 410 slug is a short range weapon, plain and simple. There is no doing anything to make it shoot further. Even if you can accurate shoot a little 410 slug out to 200 yards it has run out of enough kinetic energy for deer long before it gets that far. The light weight 410 slug has a very poor ballistic coefficient and thus has lost nearly half of there energy 50-60 yards down range. With the lightest Remington and Winchester 2.5 inch slugs I would not recommend going over 50 maybe 60yard and even then you need to have a good accurate hit. With the heavier Federal, 3inch Winchester or Brenneke slugs you might stretch it to 75 yards but no further. So if you’re going to hunt deer with the 410 slug you should be hunting for close range shots. If all your shots end up being longer range shots I would suggest picking another gun.

This short range restriction prompts the second half of this question, the hunter’s discipline. Even in the heaviest cover with the most rolling and broken terrain you are going to have the occasion long shot. You might have been hunting that particular property for 20years and have never taken a shot further than 50yards. The first time you go out with your 410 slug gun your going to have a fluke line up of some recent storm damage that opens up a 120 yard lane in what was normal heavy cover and sure enough you will be standing at one end and the biggest most beautiful buck you have ever seen will be standing at the other end. Yes, you are going to have to have the discipline to pass on that shot. If you can’t pass on the shot in a situation like that then don’t limit yourself by using the 410 slug. If you can live with that possibility then read on.

 

[wolc123]

Unless you were in danger of starving and have no better weapon available, I would not recommend a 410 for deer.   It will get the job done if you are close enough.  Some folks could probably kill a deer with their bare hands.  I once brought down a big doe, that was wide awake after having been temporarily unconscious from striking her head on a car,  by slitting her throat with a 1-1/4" blade key-chain knife.  Fortunately, it was brand-new and extremely sharp.  I had a much tougher time this past winter finishing off a small button buck in a similar situation with my old Buck 110 lock-blade hunting knife that was badly in need of sharpening after a "busy" season.  Just like a sharp blade on a little knife is better, I suppose a little bullet in the right spot is better, but you will definitely run out of energy at about 50 yards with a 410 slug.  

 

Thank you for bringing up the 410 however, for it reminded me that I have one and lots of #6's available.   That is what I should take out for squirrels this weekend.  With all the leafs still on the trees, it will give me much better odds of getting enough for a meal than the .22  that I was planning on using.   I don't plan on chasing deer until x-bow opens in the Northern zone in a couple more weeks.  We have been hitting the venison so hard the past several weeks to make room for the new stuff in the freezer, that a some squirrel will be a welcome change. With the cold front moving in, and acorns aplenty, the 410/squirrel action should be real good this weekend.    

 

Normally, I like to use a .22 for squirrels as it also gives me good marksmanship practice for deer hunting.   Shooting deer with a scoped center-fire rifle or crossbow gets as easy as shooting ducks in a barrel after you hone your skills enough on squirrels with the 22.   Squirrels provide much more realistic practice than paper targets or cans plus are great eating.  Right now it is the eating that concerns me more than the practice (I have had plenty of that this summer with the girls and their bb guns shooting cans), so the 410 it will be.  I probably would buy some slugs for if I found them as you never know when you might run across a coyote while squirrel hunting.       

[wolc123]

Unless you were in danger of starving and have no better weapon available, I would not recommend a 410 for deer.   It will get the job done if you are close enough.  Some folks could probably kill a deer with their bare hands.  I once brought down a big doe, that was wide awake after having been temporarily unconscious from striking her head on a car,  by slitting her throat with a 1-1/4" blade key-chain knife.  Fortunately, it was brand-new and extremely sharp.  I had a much tougher time this past winter finishing off a small button buck in a similar situation with my old Buck 110 lock-blade hunting knife that was badly in need of sharpening after a "busy" season.  Just like a sharp blade on a little knife is better, I suppose a little bullet in the right spot is better, but you will definitely run out of energy at about 50 yards with a 410 slug.  

 

Thank you for bringing up the 410 however, for it reminded me that I have one and lots of #6's available.   That is what I should take out for squirrels this weekend.  With all the leafs still on the trees, it will give me much better odds of getting enough for a meal than the .22  that I was planning on using.   I don't plan on chasing deer until x-bow opens in the Northern zone in a couple more weeks.  We have been hitting the venison so hard the past several weeks to make room for the new stuff in the freezer, that a some squirrel will be a welcome change. With the cold front moving in, and acorns aplenty, the 410/squirrel action should be real good this weekend.    

 

Normally, I like to use a .22 for squirrels as it also gives me good marksmanship practice for deer hunting.   Shooting deer with a scoped center-fire rifle or crossbow gets as easy as shooting ducks in a barrel after you hone your skills enough on squirrels with the 22.   Squirrels provide much more realistic practice than paper targets or cans plus are great eating.  Right now it is the eating that concerns me more than the practice (I have had plenty of that this summer with the girls and their bb guns shooting cans), so the 410 it will be.  I probably would buy some slugs for if I found them as you never know when you might run across a coyote while squirrel hunting.       

[Dinsdale]

Have a bunch of Brenneke 28 ga slugs and a barrel with sights....

Someday I'm gonna head down south where 410's and 28's are legal for deer.

[Pygmy]

The shotgun regs were created many,many years ago, probably around 1938 or 1939 when we had our first deer seasons here in western NY and it was decided that it should be shotgun only..Somebody made the decision then that the small gauges weren't adequate..

Probably the main reason that .410s or 28s aren't legal now is lack of interest..

Poll a few hundred hunters and ask how many would use a .410 for deer if it was legal..Chances are not many people would because there are so many better choices out there.

Ever see a .410 set for deer hunting with rifle sights, or perhaps a rifled barrel.?.I don't think any of the gun mfgs make one, even though the .410 with slugs is legal in some states.

[BigVal]

Why would you want to use a .410 for deer?

[Pygmy]

Why would you want to use a .410 for deer?

Case in point....

That is what 298 people out of 300 would say....

[Larry]

I’m not advocating using a 410 for deer just found the ballistics interesting. I'm it to ballistics and I wouldn't use a 410 on deer. if you want to know what I use on deer. I use a 444 marlin or a 12ga fully rifled 870 plenty of gun there.

[wolc123]

I am guessing he wants to "challenge" himself.  There seems to be lots hunters who like doing that.  During archery season, they will use a long-bow, during ML, a flintlock with open sights.   It makes sense that these folks would want to try the smallest gun legally allowed during gun season.  Some will even take only "head shots" at their quarry, as the smaller target is a bigger challenge to hit.   As a pure "killer" and meat-hunter, I cant relate to that kind of logic at all.   I don't want to give the deer any extra chance, or risk wounding one so I can "challenge" myself.  I always want to make it as easy as legally possible to get a clean kill every time, and to do it at reasonable cost.  That is mostly out of respect for the animal, and the excellent food it provides my family.

 

Even though "challenging" myself  to kill deer is not my cup of tea, I do respect those who do go to those lengths to harvest deer.   The dedication required to become proficient in more primitive and/or less lethal weapons is considerable, and most folks I know that do it put in a lot of time and do ok with one hand tied behind their back.        

[Buckmaster7600]

I mainly gun hunt with a 10mm Glock which most would consider marginal at best as a deer cartridge. And I would not consider a 410. The problem is too small of a projectile traveling too slow Will it kill a deer? absolutely but it will have a very small margin for error.

[Mr VJP]

It's true a .410 slug is light, but it travels fast.  Penetration is the problem.  If the right slug isn't used, it may break apart on impact.

 

http://mcb-homis.com/deer9410/

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I guess a 410 slug would be like loading a 41rem with a 90gn bullet and pushing upwards of 1800fps doable yes, practical to deer not at all! If they were to load some in the 180gn range and slow them to 13 or 1400 fps it would just about be a perfect short range deer cartridge!

[wolc123]

I am going out for squirrels with my .410 again this afternoon.  I saw one briefly last week but couldn't get a shot before he disappeared in all the leaves.   There are still too many leaves on the trees for good .22 rim-fire squirrel hunting.  Hopefully this cold snap will bring down some leaves and bring out some more squirrels.