Lifetime license revenues

[mike rossi]

It doesn't die. It changes. Evolves per say.

 

Very true.... 

[mike rossi]

Hesitant to jump into the middle of this, but want to make sure I understand.

From what has been written, annual license fees go into the DEC spending pot and lifetime license fees go into an interest bearing vehicle with the interest being available for the DEC spending pot. That being the case, I don't understand Mike's distaste for lifetime licenses.

Phade used the example of a lifetime license generating the following revenue: $765 @ 5% = $38.25. That's for the lifetime sportsman license, which included small/big game, turkey and fishing.

Alternately, there is the Hunting lifetime for $535. Using the same 5% return (which I think is a little high for the current market, but will use is anyway)the annual revenue it $26.75.

An annual hunting license is only $22. The DEC actually does $4.75 more income on a lifetime license.

For all privileges of the sportsman (hunt, turkey, fish) you would pay $57/year vs.the theoretical income of $38.25. Seem like a loss - however, that lifetime license forces every hunter to buy all three items. If they get it just for deer and turkey, for example, they also pay for fishing. Now the state actually receives $38.25 as opposed to an annual fee of $32. I don't know how many lifetime sportsman holders do or do not take advantage of all three license privileges (or how many would not have if buying individually on an annual basis). That's a calculated risk that still seems to tip in favor of lifetime income.

On top of that is the already mentioned point. The lifetime payment is all up-front. It continues to generate that annual fee whether or not the person hunts and long after the person is deceased. Seems like a good idea all around.

The income generated seems to be at least the same, and probably more (definitely more over the long term). How does that cause the environment to die?

 

 

If my memory serves me, it was about 6 months ago, maybe a year ago, that the DEC received its FIRST interest dividend. The amount was nowhere near the revenue collected. Not sure when the lifetime license was launched, or what year the big promotion for it was, but it was a while ago. 

 

From statements made by DEC staff, upper level management, the department is not able to carry out certain projects and is also unable to obtain matching federal grants because they are operating in part on interest. They must be getting a pretty good interest rate for it to be worth forfeiting a 3:1 matching dollar program they do not have to repay. 

 

If the whitetail deer population was facing a disease threat that would cause them to die off or not grow antlers bigger than 3 inches, you would not want the DEC to wait for an interest dividend would you? 

 

On the game species side of things, the DEC would like to boost the turkey population. There are also concerns with many non-game species such as the rusty blackbird, the bog turtle, the woodrat, the monarch butterfly, native bees, the European honeybee, the pirate perch, and many others. Threats to species or the environment are like cancer, the sooner it is treated, the better the chance of recovery. or, if you prefer an economic analogy, if you don't invest in car maintenance the repair bills are more costly. 

 

I am going to rest my case right here. This is a subject I was interested in  at a time when it may have been possible to do something about it, but I am no longer interested in. 

[Lawdwaz]

I've always been curious of the Lifetime License history................IIRC I got mine in 2002, thinking I was doing something good for me AND New York State sportsman & women.  Little did I know they wouldn't get beans out of the interest.................

 

Oh well, at least I made out on the deal.   Lord knows I'm getting nothing out of my REAL personal investments these days.  I knew I should have listened to Papist....................................

[jrm]

If my memory serves me, it was about 6 months ago, maybe a year ago, that the DEC received its FIRST interest dividend.

<snip>

 

I am going to rest my case right here. This is a subject I was interested in  at a time when it may have been possible to do something about it, but I am no longer interested in.

Thanks for the information. Looks like it is more complicated than it appears on the surface.

If that's the case, I see your point. Looks like typical government mismanagement. If you collect an amount at the end of 2014 and place it in an interest bearing instrument, you are supposed to receive that interest in 2015 (and each year thereafter). If they aren't receiving that interest, there is something wrong.

I don't think that invalidates the concept of a lifetime license, as the math should work. The problem seems to be with the administration of funds collects or some "creative" accounting that routes the interest and/or principal somewhere else. Frankly, if they manage the lifetime revenues that poorly, it doesn't give me much faith that the annual license revenues are managed any better.

Maybe some of that money is paying the pensions for Skelos and Sliver while they are in jail? NY is so corrupt it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited February 23, 2016 by jrm

[G-Man]

Is the intrest even applicable for matching grants as it comes from general fund and not licence sales... it's a technicalit but one those lawyer's love... imo it's a very botched system

[Buckmaster7600]

Does anyone remember what a lifetime super sportsman cost I think I got it in 03 or 02?

[mlammerhirt]

998?? With lifetime bow and muzzleloader was the price before the increase 5-7 years ago

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[Buckmaster7600]

998?? With lifetime bow and muzzleloader was the price before the increase 5-7 years ago

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That sounds about right. I guess I am ahead of the game already. now what NY did or does with the money who knows but I bet I wouldn't approve.

[Lawdwaz]

Does anyone remember what a lifetime super sportsman cost I think I got it in 03 or 02?

 

In Sept 2002 I paid $500 for Sportsman, $125 for Archery and $125 for Muzzleloader for a grand total of $750 smackers. 

 

At this point, my yearly average "all in" price per year is a tick under $54/year. 

 

 

 

Next year the average will be another tick less..........

[mike rossi]

There are certain things mentioned in posts number 9 and 32 that seem to be reasonable and may be valid points which  I may have not fully considered.  I am considering using this information in future articles.

 

I would be less hesitant to use them if you can explain how you arrived at those conclusions, and, giving me your real name and where you live would better bolster your credibility.

 

Otherwise, it requires me fact checking what you are saying from square one instead of square two. 

[mike rossi]

Thanks for the information. Looks like it is more complicated than it appears on the surface.

If that's the case, I see your point. Looks like typical government mismanagement. If you collect an amount at the end of 2014 and place it in an interest bearing instrument, you are supposed to receive that interest in 2015 (and each year thereafter). If they aren't receiving that interest, there is something wrong.

I don't think that invalidates the concept of a lifetime license, as the math should work. The problem seems to be with the administration of funds collects or some "creative" accounting that routes the interest and/or principal somewhere else. Frankly, if they manage the lifetime revenues that poorly, it doesn't give me much faith that the annual license revenues are managed any better.

Maybe some of that money is paying the pensions for Skelos and Sliver while they are in jail? NY is so corrupt it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Maybe they do collect the interest as you indicate, but I don't remember it being reported that it was done as such.

 

I don't know if it pays the Legislature's pensions, but I am curious about who pays the pensions of DEC staff when they retire. If it is taxpayers, better hope Patrick Kwan and Casey Phieffer don't find out. 

 

Is the intrest even applicable for matching grants as it comes from general fund and not licence sales... it's a technicalit but one those lawyer's love... imo it's a very botched system

 

If I was judge or jury I would interpret the existing assent law as this to be a diversion of license revenue. Apparently however, the DEC remains eligible for PR grants. 

 

That sounds about right. I guess I am ahead of the game already. now what NY did or does with the money who knows but I bet I wouldn't approve.

 

The revenue from lifetime licenses is turned over to the State Comptroller (Tom DiNapoli)  who puts it into the "Short Term Investment Pool", which is better known as "STIP". Short term does not mean it is returned to the DEC and it is not returned. 

 

After a specified time period, a specified (percentage) of interests reverts back to one of the conservation fund accounts. As I remember it, and I might be wrong, the DEC does NOT get all of the earned interest, but rather a percentage of it. Don't take my word for this, I am not sure if I am remembering it all and even if I am things change, sometimes behind closed doors. (This would be a good investigative project for all you young republican studs on this site).

[mlammerhirt]

I just quickly looked up when the lifetime fees went up and I found some info. On a town of Conesus web page stating that in 08-09 the Sportsman fee was 600, bow tag 180, and muzzleloader tag 180...turkey tags, fishing and free doe permits included with the Sportsman purchase....in the 09-10 season the increase was Sportsman 765, bow 235, muzzle 235...no longer free doe tags.

So i paid 960...vs. 1235 the following year.

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[growalot]

We got in on the final year of free doe tags...not sure what we payed but I believe I heard Mr B. say our son got everything and it was around 1200.00...I just got the sportsman and bow Mr B got the sportsman and muzzle....Very glad doe tags are free.

[mike rossi]

All I have to say is this:

 

If you advocates of investment are correct in that this ensures stable, permanent funding for the DEC, and maybe you are correct;  then the  pheasant stocking program is not only secure but prepaid,  therefore, closure of Reynolds should make anyone who holds a lifetime license and hunts pheasants members of a class action lawsuit against the state..... 

 

 

 

 

[magnumhunt]

Would someone know if you purchased a Lifetime License and move out of state would they still issue you the permit?

[Elmo]

Would someone know if you purchased a Lifetime License and move out of state would they still issue you the permit?

 

I believe they do.

[Grouse]

If I recall correctly, even if you move out of state, you still get the lifetime license privileges for life.

[mlammerhirt]

You deff can

..know a guy who lives in Maryland....has a nys lifetime license since he was young, and comes back to hunt each year.

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[shawnhu]

It's a huge selling point the DEC tries to push for those unsure about living in NY later down the road but still wants to hunt here. Most lifetime licenses pay for themselves after 15 yrs or so, but much faster if you were to move out of state and still hunt in NY.

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[mike rossi]

Here are three videos:

 

One is Cuomo and Martens on life time licenses.

 

Another is a breakdown comparing the amount of money spent on annual licenses compared to a life time license. Remember, though, this video is about Florida, the dollars that COUNT are what goes to conservation, in NY only the interest from lifetime license revenue goes to conservation. So the total spent on annual licenses should be compared to the interest on Lifetime Licenses for NY. Comparing the total revenue annual licenses with total revenue lifetime does not compare amounts available for conservation...

 

The short video is someones idea of a joke.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bendog]

Yes, with a NY license you can leave the state and it is still valid.....that's not the case in Pennsylvania, where a lifetime license becomes invalid if you depart the state....in my mind that's a bad business move and impacts lifetime license sales in the Keystone State....

[mike rossi]

I want to point out the irony of the Florida video.... 

 

For half the video it seems he only has a one dimensional perspective and that is - from the viewpoint of saving money..... 

 

Then, he makes several references to conservation funding, suggesting he has some understanding of the role of license revenue in conservation funding. He then infers the Florida Lifetime License is a boost to conservation funding.  

 

However, all the numbers he presented were savings to the individual hunter. With the information he gave, those savings only represents a lose in conservation revenue to the state of Florida. If Florida has an investment scheme like NY, he never mentioned it. He never backed up his claim that this regime was good for the state wildlife agency. 

 

He may have reasons which support his claim that he neglected to include. But it is more likely he is talking out of his hat without thinking like so many hunters and anti hunters do.

 

What makes this especially ironic, is that although he gave this enough thought to compile an interactive spreadsheet and analyze various scenarios and calculate savings, break even points, and point of diminishing return; in his summary analysis he contradicts himself, and publishes the video without even realizing it.... 

 

 

[mike rossi]

Another thing I think is interesting is in the Governor's video he answers a question about what happens if the lifetime license sales do very well. His answer was that they were not expecting a "wind fall". I don't know the threshold were a "wind fall" starts, but thinking back to when this was all starting,  and considering what is being reported  presently,  think the initial sales were greater then they expected. 

[growalot]

Let me see, lets say 500.00 basic, at 4 yrs of age x's a mere 1,000 parents, purchasing for just one child. Collecting what ever the going interest rate for investment made.

Realistic estimates in this day and age of say, 10% of those 1,000 kids ever going on to become long term hunters or even say 5 year hunters. That being the time they are of legal age to hunt and living at home.

 

So when plugging in those numbers...Where is the down side to the states conservation fund? All I see is they received funds  to collect interest from...if managed properly... where they would never have received funds in the first place considering social trends.

[Bendog]

NY does have an investment program and recently altered it dramatically to boost revenues....will update in an upcoming issue of New York Outdoor News, but it's substantial and good news for sportsmen and women...